For the past 20 years, While Heaven Wept has kept some sort of
presence in the metal underground. The mastermind behind the band
is guitarist/songwriter Tom Phillips, who also used to do vocals
and keyboard work on the previous albums. The band just recently
released their third studio album, “Vast Oceans Lachrymose,” which
has the band embracing their thrash roots and pushing themselves
further away from the doom metal moniker that was stamped on the
band in their early years. In a recent interview with Died 4 Metal
, Phillips discussed the band’s new album, his negative views of
the band being labeled power metal, the hardships that have been
caused by illegal downloading, and much more.
Heavytothecore2: Could you tell me a little bit about the band,
for those unaware?
Tom Phillips: Twenty years ago, we kicked this off with the
intention to expand past some of the boundaries of our previous
project. At this time, of course, thrash was in full swing and we
(the music scene) were about to make the transition into death
metal as far as the whole trends scenario was concerned. But of
course, we were coming from a whole different place than that. We
were playing classic metal, as they would call it now, doom and
progressive metal, kind of all blended together. We were kind of
going against the grain, but we were still very aware of things
happening in the world of thrash and extreme metal.
Over this last two decades, I think we’ve gone through more people
than any band in history. I’ve lost tracked, but last time I
checked Metal Archives, it said it was 63 people. We’ve released
three full-length albums during this time and a plethora of EP’s,
7’, double vinyl compilations from the first decade; it’s really a
lot to keep track of, to be honest with you.
Heavytothecore2: The band just released their latest album “Vast
Oceans Lachrymose” (VOL). What makes the album so significant to
the band’s history?
Tom: There were some big changes that kind of came out of
nowhere, as far as the line-up is concerned. I started singing for
the band in 1992 and after about 16 or 17 years, I stepped aside
and brought in another vocalist, which is a huge thing. I don’t
know how familiar you are with the back catalog, but for most of
our existence, people have referred to us as epic doom. In fact,
pretty much since we started, it’s only been us and Solitude
(Solitude Aeturnus) from the United States that took up that flag.
The irony about this whole album is that this is supposedly an epic
doom metal band that just released an album that has no doom metal
on it, so that’s significant. This is spearheading the whole
celebration of our 20th anniversary and there are all sorts of
crazy facts about this album. The fact is, it goes back to about
1994 when we were first were even talking about this album. Some of
this material that’s included on the album was always intended to
be part of that album and of course, over the years, some things
have changed and evolved.
Our last album (“Of Empires Forlorn”) came out six years ago and
that one did very well for us. What a lot of people don’t realize
is all the material you’re hearing on “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” was
written before that album was even recorded. Most of the material
dates back quite a ways, but this is a testament to some people
sticking to their guns and following through no matter what fate
throws at us. There are a lot of things that are pretty interesting
about the album and I think it’s really misunderstood, especially
here in the United States, but pretty much universally I think as
well.
Heavytothecore2: Ok…
Tom: What I mean by that, just to clarify, is for some reason,
in the United States, people hear it and say it sounds like power
metal. The fact is we hate that stuff; we’ve always hated it. Where
the fast and melodic stuff comes from is Holy Terror and Forbidden
and melodic thrash like Artillery. We’re not into that happy metal
at all and I think it’s a misnomer, but I think people that are
familiar with power metal equate it with power metal and those that
are familiar with us all these years that are coming from the doom
metal scene, they hear doom metal. People who are coming from a
more progressive scene are hearing progressive metal. The fact is
it’s all of that and none of that. It’s been interesting, the
reaction, because basically in the states we’ve been panned, like
usual, but in Europe, it’s one of the biggest albums of last
year.
Heavytothecore2: You said “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” was written
before “Of Empires Forlorn.” So looking at the band’s current
direction, where do you see yourselves heading; more with the
former or the latter?
Tom: Neither. Musically, the situation is that there’s always
been a key set of influences and elements to While Heaven Wept that
made it what it is. It’s always had a strong
neo-classical/neo-romantic aspect, very orchestrated, heavy, epic,
some space elements in there and some progressive aspects, but the
fact is that every album is basically a different ratio of all
those elements and aspects. I was actually scared with this album
because I figured that basically we would alienate our entire
audience, because the majority of it comes from the doom metal
scene for years and here’s an album that’s predominately thrashing,
mid-tempo classic metal with very little doom at all. I guess I
should have had more faith in our audience because they stood by
us.
My point is, all of the albums are completely different from each
other, but at the same time, they totally are interrelated because
of the fact that it’s the same influences that have always been
there. I can tell you already because the next album is already
written and it’s completely different. We’re not a Motörhead or
AC/DC by any means and very few bands can get away with releasing
the same thing over and over again. In some cases, that’s what we
want. We would be pretty upset universally if Motörhead did a
concept progressive album with an orchestra or something, but we’re
not coming from that perspective. We’re coming more from your
Voivod’s and Fates Warning’s where with every album, you don’t know
what you’re doing to get. At least in our case, you know it’s going
to be epic and heavy and melodic; probably not very cheerful
either, but you never know.
Heavytothecore2: “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” is quite an
epic-sounding title. Where did the idea for the title and concept
come from?
Tom: That basically goes back 16 or 17 years. When this band
started, the one thing that was always assured is that I knew the
first album was “Sorrow Of The Angels” and this was kind of an
elaboration on some concepts from that and from the early songs. In
fact, the first song we ever wrote back in 1989, there was a line,
“each day sinking further into a sea of tears.” It’s from that line
that “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” came from, if I recall correctly.
That’s really what it literally translate to; an endless sea of
tears.
That all relates back to the whole concept of the band. I’m sure
that you’ve noticed the lyrics are pretty personal and in fact, all
of our albums and everything we’ve ever done is basically real
life. It’s not some fantasy thing; we’re not telling stories that
are fictional. It’s all real-life experiences, so it’s deep and
this is why we kind of stay under the radar a lot because it’s not
all that comfortable to talk about those things. When it’s all said
and done, “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” represents a time frame of
experiences since “Empires” in a lyrical sense. It’s all the things
that have transpired since then and kind of an overview of this
whole journey.
Heavytothecore2: A lot of the lyrics are personal, so do you
have to be in a certain creative mindset? Do you find yourself
writing in blocks and does that have a part in the long waits
between albums?
Tom: There’s no real rhyme or reason to the way that the songs
come together, but I would say that I do need to be in a certain
state of mind. If nothing else, there needs to be some kind of
catalyst or life experience that influences what comes out of my
fingers or comes out of my head. I don’t sit at a table to write
music or forcefully write lyrics; they come when they do. So, it’s
really is a matter of revelation. I’ll be sitting there playing
music and something will just come from nowhere and that’s all its
basis for everything we do. It’s never, “hey dudes, I’ve got this
riff.” It’s a lot different from that and it’s the same thing with
the lyrics.
I could be anywhere; I could be driving down the road or in a bar.
I mean, half the lyrics on this album are collected from bar
napkins and empty packs of cigarettes or scribbled pieces of paper
torn out of books. Sometimes, it does take years for songs to come
together, and they kind of tell me when it’s ready. It’s clear to
me when something belongs to something else, musically or
lyrically. Other times, it’s a complete statement; it comes out all
at once.
Nothing is every contrived, nothing is ever forced into being. It
just comes out when it does. Once that exoskeleton is established
and it seems to be complete in terms of what I’m hearing or what is
being channeled through me, at that point, I sit down and start
arranging it, orchestrating. That’s the only time that I ever put
thought behind it. The rest of the time, it’s purely emotional; it
has nothing to do with thinking until we start thinking about
counterpoint, orchestration and the instrumentation involved.
Heavytothecore2: I want to discuss Rain Irving coming in as the
new vocalist. With him doing the vocals, did it give you more of a
chance to focus on the guitar?
Tom: There’s a whole bunch of aspects as far as Rain coming in.
There wasn’t a lot in the way of experimentation in a vocal sense
because those melodies have been stuck in my head for years. It
took a lot of weight off my shoulders in the long run. It’s not
that I couldn’t have sung this album or something of that nature,
but there are several things at play here. There was a period,
“Sorrow Of The Angels” and “Of Empires Forlorn,” to a lesser
extent, where these albums were definitely not as progressive or
aggressive; more lush and doom-metal oriented. Therefore, it was
easier to play and sing at the same time, whereas, this material is
much more like some of the earlier material from 1989 and 1990.
Ultimately, it’s just more demanding instrumentally. So, part of it
is going back full circle to the original vision of the band, where
I was just the guitar player and songwriter and not wearing all
these different hats. The music is also kind of come full circle,
but also the other aspect is that I’m thinking more about the live
setting than anything else.
I’m always so torn between two instruments in a live setting; I
guess I’m not a multi-tasker. The point of having a singer is that
I can now focus entirely on my guitar playing. I’ve been playing
guitar for about 30 years, so obviously, that’s more comfortable
for me. I only started singing because I had to. We couldn’t find a
singer that wasn’t nuts or a complete ego-manic or someone that was
into what we were doing. You have to remember; doom metal wasn’t
cool in 1990 or anything melodic whatsoever, because everyone was
all about thrashing and getting more aggressive. For us to be doing
something that is more in the vein of Fates Warning and Crimson
Glory, it just wasn’t cool.
Over the years, on one hand vocally, it was probably more
appropriate for me to sing at a lot of songs since it comes from my
life. In terms of emotional transmission through the lyrics,
there’s probably nobody who can sing them, but that doesn’t mean I
technically the best person to sing the songs. Rain is a world
class singer, first of all, so I know I can rely upon him to go out
there and do what he does best. I can do what I do best and now
we’re able to give 110%, where as before, I would feel stretched
thin. That’s for me was unacceptable because I want to go out and
kill on stage, so that’s part of this.
Another aspect is that I’ve never been a fan of my own vocals
(laughs). I totally have only done it because that was the only
option there was at the time. I know that there are plenty of
people out there that disagree with me. In fact, there is a certain
contingent of our audience that doesn’t want anything to do with
Rain, but I still believe it was the right thing to do. I think it
was the right move to bring him in because he is a world-class
singer along the lines of the people that I consider to be
world-class singers. I’m talking about Dio, Dickinson, Geoff Tate,
John Arch, Ray Alder, Steve Perry, Freddie Mercury. When I think
about singers, I think about those guys, not just your average Joe
like myself. Rain is much more equipped to roll out and deliver the
goods in that capacity, for my ears. I do appreciate that there are
people who still insist they rather have me singing. I keep that in
mind. I miss it in some capacity, but I’m far more comfortable and
happy on my primary instrument.
Heavytothecore2: You said on the band’s MySpace page that “Vast
Oceans Lachrymose” is meant to be heard as a singular album, but
you can download track-by-track on iTunes. Do you think the idea of
listening to an album from front to back is a dying trend?
Tom: God, I hope not man (laughs). This whole concept is just
mind boggling to me. If you can go back to the 80s and 90s, there
was this whole trend in the industry where more and more, you saw
these single-oriented artists where there would be this one amazing
track and the rest of the album was absolutely terrible. That to me
is just criminal, basically. Yeah, there are some disturbing trends
these days. Sometimes, in the past, for a really good album, you
had to work for it. You had to really sit there and invest yourself
and the rewards you would get for experiencing an album in its
entirety and looking at that LP jacket and just immersing yourself
completely in it is a very different thing from the instant
gratification of downloading track 6 to your iPod within 10
seconds.
For me, that’s not how my music is supposed to be heard. Now, we
offered it because we want to give people the option. I strongly
recommend against going for single items, but you know, that’s more
for people who don’t give a shit about you. People that are
generally into it and especially people who have been around long
enough to know where we are coming from, they know by now that
every album is continuous sound from start to finish, except in the
case of “Vast Oceans Lachrymose.” There are some key periods of
silence that are there at a very specific amount, like two seconds
of silence between the end of “The Furthest Shore” and going into
side B with “To Wander The Void.” All of that is very much
intentional. There is nothing random whatsoever about it.
Heavytotheore2: When listening to the album, it seemed to me
that “The Furthest Shore” was such a grandiose masterpiece that the
other songs didn’t live up to that standard. Was that the original
idea to put the most epic song right in the beginning?
Tom: Oh yeah, it’s kind of obnoxious. You have to think about it
from a couple of different perspectives. One, people have been
waiting for six years since the last album, and I figured that we
better have a damn good reason for taking so long between albums,
and that pretty much sums it up right off the bat. I wanted to give
those who have been waiting patiently something that they can
really say, “Ok, I can understand why these guys were gone off in
some tangent for six years.” I’ve listened to plenty of albums
throughout the years, like “2112” and so forth, that’s the way it
was. We hadn’t done a long-form composition like that since our
first album. On the first album, the whole first side is another
epic, while “Empires” was mostly shorter songs. We needed that and
it kind of grew on its own, more than anything else.
There were another eight songs (that were supposed to be) on this
album, which are very diverse and all over the place. They are some
of the best songs, in my opinion, that are the most enjoyable to
play for all of us. However, we didn’t want anything else to
overshadow or take away from what “The Furthest Shore” represents
and what it is. Now that being said, I can understand the
perspective of the album being a bit top heavy, but the fact is
that songs like “To Wander The Void” do is fill another purpose. If
there was a whole album of “The Furthest Shore,” it would be so
overwhelming and suffocating; it would be too much. There needs to
be some kind of variation and something like “To Wander The Void”
makes it clear that this is a heavy metal album and not some kind
of symphonic thing. This is still classic, old-school metal played
by people that were playing old-school metal when it was new.
Heavytothecore2: Speaking of these eight unreleased tracks, I
have to ask; are we going to have to wait six years to hear the new
material?
Tom: Well, you know, it’s all written. It exists; it’s just a
matter of tracking it. Everything that we have ever done has been
paid for out of our pockets. We invested heavily in “Vast Oceans
Lachrymose,” not that we didn’t with “Empires” either, but we
basically spent double the amount of money that we did on
“Empires.” That’s because we wanted the best absolute sound
quality, period. No cutting corners, despite the fact that we knew
that everybody was going to steal it anyway. The fact is that the
music itself deserved to be done justice. Also, for our audience,
after waiting this long, I’m not going to turn an album out that
sounds like Darkthrone.
Even if there is nothing wrong with that…I appreciate things like
that myself, but not in this case. It would be wrong on so many
levels. My point is that I don’t even know how we’re going to pay
off this record, to be honest with you. “Vast Oceans Lachrymose”
was so expensive that most people would lose their minds just
thinking that we would spent this out of pocket. Let me put it to
you this way, I could have bought a nice sports car or a house in
the Mid-West with the amount of money I spent on this album. There
is a very significant debt to the studio at this point that…until
we pay it, there’s no way we can go and start on the other
album.
We need to roll with the same studio and same engineer, because
there is something to that connection right there and that
partnership between While Heaven Wept and Chris Salamone. That’s
part of what makes this album, the audio quality. It sounds good on
any system, whether it’s a boom box or a $50,000 stereo. To achieve
that was not cheap and it was very time-consuming, but it was
totally gratifying. It does sound different on everything, but you
can still hear all the instruments and parts.
Unless we come up with a hefty amount of cash through merchandise
sales and album sales, I don’t know how long it would be until we
record it. I would love to start recording it this year and we
certainly could in terms of preparedness, but financially, that’s a
whole other story. We’re looking into options, but some of it is
also way I’ve even conceited to the whole iTunes thing. We need to
bring it in wherever we can and this is where the illegal
downloading really hurts a band like us. We do get a huge advance
from a record company; this isn’t some corporation’s money. We work
paycheck to paycheck just like everybody else. There’s nobody rich
or even close to being wealthy in While Heaven Wept, but we have
very high production values and we don’t cut corners for ourselves.
We’re not going to betray ourselves or what we hear or what this
music deserves in terms of amount of heart and soul that went into
it.
Heavytothecore2: Is there any name or album title to the
unreleased tracks?
Tom: “Fear Of Infinity” is the next album. That’s basically the
eight songs that would have been on “VOL” if “The Furthest Shore”
hadn’t grown and another epic that’s probably about 12 or 13
minutes. Not quite as long as “Furthest Shore,” but what it
delivers and what it does is the greatest musical moment of the 20
years of While Heaven Wept. That’s what we’re looking to the
most…it’s a much darker album than VOL. Half of the album is
extremely aggressive, in the way that can best be described as
Viking-era Bathory or latter-day Immortal. They won’t be any of
this mistaking of it for power metal. Half of those songs date back
to the “Sorrow Of The Angels” era, so they are very moody, intense,
brooding, deep, and dark. I don’t want to say it is doom; there are
certainly doom aspects, but it’s very melancholic.
Heavytothecore2: The band’s first two albums are being
re-released. Is there any bonus material or features on them?
Tom: Here’s the situation with those releases. 2009-2010 marks
our 20th anniversary and there’s some debate going around about how
to commemorate that in addition to “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” coming
out and we have a festival coming up here in Germany in a few weeks
and we want to do something special for them. For years now, I’ve
been getting e-mails every single day from people who wanted
“Sorrow Of The Angels” because they missed it back in 1998. With
“Empires,” our old label, Rage Of Achilles, disappeared. It was one
of those labels that were victim to industry scenarios and right
there, that album died. It’s unfortunate because there was a lot of
potential with that one which would had made it possible for VOL to
come out sooner.
Anyway, because of the fact that I’ve been constantly getting
e-mails and requests for those albums and because I’ve seen totally
ridiculous prices on eBay and Amazon for these albums, I wanted to
give people one more chance to get them as is in terms of contents
of the album. These literally are the original albums we pressed,
but with some updated packaging, some new linear notes, some photos
for the appropriate eras that weren’t there previously. That’s it,
apart from being hand numbed. They are limited to 1,000 copies each
on CD and there are literally 250 copies of each one in the United
States in my possession only. There’s no wholesale, no stories
involved. It’s strictly direct from us. 500 copies went to our
distributor in Germany and Cruz Del Sur kept the balance…the bottom
line is that this is it. This is the last opportunity to get these
albums as is because the next time they resurface, it’s going to be
a very different situation.
It’s been no secret that I’ve never been entirely happy with
“Sorrow Of The Angels” and even “Empires,” in my opinion, could be
improved upon. So my ultimate intention is to go back and properly
remix, remaster, and even re-record some things as needed. There
are some other aspects to these future versions that will be 2 CD
sets, but they will not contain the original mix or mastering. They
will sound different from what you hear now, but they will in fact
be definitive, as far as I am concerned. The only thing is that
obviously, these are not as high of a priority as “Fear Of
Infinity.” By the time those things surface, that could be five,
ten years from now.
For the die-hards that have been around with us for a long time,
that’s where the Iron Codex LP version comes into play. These are
very close to my heart because “Sorrow Of The Angels” originally
was part of the chapter one double vinyl anthology in 2002, but
there was a flaw in the pressing plant. They put these cuts between
the songs that aren’t supposed to be there. Side two and side three
should have been continuous music, but they put these blackouts
in-between the tracks that totally destroyed that release for me.
This is a chance for me to correct that with “Sorrow Of The
Angels.”
“Empires” was never on vinyl and we really done this one up. It’s
got all the bonus tracks from all the various versions of
“Empires.” It’s a double LP, 45 rpm, 180-gm vinyl, audio file top
of the line, with a 12 page LP size booklet that comes with it an
also the same treatment for VOL. We did a vinyl pressing of that in
the states through Maniacal Records, but it sold out before it even
left the pressing plant, which was a single LP. This Iron Codex
version is a double LP like “Empires” and 180 gm vinyl, 350 gram
Gatefold sleeve, also with a 12-inch booklet. That’s the best that
VOL and “Empires” will sound….and we’re not quite done yet. There’s
going to be some more things from WHW before the end of the year
because there’s a lot of material that dates back before “Sorrow Of
The Angels,” 1989-1996, that was never released.
Heavytothecore2: When do the re-releases come out?
Tom: The CD’s came out on the 29th of January…and the vinyl’s
from Iron Codex are scheduled to be released on February 6th, which
is also the same day as the Hammer of Doom festival in Würzburg,
Germany, where we are co-headlining with St. Vitus and Asphyx.
Heavytothecore2: What kind of touring will be in support of
“Vast Oceans Lachrymose?”
Tom: At this time, we’re only confirmed for Hammer Of Doom III
because we signed an exclusive agreement for that event. We did a
couple of shows with Argus from Pennsylvania weeks back, which was
a good blend of music between Argus and WHW. I have some connection
with Butch, the singer, because of Penance and because WHW played
with Penance a lot in the past. We get along so well and musically,
it just makes so much sense, that we’re going to go ahead and do
some more dates in the future here in the states. I’m thinking its
most likely going to be spread out over a weekend here and
there…most of the band is married with kids and careers and all
sorts of stuff like that. It isn’t always so easy for us to do some
situation where we pile into a band and drive away. Plus with
Michelle (Loose-Schrotz, keyboardist), that’s not too cool
(laughs).
We’re looking at some East Coast action after we get past Hammer Of
Doom. There some talks to doing some Iron Man/WHW/Argus shows from
New York down to Raleigh. Our audience predominately is in Europe,
Germany and Greece especially. They embraced us 17 years ago when
our demo first came out and it hasn’t changed. Obviously, that is
our focus point in the long run…if there is a tour scenario, it’s
going to be predominately Germany and Western Europe in general
because that’s where our strongest bastion of support.
We got some offers on the table. We got some other things that are
big that I’m not at liberty to speak of at the moment, but
basically, we’re going to have to make some decisions pretty soon.
There are some legitimate offers from high above that we need to
consider. That’ll make sense in due time or its totally irrelevant
now. Again, I don’t do this for fame, fortune, money, power,
notoriety, or any of that. We don’t need to, that’s the thing. We
all have jobs and careers and responsibilities and commitment; that
would be enough to fulfill a life, but the music is a need and a
necessity. Just doing it and completing an album successfully is
enough, but it’s worth considering some things.
Heavytothecore2: If you could tour with one band, past or
present, who would it be and why?
Tom: (Pauses) That’s a tough one, man. In terms of musical
compatibility, or just because it would be fucking cool, it would
probably be King Crimson circa 1973, 1974. They are just at that
threshold going into the “Red Album” where John Wetton and Bill
Bruford are this powerhouse rhythm machine and the height of what
people call “Crim-metal.” If not that man, I would have to say Pink
Floyd around 1971, probably towards Oct/Nov 1971, when they are
just coming out of “Atom Heart Mother” and going into “Meddle.”
Long space-out jams, but pre “Dark Side,” so it’s a darker era. I
think either of those bands, because at those specific time frames,
those bands had darkness to me…but they were still beautiful from
orchestral aspects and melancholy too. It would really make sense
against a lot of WHW material, but it would be different enough…I
think those would be killer shows.