Feeding our babies to the economy monster

last SG · 2008-08-14T17:01:50+00:00

We need more people to contribute to the CPF. More! More! More!

Evangel SG

Hi Evangel,

Admit it is a problem then try TO SOLVE the problem

U are damn right.Just because we and our children have been ,are and will

be treated as human being,gavaman dares to raise this big problem

and try to find soluation.

Tell me which country have openly admit this is a problem and try

to solve this problem?

SG PAP has never shy to tell u the problems and try to find

solutions.Do u know we are studying how to cope with raising

sea level?

This is also a economic problem

Do u think couples will listen to all sort of 'Family value',

' why u shall reproduce' ,'the country need your kids' lessons?

Without more new born kids,the existing kids will have to support more

old folks when the kids become middle age.

There are other problems----lack of soldiers,lack of tax payers etc.

Meaning in life

If u find no meaning,then who's fault?PAP again ,of course!!

Then why dunt u change it by joining reliable opposition

or forming a new Party?

Or simply migrate to your dream country,if u find one.

How long do u have to work a day in other country?

Q: Tell me which country has openly admit this is a problem and try to solve this problem?

A: The swedish. If not why is Singapore trying to learn from their swedish policies?

Q: Do u think couples will listen to all sort of 'Family value', ' why u shall reproduce' ,'the country need your kids' lessons?

A: No, in fact the government has failed to persuade couples to have children this way. I guess the economic way failed also. The swedish have actually a lot more paid maternity leave for both husbands and wives as compared to Singapore. Monetary wise, I have not tabulated it. Maybe some kind forumers would help me?

Without more new born kids,the existing kids will have to support more old folks when the kids become middle age.

I have seen many old folkes collecting empty drink cans in the streets. Maybe they have less CPF as the scheme is introduced too late for them. If this problem still exists in the future, are you trying to say that our retirement education to the citizens and CPF to help take care of us during retirement has failed? Idealy, we would want to be self sufficent to take care of ourselves in the future.

If u find no meaning,then who's fault?PAP again ,of course!!

Yes, the government's policies affect our lives. In fact, it shapes our lives into what we are now. We cannot safely say that policies made by the government has no correlation to us. It affects our lifestyle (NS, holidays we have, 5 day work week, buy expensive house to get married? and etc), finances (taxes), education...etc. I can safetly say that the government shapes our culture too.

I love Singapore! All opinions are for the betterment of ourselves and for everyone else. I did thought about joining any party, PAP included in the future when I'm successful. Why? Because policies affect our LIVES!

Food for thought: In the past our Grandparents work hard for the government and country to where we are now. Billions in reserve. Shouldn't the government provide help for them too, now that some are starving in the streets? Don't flame me, the government is doing a decent job in helping the needy, but I feel that more should be done.

stupidissmart SG

to have babies in a family is a private matter

To have a substainable population in terms of economy makes it a national direction and objective.

If there is no national interest in having babies, then on wat grounds does the gov have in implementing baby bonuses etc which is about private matters

About a conducive environment for a baby, it largely depend on your expectation. It is strange tat the poorest nations have the highest birth rate while rich nations have low birth rate. Mostly it is probably due to different expectation on wat the child should get

And stop at 2 is a policy stopped probably 20 years ago. Changing and modifying of policies over time is a sign of strength, not weakness

the Bear SG

screw that... has anyone asked why the hell should humanity keep having to have more babies?

can we try looking at it at a scientific level?

ask any scientist.. the world is overpopulated..

here's something to think about:

First principles were stood on their heads. Economic growth and social progress did not serve human beings. On the contrary, the primary function of citizens was to fuel economic growth - a weird reversal of roles.

whiskers SG

It pains me to tink that my son may have to live work shit die in a small hole call his home.., u tink ur 3room flat small? wait till u see ur son's flat...

Our next generation will need more population growth to grow... so how? after each generation we keep growing? its ok if we are aust, but look at out land mass, where are all these people going to live, we are not livestocks u know.

xtreyier SG

screw that... has anyone asked why the hell should humanity keep having to have more babies?

can we try looking at it at a scientific level?

ask any scientist.. the world is overpopulated..

here's something to think about:

err...why should humanity NOT have more babies? If we look at it from the biological level, are we depriving ourself of that capability?

Overpopulated? Hardly.

Limited resources? Impossible with our scientific progress - stacked up housing, double/tripled yield grain, etc.

Immortality? Impossible yet and years from fruitation.

Why is the scientific mind constantly looking to the stars in attempts to unravel its secrets? Maybe one day, we singaporeans may have enough to provide for ALL in all aspects of social spending and then perhaps built our own module for the International Space Station, for research and developement of the furthering of mankind.

More critically, beyond economic aspects, is the spiritual need of love, cliche as it may sound. Show me a man who needs no love and i will show you an inhuman beast. Love and the manifestation of it through our offspring, is the wild card of science and economy. I dare not even begin to presume i fully understand it.

Think about this:-

Economic growth and social progress elevated mankind beyond serfdom, decapitulated the nobility whom rule for thousands of years since the dawn of mankind and now made each and everyone of us all truly equal, with equal opportunity, black or white, rich or poor, to excel as a nation or loaf as we wish to extinction as a state, as we were scientifically and biologically created. Thus did economic growth and social progress helped us mankind?

stupidissmart SG

Sad to say, now the situation is really system first, human second.

mistyblue SG

A caged bird do not lay any eggs.

Rednano SG

A caged bird do not lay any eggs.

hens at chicken farms r caged too... and lay eggs...

cows r caged too... to pump milk.

charlize SG

hens at chicken farms r caged too... and lay eggs...

cows r caged too... to pump milk.

And then slaughtered when they can't produce milk anymore?

Instead of letting them graze in the fields for the rest of their remaining years.

xtreyier SG

A caged bird do not lay any eggs.

Theoratically, by your logic, the entire human race are analogically 'caged birds' as well, for they lived not individually, but answer and bound by specific constitutional laws as agreed upon by their civilisation.

Some 'birds' would be caged with guilded frames, and some with jail steel bars. Yet they lay eggs too. And are equally caged.

The only way to be free from cages are to live on your own, without a care to anyone. With that it will mean no one will have to care for you as well.

So do you honestly wish to be a freed bird to face the elements on your own, for yourself and your followers if any? And if you are more than one, with followers, wouldnt you set up rules too, or have no rules whereby each is equal game to each other?

JJxJJ SG

i think it should be whether one is willing to sacrifice for their children.

charlize SG

There are people who rave and rant and complain.

Then there are those that try to persuade you to see their point of view, hoping to convert your way of thinking to theirs.

Interesting.

kilua SG

i think it should be whether one is willing to sacrifice for their children.

well good luck increasing the birth rate without work life balance

pearlie27 SG

Just wondering, if they are criticising that the government wants singaporeans to have more kids just to fuel the economy and sustain growth/ the society. Then what do they think other governments are thinking of when they try to or want to increase the birth rate?

You don't seem to get the point. What they are trying to say is that Singaporeans are not reproducing because they don't feel they are treated like human beings. While other govts try to increase birth rate also for economic reasons they do treat their people as human beings with all the inalienable rights.

jojobeach SG

Parents will sacrifice for their children. That is the beauty of parenthood.

But the parent can scrimp and save .. eat porridge and maggie mee everyday. Wear clothings from thrift stores.

But which parent will want to see their own children do the same they did ?

Do you .. as a parent wants to see your children eat porridge everyday ? Do you want to see your children dressed up like a beggar ?

Do you as a parent wants your own child to come home to a empty house everyday after school ?

Answer to the above : NO. because parents are responsible for their children's well being.

jojobeach SG

to have babies in a family is a private matter

To have a substainable population in terms of economy makes it a national direction and objective.

If there is no national interest in having babies, then on wat grounds does the gov have in implementing baby bonuses etc which is about private matters

And stop at 2 is a policy stopped probably 20 years ago. Changing and modifying of policies over time is a sign of strength, not weakness

Different culture.. different social system.

In poor countries.. infant mortality rate are high.. meaning many babies do not survive their first year after birth.

They do not have a retirement system like CPF or IRA. So they depend on their children to take care of them when they are old, much like Singapore in the older days.. that's why our great/grandparents have so many kids.

So the more kids they have.. the higher chances of having more children survive .. thus the more secure their old age.

With more children.. parents will have a different perspective of life.

Back then.. even children are dispensable... because they have so many anyway.

Now.. in our modern time.. because parents have only 2-3 , children are precious... so the mindset has changed.

Back in those days.. children start working at a very young age.. some as early as 12-13. Hardwork and dilligence was all they need to succeed in life.

Nowadays.. children needs to be educated well into their 20s.. some even more..to ensure better survivals and financial independence.

The financial burden on the parents are much longer and much higher in current times.

I wonder why our gahmen cannot understand this... perhaps they are too set in their old ways ?? Their thinking are not catching up with times..... perhaps it is time to retire the old ministers .. and put in new blood.

jojobeach SG

Some 'birds' would be caged with guilded frames, and some with jail steel bars. Yet they lay eggs too. And are equally caged.

The only way to be free from cages are to live on your own, without a care to anyone. With that it will mean no one will have to care for you as well.

Havn't you heard of "Free Range Chicken" ? LOL....

They taste better and leaner too !!!

jojobeach SG

hens at chicken farms r caged too... and lay eggs...

cows r caged too... to pump milk.

Yes they lay eggs..but those eggs are not fertilized.

Caged cows falls under animal abuse.

Do you want to be abused and caged like the animals ?

Think about it , ya ?

Genie99a SG

Thanks for your forthright reply.

Written are my own words and not some 'propaganda' as you suspect.

We had been made pragmatic for so long due to circumstances, that some may lost their idealism and the very purpose of existance. My take on the birth issue is to not to be bothered by whatever politics or economics come into play, rather, be the person you want to be.

Life has it ups and down, and no person is free from the dictates of fate. We Singaporeans plan too much, and life doesnt goes very much to plan. But if we have an ideal and believe in it, it will be our own compass to guide us through life's vaguries.

It is senseless to blame the State(our society) for low birth rates, when that decision is fully ours to make, a natural instinct of humanity. No one goes to jail for making such decisions. The only person who actually suffers, is not the State( our society), but us, in our old age, doom to loneliness when we have no issue of our own.

Perhaps, the State had been rather clumsy in its attempts to prove the fruitlessness of life without children, believing that we are pragmatic beings, thus use statistical evidences to show that loneliness of old age and its finacial situation to fellow citizens.

But nonetheless, our country has a heart, and the capacity to offer a good and fruitful life to each and every citizen to have a family, based on one's merit, with full opportunities for all, white or black, rich or poor. And this is not an issue for political play, for the family unit comes first even before the nation. Without the family unit ( and i don't in all seriousness mean the Lee family) , there can be no nation. Mankind would have been extinct.

Interesting opinions here. The way I summarize this thread -

1> Govt wants to encourage more babies to support its economic expansion.

2> Singaporeans feel that the environment is not conducive and do not wish to have babies here.

3> Govt thinks of an alternative and imports "babies" in the form of foreign talent.

4> Foreign talent competes with Singaporeans for work.

5> Singaporeans are not happy with foreign talent competing with them for "rice" when they are hard pressed themselves.

7> (This has not happened yet) Govt addresses the problem that the environment here is not conducive for babies and introduce welfare to make it conducive. Singaporeans have more babies. Less foreign talent is needed. More welfare costs more money thus increase taxes for annual incomes that are considered affluent maybe? And voila! ...... akan datang

xtreyier SG

well good luck increasing the birth rate without work life balance

Propaganda is often derogatorically associated with evil regimes that seek to impose a political will against the good of society, as seen from mankind's history such as germany's 3rd reich, stalinist russia, mao's china.

But what i had proposed are nothing more than philosophies for the ideal society practiced by greeks and the western culture eons ago, mix with traditional eastern thoughts for the well being of a society. I am no Plato or Confucius. I am just a humble nobody, an ordinary citizen.

I do not seek to impose my beliefs upon anyone, but only that they consider the idealism and realities one faces with regards to the birth issue over what i had written.

Your concept of 'work life balance' is not a tantra that can be used for all situations in reality. If you are working in the govt services, you will have my fullest support for a worklife balance - with all the benefits parents should entitle such as 3 mths maternity leaves, 5 day week, allowances, etc, because your employers are none other than us - the taxpayers, members of our society and you are one of us, and we all want the best for each and everyone of citizens.

However, if you are working in the private sector, then you would have to be fair to your employers. It is their private funds that is used to create employment, get business to earn a living.

If they have to employ workers with such benefits - 3mths leave, 5 day week, no overtime, no deadlines, no pressures, there would be hardly profitable or productive to stay in business and will even fold up in time!

So how should private companies 'balance' your work life, when their very own survival depends on your regular attendence?

Another angle to look at private sector companies is that - should you dedicate your life to the company, getting promoted and elevated above your peers, and given all the material comfort you would want - by the time, if you are fortunate, after 30 years helping your boss gain fame and riches, you will have to retire.

All you will get is a handshake, a gold watch, and a thank you. Is this worth the sacrifice of giving up a family life with children for? You could have been embracing your grandchildren instead, whom will give you happiness and are priceless, worth beyond more than a miserable gold watch and a handshake, coupled with living the rest of your years with childless loneliness, watching others' children play, but none of your own.

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