1st world country, 3rd world situation, Uniquely Singapore

redDUST SG

I think the one we see now r probably the old one tat had stayed for a period of time, not someone who had come in 2-3 months ago.

About your FT colleague, sad to say tis is a cruel world. The same thing could have happened to singaporean relocating overseas as well. At least he had made money when he bought a place 1.5 years ago. If I am not wrong the price for a place now is more expensive than 1.5 years ago...

yes, he will make money if he is forced to sell...

eagle SG

I think the one we see now r probably the old one tat had stayed for a period of time, not someone who had come in 2-3 months ago.

I can tell you that the company (MNC) I worked at employed quite a handful from Malaysia and 2 from the philippines.

I'm not including those PRCs and Malaysians that they have employed and just graduated from NUS/NTU.

In proportion, much less Singaporeans were employed, probably only to maintain the Singaporeans to foreigners ratio.

eagle SG

Economy sometimes behave like a yo yo, there is up and down. Now u see, previously we need foreigner in order for our econmy to grow. Now then we face a recession, u want them to psk their bags and go immediately ? The only thing tat can be done is by reducing the number of people coming in, not by chasing them all away.

Furthermore, 2.3% is still pretty low compared with similar economies

I mentioned nothing about chasing those already here away. They have contributed a lot I believe, they have the right to stay.

I'm implying the one you mentioned in red. Guess we reached an agreement here.

stupidissmart SG

I do not know the exact figures but my guess is tat the gov is reducing the number of foreigners coming over when there is a high unemployment rate. Just think about it ba.. wat benefits does the gov earn when more foreigners come in and replace the local's job and they r running out of job ? I only hear tat it is much harder now for a foreigner to get a scholarship to come to singapore for study recently due to the poor economy prospect.

eagle SG

Well, what I see and what my friends experienced is different. As a new hire, I see many other new hires at the induction program of the company, and most, I can say, are not Singaporeans (fresh from overseas, with some foreign scholars fresh from NUS/NTU). It's those fresh from overseas that I'm talking about. At the very least, I believe there is no change in the local to foreign ratio at the moment.

When the economy is good, there's perfect reason for them to come. I supported it in this forum quite a few months back. But now, when the economy isn't looking that great???

What benefits does the gov get? They still get income tax from the foreigners. The companies earn more (than if they employ Singaporeans), and pay higher income tax. Money wise, the government will lose nothing be it locals working or foreigners working. It's the people's support that they are already starting to lose if they continue to do the same things (which they are).

stupidissmart SG

When the economy is good, there's perfect reason for them to come. I supported it in this forum quite a few months back. But now, when the economy isn't looking that great???

Tat is why I say the number coming in is probably reduced

Income tax ? Singaporean earning more also give the gov more tax. Singaporean is likely to spend the money more in singapore like HDB and cars which resulted in more tax to the country too. Foreigners like to remit the money back to their homeland. U also stated the gov will lose the support of the people if singaporean cannot find job. Maybe tis is strange to u but the gov is pretty sensitive to their popularity among the singaporean. To them they really have everything to lose and nothing to gain if they recruit foreigners blindly

eagle SG

Tat is why I say the number coming in is probably reduced

Which means you aren't sure too. But I can guarantee that it is not what I observed at the MNC I'm in.

income tax ? Singaporean earning more also give the gov more tax. Singaporean is likely to spend the money more in singapore like HDB and cars which resulted in more tax to the country too. Foreigners like to remit the money back to their homeland. U also stated the gov will lose the support of the people if singaporean cannot find job. Maybe tis is strange to u but the gov is pretty sensitive to their popularity among the singaporean. To them they really have everything to lose and nothing to gain if they recruit foreigners blindly

Really? We see the popular vote for the incumbent being eroded every year. It only raised a bit when GCT announced it would be his last election before he stepped down as PM, other than that, it has been constantly on the decline.

I can also tell you frankly now that they have lost my support since the last election too. What's worse than taxes increasing here and there without having an almost comparable raise in salary, and the extremely precise time of increasing the GST just before the quite expected economic downturn?

maurizio13 SG

Which means you aren't sure too. But I can guarantee that it is not what I observed at the MNC I'm in.

I can also tell you frankly now that they have lost my support since the last election too. What's worse than taxes increasing here and there without having an almost comparable raise in salary, and at the extreme precise time of increasing the GST just before the quite expected economic downturn?

Actually they lost alot of ground the past election, if they hadn't given out money to entice voters, kept secret the announcement about GST increases, they would have lost alot more seats.

stupidissmart SG

Which means you aren't sure too. But I can guarantee that it is not what I observed at the MNC I'm in.

There is no statistic studies which I can refer to therefore I cannot claim anything. I can only say i got wind of information tat they r recruiting less foreign scholars tis year due to the poor economic prospect and tat is why I extrapolate to the job market. As said, it is reduced the number of foreigners, not stop altogether so if u see some foreigners coming in, it cannot determined anything

I can also tell you frankly now that they have lost my support since the last election too. What's worse than taxes increasing here and there without having an almost comparable raise in salary, and at the extreme precise time of increasing the GST just before the quite expected economic downturn?

Ss said before, life is gonna get harder due to the competition with the region. The increase in prices is due to oil and food etc so it is nothing much anyone can do. I just feel tat the gov is not bad for example teaching people how to save money by using lesser electricity and eating frozen meat or finding other food sources.

Anyway the bottomline is still the gov has nothing to gain from finding excessive foreigners

If u think they do not deserve your vote... well it is your choice

eagle SG

Anyway the bottomline is still the gov has nothing to gain from finding excessive foreigners

If u think they do not deserve your vote... well it is your choice

If they are really recruiting less foreign scholars this year due to poor economic prospect, all the worse it shows for the planners in the government. These scholars will only come out to the job market a few years later, and not at the current moment.

And I'm not talking about scholars that studied under the Singapore education system. I'm talking about fresh grads from UM or other countries being employed over Singaporeans.

And ya... I have no idea why you think you 'getting wind of information' could be a more reliable info than what was being observed.

Anyway the bottomline is still the gov has nothing to gain from finding excessive foreigners

If u think they do not deserve your vote... well it is your choice

You have totally missed the point. It is not about life getting harder due to competition, or increases in prices, etc. It is about the precise timing of raising taxes just before the economic downturn. I'm saying that this economic downturn was sort of expected. That's the main reason which prompted me to search for a job years before I graduate.

Well, if the government has nothing to gain from finding excessive foreigners, then maybe you could attempt to explain my observations that I have told you about.

stupidissmart SG

And ya... I have no idea why you think you 'getting wind of information' could be a more reliable info than what was being observed.

The fact is, no one has any statistic data to prove either way. As said u observe some foreigners being recruited doesn't have much sway since it is... well... not statistically significant. About the gov reduction of scholarship to foreigners, it is a sign of trying to save money. In a way the gov can create job by hiring more people as civil servants. Second, although they can only come out a few years later, it is hard to see wat is it like in the future. Maybe they need more people, maybe they need less. Who knows ?

It is about the precise timing of raising taxes just before the economic downturn. I'm saying that this economic downturn was sort of expected.

Is not really expected. No one expect it to be tat bad. The biggest factor is the housing sub prime which has been going for many years, the unexpected increase in oil price and also commodities. I didn't expect it. If I do I would have spent all my saving on buying crude oil a year earlier.

Well, if the government has nothing to gain from finding excessive foreigners, then maybe you could attempt to explain my observations that I have told you about.

I see it in another way. If the gov had nothing to gain, and they r not stupid, then wat u observe is not really the sign tat represent the whole society.

soulwinner SG

Singapore look up to foreigner as talent or in return the citizen citizen either work abroad or migrate to gain the same status.. For example, my friend was offered $1,600 for to start as nurse in sg, however UAE offered him US$4,000 , excluding allowance (take note that the package include accomdation as well as transport). A simple will show the huge difference , The annual income for working in sg will be estimated about $35,000 whilst, working in UAE is US$60,000 per annual... so which one will you choose?

eagle SG

I see it in another way. If the gov had nothing to gain, and they r not stupid, then wat u observe is not really the sign tat represent the whole society.

I believe to explain it is a sign of trying to save money is incorrect. If it is true, the most probable reasons I can come up with is

1) they are really sensitive to the population's demand for less foreigners
2) they want to slow down the population growth
3) they are really bad planners,

Everyone knows that economies go in cycles, a major one almost every 10 years (some say 5). Look back the years. I believed there were also major recessions around 1968, 1978, 1988, 1998. From the period of 1997/1998 economic crisis, be it 5 or 10 years cycle, both point to the year 2008. In that sense, it can be rather expected.

That was the main reason I searched so hard for a job way before I graduated, because I know I will be graduating in 2008. I believed I have already stated this reason quite long ago in this forum.

I see it in another way. If the gov had nothing to gain, and they r not stupid, then wat u observe is not really the sign tat represent the whole society.

I have already told you that it is not only what I observed; my friends observed the same thing. This is however excluding GLCs and govt agencies.

Before this, you told me you believed the unemployment situation is controlled, and used outdated articles to prove your point. Then the newspaper showed otherwise. Now you are telling me that it is not representative of the whole society. I have no idea why you would like to persist in what you believe than accept or attempt to explain away what was observed. It's not like you have concrete and updated statistics to state your points.

Now, you do not even bother to explain the observations to convince, but rather, brush away it as not representative. This is similar behaviour to you brushing away what I said about some foreigner being rude. Ironically, it is you who later questioned me why I defended M13 for being rude when you have done that yourself in the first place.

stupidissmart SG

I believe to explain it is a sign of trying to save money is incorrect. If it is true, the most probable reasons I can come up with is

1) they are really sensitive to the population's demand for less foreigners
2) they want to slow down the population growth
3) they are really bad planners,

Frankly speaking, I think to save money is probably the real reason. How they r gonna spend the saved money is the real question

Wat u proposed is not really based on hard evidence but based on guess work. 1997 is the asian fiancial crisis but 2007 is a very good year for asia where straits index breaks record high. Just face it, no one realy know wat is gonna happened to the stock and share a year later. Even if u ask experts, they can come out with completely different prediction. Can u predict wat is the stock market like at 2009 ? Wat will the market be like in US at end 2009 ? Wat will the price of fuel be like at end 2009 ?

That was the main reason I searched so hard for a job way before I graduated, because I know I will be graduating in 2008. I believed I have already stated this reason quite long ago in this forum.

U started to find job only in 2008 right...

Before tis, I also told u tat the employment history of singapore has to be taken into account because foreign talent is not a 2008 phenomenon. Showing statistic on last year is a good evidence of the need for FT to grow the economy. Now the market is slowing, but realistically speaking it is still acceptable at 2.3%. If u look at other countries in the region, it is about 50% higher than singapore

This is similar behaviour to you brushing away what I said about some foreigner being rude. Ironically, it is you who later questioned me why I defended M13 for being rude when you have done that yourself in the first place.

The foreigner is rude because u think she give u a "look". Lets put it tis way. "Look" is very mild. When people complain of rudeness, it is about the things they said, or the gesture they perform then it is really taken seriously. Even if u r in the service line, a customer complaining of u giving them the "look" is taken mildly. When people give u a look, u just look them back and tat is it.

When M13 specifically called me stupid, thought processes having problem, report writing is complete rubbish and many others, u find it not rude. Don't u find yourself having double standards ? If a salesgirl, your girlfriend, your supervisor or even your supervisor say tat to u, it is rude. And then u go around trying to defend people calling people stupid and writing as rubbish etc . Now tat is really going past the limit

If a teacher says tat the above to u, he can be sacked. If a policeman say tat to u, your complaint can make him suspend his duty and work on behind the scene for some time. If u complaint a policeman or a teacher giving u the "look", they just tell u to be more tolerable and perhaps tell the teacher/policeman to be more careful next time.

Lastly, I am never rude to your M13 friend prior to tis

eagle SG

Frankly speaking, I think to save money is probably the real reason. How they r gonna spend the saved money is the real question

U started to find job only in 2008 right...

Lastly, I am never rude to your M13 friend prior to tis

Do you really need me to scan out my economics notes for you to show you that economy goes in cycles, a sinusoidal curve that goes on an upward path? This is not guesswork; it is stated in economic textbooks, etc.

Again, it is not about the price of fuel or the stock market or etc. It is about an economic downturn that can be predicted. If you ask me, there was at least one person who predicted an economic downturn in 2008/2009 in the year 2007, and it was published in the straits times.

I believe I mentioned about a year ago that I expected an economic downturn in 2008 somewhere in this forum.

U started to find job only in 2008 right...

No, I got it in 2005. And at the start of the first semester in year 4, semester 1 (that's June 2007), I went around telling my friends and my sis to find a job asap as there might likely be an economic downturn when we graduate. I gave them the same reason as I gave you. Quite a number do not believe me at that time.

I told them, we will either be just at the end of the good job market, or just missed it and be at the start of the recession.

This is not prediction; this is from the understanding of how economy cycles function.

Fortunately our government is not as short-sighted as you. Are you seriously thinking that it will stop at 2.3%???? Somehow you like to constantly look at past events and pacify yourself that everything is well.

And I'm not one that compares much with other countries. If we have problems within our society, we look at in within, not compare with other countries and console ourselves that it is acceptable. Please don't be a 2nd lionnoisy

And finally, on FT wise, deathmaster made a valid point in the first post of this thread page:

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/325895?page=3

Lastly, I am never rude to your M13 friend prior to tis

1) I was never rude to the service person before this, and you are not there to witness what happened.

2) I'm here to witness what M13 said, and I believe we have discussed, and you have agreed, that calling you stupid is not rude because it is your nickname.

3) If your Christian name is stupid, there's nothing wrong for the teacher or policeman to call you "stupid".

4) Are you blaming others for telling you off for your poor English letter writing standards? Let me tell you there's no double standards here.

5) You have defended someone for so many posts a rude action which you have not even witness at all; there's a limit to word descriptions of rude actions. You merely brushed it away, yet when I defended M13 for his logical choice of words, you are telling me off? Aren't you being a hypocrite? Seems like you are the one who is practicing double standards here.

6) I have already mentioned. If you would like me to repost

Well, if I used a lousy standard of English in a report or an email that he has seen and received and sent to someone outside the company (without even informing him beforehand, but informing only after the act has been done, thus resulting in an inaccurate transfer of information), and that I make mistakes like calling tax avoidance as tax evasion, he's has all the right to do so.

Now, don't you think the sentence in bold perfectly reflects a rude action?

7) Finally, this is more so different because it is a virtual place. I shall repost again:

But if you want to say anything bad about me, do feel free. I'm serious. This is a forum, a virtual world afterall, and I don't bother with such trivial stuff. I'm here to discuss some politics, have entertainment, make cynic pokes at the government, and most importantly, to help and share with people if they have any queries in homework or in the areas of health and fitness, if I know the answer to. I believe you have seen me ignore any insults or anything, from the likes of Gazelle and clones.

And again, this is not even targetting supporters or anything. If you cannot even be consistent in what you have said and what you have done, how can you blame anyone else?

If you really can get so agitated and upset in this virtual world, I guess you should really mature more.

Now, any reasons why you are comparing real life events vs events and words used in this virtual place?

O o O o SG

fifi rulz

charlize SG

Eh, eagle got a secret admirer.

Short Ninja SG

Don't forget based on the last ERECTION result 66.6 % of SIngapore is happy with the garment.So I would really be shocked if the PAP keeps coming back stronger.Your vote is your voice so instead of complaning tell everybody you know to do the right thing and make SIngapore a better place for SIngaporeans so they dont have to migrate.

charlize SG

66.6% of those who could vote.

Not 66.6% of Singaporeans.

Big difference you know.

Cameron SG

you know i woudn't say 66.6% (i'm not sure about the figure) was happy with the reigning party, but i'm quite certain out of their votes, a certain percentage belonged to an unconcerned group. a group who doesn't care about politics and voted for the incumbent because it had been 'the way' all along. and may i highlight, that there are even more reasons (than simply out of support) that voters went with the current gahmen, some beliefs like 'don't want trouble coz they will know' , housing values etc. so even though they may not support the incumbent, they will still vote for them due to other reasons. It is not easy for the opp to secure a win.. at least not without knowing there's still a huge percentage of the unconcerns out there. and i think they had done an excellent job on giving us 'a choice' last GE, because 'the concerns' were finally able to show their displeasures from the results of falling support rates across the island.

talking about us getting poorer? yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BygOYrP722Y

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