Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On

last SG · 2009-01-02T21:30:00+00:00

Surely it is not the case that the more impressive the kill ratio, the more guilty a side should be?The sites targeted were those that were storing or operat...

Stevenson101 SG

Well, I'm not saying that I support what is going on in Gaza thats for sure. But given the kind of history we're talking about, the explosive mix of Palestinian Nationalism and regligious extremism, I think there is little we can do but watch the dominoes fall. At least for now...

I optimistically believe that not all the Arabs have axes to grind with Israel. And the Arab peace initiative you mentioned is a good point supporting that. However, the Arabs themselves are split between the moderates and the extremes. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc, all have an interest in regional stability for the sake of profits. Its the other bunch such as Iran and Syria thats destabilizing the region with their invisible hands, encouraging groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas in taunting Israel, drawing their military out for a fight. Bush Jr may have been an unpopular President, but he was right on the money naming Iran and Syria to be part of that axis of evil. These are the bunch that need to be dealt with in order to cut off Hezbollah and Hamas, the parties that are number 1 at antagonizing Israel.

When the world first discovered strategic air power, people who believed in it, also believed that the way to win a war, was to bomb the enemy's infrastructure, women and children such that the enemy loses political will to fight. We moved on from that thankfully. However, Hamas and Hezbollah didn't. On the other hand, from the footages I saw, Israel's retaliatory strike in Cast Lead had specifically targeted rocket launch sites and ammunition storage.

Look, these guys responsible for all those civilian casualties are hiding high explosives in Mosques and buildings with civilian infrastructure in the vincinity. While the IAF had relied on targeting pods and laser guided bombs to hit back, Hamas has been shooting rockets into civilian populated areas. It seems that nobody except Hamas and Hezbollah are targeting civilian populations.

You take a trip to Israel and you will realize how ridiculous it is for a modern nation, prosperous as it is, to be at perpetual state of war and anxiety, not knowing when the next rocket attack will come. Rocket attacks not sent from another hostile state, but by this blood thirsty organization hiding in the Gaza. I can totally understand why the Israelis choose to hit back.

As Sith teaching goes, "Peace is a lie, there is only passion." The Peace Loving majority would have no means to enforce peace other than through the force of arms. How do you subdue belligerents other than through violence? You may lable me Realist now. =D

There are "peace loving" majorities on both side of the fence here. The Palestinian people who are tired of seeing their loved ones being blown up by the crossfire between the IDF and Hamas, and the "peace loving" majorities in Israel who are tired of suicide bombers and incessant rocket attacks places of congregation. So which "peace loving" majority is gonna have their way? From what it looks like, neither are. Since Peace on both sides is impossible without the elimination of Hamas and Hezbollah, then there is only strife until one side prevails. Then, there will be peace... until the next asshole comes along.

From the way I look at it. You have a few kinda people in the Gaza right now, or within Hamas. One, the ones who believe Israeli is an abomination that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth. Two, those who believe that Palestine should be a sovereign state. Both fight Israel. The latter bunch would adhere to a ceasefire or truce... but the first will always provoke. If you can clear out type One, who knows what kind of settle might be possible, and perhaps... peace? Until then, the situation will be as in the preceding paragraph.

Problem is with the attempts to destroy Type One, it is inevitable that you are going to have to destroy property and lives. Technology isn't that advanced, and the way the Palestinians are packed together you cannot avoid collateral damage.

With each attempt, it is going to be more and more difficult for the Palestinian Peaceniks to convince their people that a ceasefire and truce is in their best interest.

Arguing whether the Israelis are justified in their retaliation is a moot point, it's just going to be a fact that Hamas will only grow stronger the way they're doing it, because through these actions you allow their more radical elements to take power.

They take power and resume their rocket/terrorists attacks, prompting the more radical elements of the Israel government to respond with more retaliatory strikes.

We comment on Israel/Hamas/Hezbollah like it's a single group mind but as long as there is a group of humans they are going to be differing views on how best to accomplish something.

Israel's counterattack will only escalate the conflict, not resolve it.

Shotgun SG

Israel's counter attack won't escalate the conflict because it already has been escalated. What is the worst the Hamas can do with the IDF locking down Gaza and pounding them from the air, land and sea? Launch more rockets? Israel has already been constantly bombarded by those, so no change there, no escalation there.

The reverse can be said to be true. As the IAF targets more and more missile sites in the Hamas in the Gaza, Hamas is gonna start running out of launchers soon. Palestinian " "Peaceniks" ( i like that term ;-) ) should have been violently prosecuting Hamas members and not letting them use the Gaza strip as launchpad (literally).

And here's a little point of consideration for you. If the Palestinians were truly a peace loving bunch that abhor violence, it wouldn't really take that much effort to convince them that a ceasefire and truce (and maintenance of it) is in their best interest don't you think? There is a fundamental problem with Palestinian society that takes to extremism and violence too easily. Its equally sad and disturbing to see 5 year old Palestinian kids reciting poetry of "Martyrdom."

The conflict, or rather incessant terrorist attacks and rocket/mortar attacks has already reached an escalated level. They are not capable of mounting an outright invasion or launching any larger scale attacks than the ones they have already done. At least not without the IDF sitting on their doorsteps and pounding away. The reverse is true, the IDF can still choose to increase the level of violence and pressure on Hamas.

Israel's retaliation however, may push Israeli-Palestinian "relations" (i'm not sure why im using this term, they aren't even a state...) to a point of no-return. However, "relations" is a pretty small "r" to worry about when you have "Rockets" coming your way.

Thats just the way things are, IMO.

Stevenson101 SG

Thats just the way things are, IMO.

Meh, frankly i don't see a real solution to the problem other than the complete extermination of the Palestinians.

Their children are still going to grow up hating Israel, that's not going to change.

soul_rage SG

I am no political scientist.

I just wonder that for those who are against what Israel is doing now, what is your suggested solution and why do you think it will work?

Hamas does not recognize Israel's sovereignty, and they are sworn to destroy Israel. In this case, concessions are out. Giving way to their demands are out. So what else is there for Israel to do that you think is effective?

I see a lot of condemnations, but no solution provided forward. As Israel, i think it has the right to stop rockets firing into its land.

Someone said that Israel had planned the land invasion long before the truce ended and claimed that this shows Israel's evil intentions. My take is that its leaders have the foresight to preempt the possible resumption of Hama's attacks and putting in place a plan before the truce ended.

googoomuck SG

googoomuck,

History is perceptible from different angles.

Although I have scrolled through my posts time and time again, never did I state that Israel invaded and occupied territories. Its just a figment of your imagination that I did.

Since you mentioned it, Israel did invade and OCCUPY territories. Even the Israelies would affirm to that fact. Read U.N resolution 242.

On what basis does your pathetic intellectual capacity attest to the claim that the Arabs were the aggresors? You desire to adhere to a claim which is one of a perceptible and contentious nature. I simply asserted that the Arabs retailiated in broad view of the historical fact that Israel DID conduct the first pre emptive strike before an official declaration of war. Since Egypt, Jordan and Syria are legitimately state actors of the international realm, the corresponding attack on Israel following its preemptive
strike would be called a retaliation.

I begin to detect nuances of racism in your third paragraph which is most certainly unconstructive for any intellectual debate or discussion. But then again I shall not insult myself.

Both of your claims are ambigious and inaccurate. And for your info, this is not a myth but could possibly tantamount to a myth if not kept in check.

firstly only 3 nations initially amassed their troops of 3 front. (congrats, you got the number of fronts right). then Iraq joined in the fray soon after. Even so, this fact falls short of 3-4 nations as you claim)

The act of egypts temporary bloackade of the Straits of Tiran alone does NOT tantamount to an act of war ALONE. As i mentioned the Suez Crisis played a pivotal role in the 1967 war and there exists numerous causations which was attributed to the war itself.

Before you make a feeble attempt at arguing with a political scientist, do your research properly and learn to segregate rationalism from emotional tirade because it reflects poorly on your intellectual standing.

I'm just very interested to understand why there are some people like you who like to twist the facts.

Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces, making a total of seven.

Google is not the only source for information. There are many books in the libraries and reputable book stores as well.

Your attempts to 'change' history has failed miserably.

freedomclub SG

Not condemn Hamas?

You must be addled in your brains! They are the antagonist in the entire middle east plans for peace with their call for genocide upon a nation!.

I hold more respect for a dog, a cat, a pig, a horse or a cow than to Hamas. They are worst than animals, they are beasts. They and their kind murder innocent people, both palestinians and jews as well as others in their mis-guided agenda to achieve political and religious domination, but only tools and fools used by bigger fishes seeking for world domination by the persian Iran and Al Queda.

Make no mistake, even as i am a humanitarian, believe me, i would NOT hesistate to pull the trigger to blow their brains out the way i would blow a mauling tiger in order to save precious human lives.

What the hell is 'disportionate' ? A stone that kills is equivalent to a nuclear bomb that wipes out, because human lives are lost. Does it matter to a human or their loved ones if it was a stone or a nuke that kill the victim?

How many precious lives lost then can it be called 'proportionate'?

The human life is precious. I would had been apathetic and closed my eyes and ears to everything else. But our late Ms Lo Hwee Yen made me realise how precious life is.

It was not because she was pretty. It was not because she was a grad. It was not because she was successful. It was because she was human. With a life ahead to live. And yet mercilessly cut down. By an evil ideology manipulated from a peaceful religion.

Just as innocent Jews and Palestinian lives were cut down. Men, women and espacially children. By an ideology that gains sympathies, funds and recruits to grow.

No. I have no sympathy for Hamas and their kind or for those who sympathize with them. My sympathies are for the innocent jews and palestinians who had to bear with them, and died because of them.

May they finally find peace. And their loved ones bear the sorrow the way loved ones of our Ms Lo bore.

Moderate Muslims must stand up to end this tragedy of our times, of a religion hijacked by beasts, denounce them, and issue hunting licence for every single one of them. They are not fighting on behalf of religion, they are only destroying it.

The Muslim holy book cannot shoulder this responsibility of being spat upon by billions of this world whom are not muslims as more innocents die. There are too many beautiful verses in the Koran that comforts the soul, just like the Bible, the Buddhist Sutras and the Hindu Vedas.

I , a non-muslim, would wear a sackcloth, for the sacriledge the terrorists had done to the holy book, written by a good man who lived during the 6th century, who united and uplifted a diverse nomadic society into greatness and knowing the Almighty, giving peace to a people whom faced brutal tribal leadership in a harsh land.

Peace be unto all.

PS:- My sense of right and wrong is always clear where human lives are concerned. I hold doctors with the highest regard. I could never swear to the Hippocratic oath, knowing that i must save a life even whom he/she will only continue to murder many other lives once he lives.

Just as Muslims and non-muslims are oblivious to the despicable Hamas and others like them on the harm they do to innocent lives and yet continue to support them. At least doctors attempt to save lives, these supporters only help encourage murdering of more lives.

Not condemn Hamas?

You must be addled in your brains! They are the antagonist in the entire middle east plans for peace with their call for genocide upon a nation!.

I hold more respect for a dog, a cat, a pig, a horse or a cow than to Hamas. They are worst than animals, they are beasts. They and their kind murder innocent people, both palestinians and jews as well as others in their mis-guided agenda to achieve political and religious domination, but only tools and fools used by bigger fishes seeking for world domination by the persian Iran and Al Queda.

So does the state of Israel murders innocent people when they use F-16s on a prison population of 1.5 million. I thought you didnt want to play the "blame game"? If you really cared about human life, then cursing Hamas for 80 Israeli deaths while overlooking the 800+ Palestinian deaths, including women and children, doesn't really reflect well on you. Spare some curses for the State of Israel as well.

Got a picture?

freedomclub SG

Thats just the way things are, IMO.

Even peace-loving people will have to retaliate when their compatriots are dying everyday from air strikes, which they have no way of retaliating at all. Too much hatred has gone into the land for any peace to arise.

I agree with Stevenson, sad to say, the conflict will never be solved unless the Palestinians are wiped out (happy now googoomuck?) or are moved to some Arab country.

googoomuck SG

googoomuck,

It seems your arguments and statements are largely based on emotional blaberring and lambasting.

I sympathize with your severe lack of conscience at the loss of human lives.

Lets not argue on which side initiated this most recent conflict which is simply a spiral of past events which will accede a long debate.

Hamas rhetoric is overblown out of proportion so let the focus be on the effect of this conflict.

Recent reports have came in testifying to the Zionist purposeful intent on attacking innocent civilians, women and children. They just bombed a U.N school where many innocent lives were taking refuge and even non- Gazans were maliciously killed by the IDF the perpertrators of terrorism.

There exists no tangible association with Gazans giving Hamas the popular vote as the main raison d etre is the terrible and overwhelming corruption of Fatah and the lack of social services vis a vis Hamas. The Gazans did not voted Hamas simply and even majoritarily for its hatred of the Zionists.

Thus, the effect of this war is a big loss for humanity.

Palestinian sources said the casualties in the bombed school were mostly civilians.

You know what that means, don't you?

Terrorists have misused mosques, hospitals, orphanages, homes and schools. That's not news anymore.

BadzMaro SG

*yawn*

So u support Hamas ?

freedomclub SG

Palestinian sources said the casualties in the bombed school were mostly civilians.

You know what that means, don't you?

Terrorists have misused mosques, hospitals, orphanages, homes and schools. That's not news anymore.

Or it could mean that Israel actually bombed a school.

Just like how the US, using almost the same "precision" weapons, managed to bomb weddings, schools and hospitals in Afghanistan and Iraq.

googoomuck SG

I agree with Stevenson, sad to say, the conflict will never be solved unless the Palestinians are wiped out (happy now googoomuck?) or are moved to some Arab country.

Hey, I didn't say that !

googoomuck SG

Or it could mean that Israel actually bombed a school.

Just like how the US, using almost the same "precision" weapons, managed to bomb weddings, schools and hospitals in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Because the Talibans have misused those buildings. Any shells or gunfire directed at the US troops from those grounds were pin-pointed and destroyed.

I'm glad that you made this fact known to us.

freedomclub SG

Hey, I didn't say that !

But you have no issues with that right? Judging from your lack of scruples over Israel's bombings.

freedomclub SG

Because the Talibans have misused those buildings. Any shells or gunfire directed at the US troops from those grounds were pin-pointed and destroyed.

I'm glad that you made this fact known to us.

So let's use the example of how the US bombed a wedding procession in Afghanistan. Perhaps the night before, some Taliban had passed the same place. Even though the US has the world's most well-funded intelligence agency, the next morning, while some Afghans were making merry, US war planes (who couldnt distinguish a wedding procession from a Taliban mob) dropped some thousand pound bomb on the group. That sure is a good way to win the hearts and minds of the Afghanistan people.

googoomuck SG

But you have no issues with that right? Judging from your lack of scruples over Israel's bombings.

I have no issues with Hamas if they don't fire rockets at Israel.

freedomclub SG

I have no issues with Hamas if they don't fire rockets at Israel.

Here we go again....

And what about Israel's oppression of the Gazans?

BadzMaro SG

lol.. the blame game.. having no solution. Might as well say until the bibilical days when Israel was oppressed also. hahaha

shiet..

watching u guys is like watching a re-run over n over n over n over again.

freedomclub SG

Thats why I said "Here we go again...".

This is a tiring topic to discuss.

freedomclub SG

Here's a new look at the Israeli invasion of Gaza.

Guess What? Lots Of Oil,
Natural Gas In Gaza!
A Secret Behind Israel's Siege of Gaza: Palestinians
Have Oil and Natural Gas Resources

Martha Rose Crow, M.S.
1-7-09

http://www.rense.com/general84/guess.htm

freedomclub SG

By YAAKOV KATZ

Jan 6, 2009 9:09 | Updated Jan 7, 2009 12:15

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1231167270150&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

As Operation Cast Lead concluded its harshest 24 hours on Tuesday after the IDF lost five soldiers, senior defense officials revealed that the army was prepared to deploy in the entire Gaza Strip, if necessary.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak will decide in the coming days whether Israel should expand the ground operation against the Hamas terrorist infrastructure, they said.

Since the ground operation was launched on Saturday, IDF troops from several infantry and armored brigades have, according to Palestinian reports, taken up positions throughout northern Gaza - near Beit Lahiya, Beit Hanun, Jabalya, Saja'iya and al-Atatra.

Despite increasing international pressure on Israel to withdraw its troops, a senior official confirmed that plans had been drawn up to move troops into the south as well.

Four soldiers were killed in friendly-fire incidents that took place during fighting on Monday night.

Three soldiers were killed when a tank mistakenly opened fire on a home in Saja'iya occupied by officers and soldiers from the Golani Brigade. Another tank accidentally fired on a home in al-Atatra, killing an officer in the 202nd Battalion of the Paratroop Brigade.

The soldiers were Cpl. Yousef Moadi, 19, who lived recently in Haifa, but was originally from the Druse village of Yirka; Maj. Dagan Wertman, 32, from Ma'aleh Michmash in the Binyamin region; St.-Sgt. Nitai Stern, 21, from Jerusalem; and Capt. Yonatan Netanel, 27, from Kedumim.

On Tuesday morning, St.-Sgt. Alexander Mashevizky, 21, was killed and four other soldiers from a joint Golani-Engineering Corps force were lightly wounded in a gun battle with Hamas operatives in northern Gaza City.

Mashevizky, a member of an elite Engineering Corps unit, led the joint force, which was ambushed by Hamas gunmen while conducting ground sweeps. The Hamas operatives were reportedly hit by IDF fire.

Barak said Tuesday that Israel had paid a painful price for a bitter, unavoidable battle.

"It is a bitter battle, but an unavoidable one," he continued. "No peace-loving country can allow a terrorist organization to ruin daily life and embitter the lives of civilians."

A senior IDF officer said on Tuesday that Hamas had stepped up its attacks against troops based in the periphery of towns and villages in northern Gaza. Over 150 Palestinians have been arrested in Gaza.

There have also been a number of kidnapping attempts by Hamas operatives who pop out of tunnels and try to grab soldiers.

If the IDF decides to expand its operations, it may send some of the reservists who have been training in the South into the Gaza Strip.

"Hamas is trying to draw us inside the built-up areas," said a senior IDF officer, speaking by a secure phone line from the field. "Hamas is trying to avoid a classic battle with us. Last night, we had a suicide bomber who tried to break into a compound and blow up, and the force responded quickly. There is also sniper fire from hundreds of meters away, and when we get into buildings there is a lot of mortar fire."

In spite of the fierce fighting, diplomatic activity has begun to gain steam, and defense officials predicted that Operation Cast Lead could be over in the coming week if a diplomatic resolution is achieved.

The IDF is conditioning its acceptance of a new cease-fire with Hamas on the establishment of a supervision mechanism in the Gaza Strip and the creation of a force based along the Egyptian side of the Philadelphi Corridor to prevent the smuggling of weaponry and explosives from Egypt into Gaza.

Amid international criticism over civilian deaths and increasing calls for a cease-fire, IDF soldiers edged closer to two major Gaza towns on Tuesday.

A total of 58 Palestinians were killed Tuesday, including 30 who were reportedly killed in an IDF mortar attack on a Jabalya school from which Hamas was launching mortars into IDF positions. The IDF said that several Hamas gunmen were among those killed in the school.

Senior officers said the IDF would likely deepen its operations in Gaza in the coming days.

Since it took up positions in northern Gaza, the IDF said Hamas was having difficulty in launching long-range Katyusha rockets against Ashdod and Beersheba.

"Unless Hamas comes to its senses, we will find ourselves in other parts of the Gaza Strip," a senior officer said. "Hamas is determined, and this operation is not a walk in the park."

The IAF also struck the home of one of the founders of Hamas's rocket division on Tuesday. The IDF said that the terror chief, Iman Siam, was in his house at the time of the air strike in Jabalya.

The army said that in addition to being a founder of Hamas's rocket-launching program, Siam was the head of the group's artillery program throughout the Gaza Strip.

At least 10 Hamas and Islamic Jihad gunmen were killed in other Gaza battles early Tuesday, the IDF said, claiming that soldiers had killed close to 150 Hamas gunmen since the ground operation was launched on Saturday.

Paratroopers operating near the town of al-Atatra discovered a booby-trapped doll at the entrance to a smuggling tunnel. The doll-bomb was safely dismantled.

A Givati force entered a school on Monday night, and in the morning discovered that it was rigged with explosives that were connected to a piano in a nearby home.

In an overnight clash, paratroopers operating near al-Atatra spotted a suicide bomber and opened fire on him. The shooting triggered his explosive belt, which killed him when it detonated. One soldier was lightly wounded in the incident.

Elsewhere, a booby-trapped house was bombed. The IDF believed that under the house were a number of smuggling tunnels.

The IDF announced that it had conducted over 30 sorties during overnight operations late Monday and early Tuesday.

During the raids, IAF planes bombed the Jabalya home of Basal Abu Wadi, a prominent Hamas military officer who was at the level of a company commander in Izzadin Kassam.

The Jabalya home of another Hamas officer, Ashraf Guda, was destroyed in a different air strike. His house was said to function as a Hamas command and control center.

The house of a third company commander in the military wing, Iman Jalala, was also targeted overnight.

Around 40 rockets were fired at southern Israel on Tuesday, causing damage to structures. Six people people suffered from shock, but there were no other casualties.

Magen David Adom paramedics attended 37 rocket impact scenes throughout the day.

Yaakov Lappin contributed to this report.

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