Social Welfare Health costs

last SG · 2008-06-14T11:25:42+00:00

We need to pay ministers high salaries to remain competitive.We need to pay workers low salaries to remain competitive.Yeah."Man is the only creature that co...

徐顺全 SG

. I personally would like to give more to help to these old folks, but most of them had already withdrawn their min. sum in CPF, probably spent it in China, and now live on govt welfare of est.$300. But then i personally don't have that large a fund to help all. Would you like to suggest 10% GST to your MP tonight? It would certainly help.

I believe the government will only see the full benefit of the recent 2% GST hike when both IRs are up and running

crimsontactics SG

Maurizio i'll just copy and paste ur points into this post as quoting it requires lot of space. Hope you understand :)

Ok back to topic

~First of all the Transparency International Index is not a yardstick of corruption in the government, the index is a measurement for the country as a whole (e.g. businesses, the people, etc).

True. But you must understand this, if the leader of the country would be corrupted, wouldn't his assistances be corrupted too? And if they are corrupted wouldn't that bring corruption all the way down the hierachy, thus destroying the country's reputation?

Corruption is a snowball effect. The source is usually from the higher ranking and, as even the higher ranking is corrupted, other lower ranking officials will feel safer follow. This will soon flow into the public and private sector as people finds out that it is safer and profitable to be corrupted. Examples of such cases can be seen in most Asean countries.

There was this time when i went to chiang mai and brought this painting. I checked with the authorities and they say its legal to bring this back to sg. However at the airport, i was stopped by a guard who said its illegal. Guess what! I gave him 400 bhat and he immediately ASSISTED me pass the custom. If even the national security is corrupted, you could expect the same from the top.

However, will u experience such a thing i SG? I guess we people would even be afraid to bride the police. Thats how clean SG is, and that can be used to show that the government is somewhat corruption-free. Despite what i've said, i still believe that corruption still do exist in SG, just at a small extend.

~Like I said, you do not give more money to a corrupt person to prevent corruption. If a person is greedy, the amount of excess money you pay is irrelevant, laws are what binds him to the straight and narrow.

True. But are you trying to say that our officials are corrupted? If thats so pls do show me some evidences? Cause this beautiful sentence holds no strength if you can't show that a person is corrupted.

~Also, if you look at the scale of corruption free index, Singapore is ranked 4th after Denmark, Finland and New Zealand. Are the Prime Ministers and the equivalent Ministers in these countries paid in the millions like their Singaporean counterparts?

True. However, like what i said earlier, we should not use other country's standard as our own. Are you telling me that since these countries don't pay their civil servants more we should not too? Are you trying to say that we, as singaporean, should assign to whatever bondaries other nations had set up?

Rather, i think it would be better if we use their standards as a comparision and create a standard that we can call our own. Who knows? Maybe they will be following our standard and increasing their pay for civil servants.

Salary for a politician is a very sensitive subject. However, i believe everyone agrees that a person should be paid what is worth his/her contribution to the nation.

~Like I said before, show us the results first before even exploiting the commoners.

Proof pls?

~So have the standard of living for Korean, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers, but are their Ministers paid in the millions?

I've personally been to Taiwan and stayed they with a friend who was living there. Yes, that country have a high standard of living. However, compared to sg, i should say that taiwan's sercurity and S.O.L still have place to catch up.

So if i were to credit the politicians, i would definetly say that Sg's gov deserve a higher pay than taiwan's gov. Though i am in no position to say the exact amount.

~Old folks scavenging in the streets for cardboard boxes and aluminium cans; old folks not being able to afford medical treatment.

True. Very true indeed. It makes me think whether our gov is worth it whenever i met up with this people who deserve a better living standard.

However, i also see many,many more people who drive BMWs,

many, many teenagers who owns hps, mp3s/ipods, laptops

many, many aunties going for high tea in orchard

So i guess you know what i'm getting at.

I know by now you may think that imma PAP dog. I'm not, as a matter of fact there are many points i hate about our gov, its just that i find it best if we would be more open minded and learn to accept more alternative POVs. These will allow us to think deeper into each and every issue, rather than make pointless commend which can easily b swept under the rug by gov.

maurizio13 SG

governing singapore is never going to be easy with its no resources and limited people ....thus we need to have the best government who r dedicated and capable to run it......thus the high salaries to ensure the ministers' hearts r with the country's hopes and future. Normally the term has to that of at least 4 yrs or more to see the results of the policies in effect by these leaders...... no doublt singapore leaders may not endear themselves to some pple here, but at least the country as a whole has come a long way from before. Take note that a yes government may not even live to its end of term, not to mention for decades.....

to me, singapore government adopts more of a top down approach to bring the country forward if ever there is such a term for politics....... they look into the macro view first, solving problems from the top, that from country, to economy, to sectors, to industries, to companies, to family households, and finally to the individual himself.

it is a filtering down of benefits from policies developed by our leaders to hopefully benefit everyone. Thus with industrailization and inflows of huge investments from global corporations, the economy will spin off, leading to supporting industries like construction, real estate, finance, etc, There will be filtering down of benefits to the working man, who will be rewarded by money, company welfare perks, etc due to profitability. Of cos, then it will filter down to his family, affordability of housing, education, medical etc., right down even to the single person from the day, he was born into singapore citizenship.

On the other end, if we have a government who adopts a bottom up approach to address the people's needs first like medical, education, or even food, where are the money to fund all these going to come from??? In no time, this leaders will not last for long, the pple has no jobs, no house, no money except to live on the empty promises made by these politicians who will lie about anything to get into power and get get their money back many folds through corrupted means.

thus we cant have a government who meets every need or want of its pple. Something has to give, if u want freedom to express, at least be reasonable to back up with constructive feedback coupled with responsilbity and not to incite riots or demonstations which all these can bring down singapore in less than mths.

In fact, singapore has opened up with change of times n leadership, it is prepared to listen to its pple, and its leaders have started to share some of the money directly with the citizens through cash and also through lower corporate and personal income tax through these recent yrs. Though the critics may say that the government is taxing higher through gst increase all that, but think, isnt this a fair way to finance the budget through consumer spending than taxing everyone indiscriminately through a higher personal income tax at the end of the year... ..mind u this, there r many developed countries with a very high tax rate for its pple, not discriminating much whether they r high, middle or low income earners, to finance its huge annual budget requirements which includes giving dole to its unemployeds, who then uses it to travel to a cheaper country.

singapore is an accidental country. But its progress has been less than accidental...... With the strong leadership of our capable, selfless. dedicated team, we can go further beyond, with yr confidence, support and belief. Nothing is left to chance, and we will continue to improve, with or without its critics..........so hop onboard!

Don't need to wait more than 4 years to know where things are heading here. We are already feeling the effects of the 2% increase resulting in inflation and the increase in foreign talents to deprive our own citizens of jobs. Maybe you can elaborate what kind of policies that needs a time horizon of afew decades? The Global Crossing, Shin Corp, Suzhou Industrial Project, Merill Lynch or UBS? That's a common understanding amongst investors, if they lose money in the stock market, they will claim it as a long term investment with time horizons of afew decades. So long as they don't sell, it's still a paper loss.

Benefits filtering down to the common men? Hardly, the common men are facing job losses due to foreign talents. The situation is, the increase in GST and Electricity tariffs has brought about supernormal profits for the government, but they decide to put it back into the coffers and let citizens suffer. Which utility organisation in the world earns 20% return on equity? Most earn around 10% in the US, while banks in Singapore earn less than 15% return on equity.

Whether it be top down approach, bottom down approach or even sideways approach, the integrity of the politician is of the utmost important. While they persist in self authorizing their pay increments to afew millions, concomitantly asking that low wage workers bite the bullet by taking pay cuts. Hardly the case for most large organisations, most of the time senior management takes a higher pay cut than the lower rungs.

Each country has it's own set of problems to deal with, not that any country with or without resources is immune these problems. Hong Kong for example was a colony of the British empire, a similar set of circumstances, yet Hong Kong developed into a far better country than Singapore.

maurizio13 SG

Like I said before, show us the results first before even exploiting the commoners. Have we reached the Swiss Standard of living? How much are the leaders paid in Switzerland?

What is Swiss standards? - A rolls royce in every household?

So have the standard of living for Korean, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers, but are their Ministers paid in the millions?

Why don't you ask them for a full disclosure of their assets and see where they get their additional money from besides their paltry pay?

If you think we have already arrrived, I guess it's just self delusional again. Old folks scavenging in the streets for cardboard boxes and aluminium cans; old folks not being able to afford medical treatment.

I doubt if we had arrived, but its almost there. I personally would like to give more to help to these old folks, but most of them had already withdrawn their min. sum in CPF, probably spent it in China, and now live on govt welfare of est.$300. But then i personally don't have that large a fund to help all. Would you like to suggest 10% GST to your MP tonight? It would certainly help.

If you have evidence as to corrupt behaviours of these politicians in other countries, don't hesitate to provide us with facts of these corrupt behaviours. Else don't speculate.

If you still don't have the mentality to understand, we have a budget surplus every year. Temasek has funds that belong to Singaporeans. These increases in investment values are from overcharging her citizens through government monopolies. Why not distribute the excess of these investment returns (leaving the capital intact) to citizens so that they can have more of a life? Or you prefer to build up funds like what NKF does, for a doomsday event that will never occur.

crimsontactics SG

i like your definitions alot, however, saying that sg's progress is accidental, i think that is very wrong.

Success don't come by accidents. It is obtained through smart decisions, personal sacrifices and hard work. Thats what makes us who we are today.

crimsontactics SG

Like I said before, show us the results first before even exploiting the commoners. Have we reached the Swiss Standard of living? How much are the leaders paid in Switzerland?

What is Swiss standards? - A rolls royce in every household?

So have the standard of living for Korean, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers, but are their Ministers paid in the millions?

Why don't you ask them for a full disclosure of their assets and see where they get their additional money from besides their paltry pay?

This problem can't be solve solely by rising GST. Instead, rising the GST will just backfires and will hurt their already broken pockets more.

From my understanding of your post, i'll will take it that you are emphasising on how our elderly today have weak financial management.

Partially true. However, have you taken into consideration that they may had use their life savings to fund their unfilial children studies or business? Or perhaps was being cheated of all of their possession?

Don't make it sound as though they are some loli folks who spend their money on chinese xmm.

maurizio13 SG

Maurizio i'll just copy and paste ur points into this post as quoting it requires lot of space. Hope you understand :)

Ok back to topic

~First of all the Transparency International Index is not a yardstick of corruption in the government, the index is a measurement for the country as a whole (e.g. businesses, the people, etc).

Salary for a politician is a very sensitive subject. However, i believe everyone agrees that a person should be paid what is worth his/her contribution to the nation.

~Like I said before, show us the results first before even exploiting the commoners.

Proof pls?

~So have the standard of living for Korean, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers, but are their Ministers paid in the millions?

So if i were to credit the politicians, i would definetly say that Sg's gov deserve a higher pay than taiwan's gov. Though i am in no position to say the exact amount.

~Old folks scavenging in the streets for cardboard boxes and aluminium cans; old folks not being able to afford medical treatment.

True. Very true indeed. It makes me think whether our gov is worth it whenever i met up with this people who deserve a better living standard.

However, i also see many,many more people who drive BMWs,

many, many teenagers who owns hps, mp3s/ipods, laptops

many, many aunties going for high tea in orchard

So i guess you know what i'm getting at.

That's why there are laws enacted to curtail such acts. Law is a deterrent to corruption, not money, which is the initiator to corruption. Ask yourself this, if your own child steals $1,000 from you. Do you give him $2,000 to prevent him from stealing from you again; or do you explain to him his actions and give him punishment ? Isn't this what the government is doing? To prevent his Ministers from being corrupt, he gives them more money.

That's why you need CPIB to be reporting directly to an independant President, instead of reporting to the Prime Minister. If a CEO discovers issues with his management team, be it fraud or otherwise, it is more likely that a CEO will cover up such issues before it reaches the shareholders. Laws govern the actions and behaviour of all who are bound by it. Of course if all the CEO in the world thinks like LKY or LHL, then they will be paying money in excess of the actual rate to the management team, so that they won't be corrupt.

Do they have anti corruption laws in Thailand? Is it strictly enforced by the government? Maybe they should follow the actions of the Singapore government, increase the salary of these custom officers by SGD100,000 a year, then all of these officers will cease to be corrupt.

People here won't even dare try bribing. Why? Because we have laws that prevent corruption. Going by LKY and LHL logic, maybe it's better to pay these police officers another $5,000 each month, so that they won't be corrupt.

By the amount of salary they are receiving, it's very clearcut that the amount they received has elements of corruption money (they would receive if they engage in corruption) built into it. If other world leaders are getting SGD300,000 a year, Singapore leaders are paid SGD3 million, won't the excess of the SGD2.7 million be the amount that they would receive if they were corrupt. Maybe you can cite which other country in the world, Ministers are paid $3 million (other benefits not included)?

It is the global standard, a benchmark for all to follow. Don't see any reason why we should divert from it. Do you live on Earth or Mars?

Our standards are substandards, else we won't be following Oxbridge for our entrance exams. Even the textbooks we read are written by anglophone authors. Laws are even copied over from the British, of course with changes to limit the liberty of the humankind.

Salary for a politician is a very sensitive subject. However, i believe everyone agrees that a person should be paid what is worth his/her contribution to the nation.

I believe a person should be paid for his position and responsibility. Else very soon we will be paying plumbers like Bill Gates afew millions to repair our faucets. Doesn't seem logical to be having a PM that used to be a renowned heart surgeon paid $10 million a year to run the government. His skill set is different to the task at hand.

Proof pls?

Are you blind? HDB, GST, ERP, Petrol Tax, COE, excessive Electricity Tariffs, Hospital Charges, etc.

The cost of living is many times less than Singapore. Security wise, it's still acceptable, you don't see any terrorist bomb going off anywhere.

So if i were to credit the politicians, i would definetly say that Sg's gov deserve a higher pay than taiwan's gov. Though i am in no position to say the exact amount.

Seriously, you don't need much intellect to run Singapore, turn it to a stricter police state, limit human rights and during election time buy the electorate by giving out Singapore Shares. You don't have to fool everyone, you just need to fool the poor, the old, and the stupid, because they are the most vulnerable. Afew thousand dollars would buy their vote.

True. Very true indeed. It makes me think whether our gov is worth it whenever i met up with this people who deserve a better living standard.

However, i also see many,many more people who drive BMWs,

many, many teenagers who owns hps, mp3s/ipods, laptops

many, many aunties going for high tea in orchard

So i guess you know what i'm getting at.

So does this mean that ALL Singaporeans have BMWs and Notebooks? What you are seeing is just a segment of the population, it is in no way representative of the whole population. Maybe you should take a walk in those 1 room and 2 room HDB blocks; or maybe take a walk in some of the void decks during the wee hours of the night. I remembered last year, someone in the forum asked if everybody received a raise, most replied "yes". But is this representative of the whole population of Singapore? No. It only represents a well to do segment of the population who has access to a broadband internet account, time to spare from the better paying jobs, possession of a notebook or PC. These are often the well to do segment of the population. If you take a look at the Gini Coefficient, it has increased quite significantly through the years. Which more or less proves that the rich are getting richer, while the poor are getting poorer.

Don't need to think who you are, I already know who you are.

crimsontactics SG

I agree with your views. But there are some misconceptions that i want to highlight to you.

1st, HK is not a far better country than SIngapore. Yes its HDI won SG's by a little, but its GDP per capita and living space cannot be matched with SG's. I think it would be more appropiate if we say that both countries are of an equal standard with its own high points and low points.

2nd, Senior management are supposed to get more than the lower rung. If not, why would there be promotions?

3rd, Yes, FTs have been and will be a challenge to us local men, who needs to go through NS and thus delay our career. However, the only people whom i hear have problem over job issues are those who dosen't want to improve themselves or don't have the die-die-must-fight mentality that is crucial for success. It is not that they are better than us in any way, its just that some of us can't take up the challenge.

DeerHunter SG

If you have evidence as to corrupt behaviours of these politicians in other countries, don't hesitate to provide us with facts of these corrupt behaviours. Else don't speculate.

Speculations? Do you even read the newpapers?

"Don't have the mentality to understand" - so you do? The only thing i see you understand is that with a budget surplus, and you claim from 'overcharging her citizens through monopolies'.

1.) Have you any definitive proof of such 'overcharging' - which means over and above the normal rates others' charge? For example:- healthcare - the govt charges more than private clinics and hospitals. HDB flats costs more than Condos. School fees more than what a Singaporean would have to pay if he studies in eg; Australia or US, which are of comparable if not lower standards than our high school equivalent.( Not comparing Colleges, Uni, as the standards are higher there)

2. ) How much of these investments returns will be? You left out the amounts, on purpose? Usually it is much lower and seldom more than double digits. Would that be enough to fund social spending in education, healthcare, transportation, etc?

3. ) NKF is a private charity foundation. It's monies are non-refundable. It was a good thing our media, whom you profess as a govt mouthpiece, spilt the beans on its mismanagement. Only a fool would use NKF as a comparison to our treasury.

Unlike NKF, our funds in the treasury are in terms of CPF and tax revenues and have to be returned back to the People, espacially CPF which promises 4% annual returns. How else to give such returns except to invest it prudently for slightly more than the 4% returns, and with any excess, use it for social spending so as not to tax the citizens further?

As any investor knows, risk adverse blue chip investments are in it for the long haul and seldom see double digit % annual returns. You claim a doomsday will never come. Why don't you work out how much actual medical care subsidy alone costs are, espacially with our aging population whom requires it most and tell me if even with a budget surplus used solely just for it, if we can promise full medical care for them ALL.

The only reason why our health care subsidize are not more than S$1.6billion this year is rather, fortunately or unfortunately, patients cannot even afford the 'co-pay' of 20% on the full course of treatment, and would rather take pills to sustain themselves to see another sunrise till the pain overcomes their heartbeats. I don't mind to subsidize all, pay more taxes, but what about CPF monies which must be returned with interests earned from investments? Where will other money come from other than us whom are gainfully employed? What about other funds for social spendings?

Any person would realize the importance of saving up monies. Can you tell what the future will be? You can't. Better to be safe, than sorry, for the sake of our future generations, just as the previous generations sacrificed for us all now. $100 million in our coffers in 1965 didn't grow to become US$300 billion by magic, but by prudent management with strict controls, so that we can still afford within our ability to help most, if not all of those less well off than us.

crimsontactics SG

It is the global standard, a benchmark for all to follow. Don't see any reason why we should divert from it. Do you live on Earth or Mars?

Salary for a politician is a very sensitive subject. However, i believe everyone agrees that a person should be paid what is worth his/her contribution to the nation.

Proof pls?

Are you blind? HDB, GST, ERP, Petrol Tax, COE, excessive Electricity Tariffs, Hospital Charges, etc.

The cost of living is many times less than Singapore. Security wise, it's still acceptable, you don't see any terrorist bomb going off anywhere.

So if i were to credit the politicians, i would definetly say that Sg's gov deserve a higher pay than taiwan's gov. Though i am in no position to say the exact amount.

True. Very true indeed. It makes me think whether our gov is worth it whenever i met up with this people who deserve a better living standard.

However, i also see many,many more people who drive BMWs,

many, many teenagers who owns hps, mp3s/ipods, laptops

many, many aunties going for high tea in orchard

So i guess you know what i'm getting at.

Don't need to think who you are, I already know who you are.

Law is a deterrent to corruption, not money, which is the initiator to corruption. Ask yourself this, if your own child steals $1,000 from you. Do you give him $2,000 to prevent him from stealing from you again; or do you explain to him his actions and give him punishment ?

Firstly, you must ask yourself why your child want to steal? Is it purely greed? Or is it because you've not been giving him pocket money?

That's why you need CPIB to be reporting directly to an independant President, instead of reporting to the Prime Minister.

This point i agree with you totally. However, i can predict the "independant President" part will be a little hard to get.

Of course if all the CEO in the world thinks like LKY or LHL, then they will be paying money in excess of the actual rate to the management team, so that they won't be corrupt.

Well, i find that your views lack evidence despite showing your strong understanding about our nation's politics. If you're going to accuse someone of something, make it a point to have backups, reliable ones rather than the usual ERP etc.

~Do they have anti corruption laws in Thailand? Is it strictly enforced by the government?

Every country have one, even nigeria. It is suppose to be "strictly enforced" though, cause no government is going say it is corrupted.

~Maybe they should follow the actions of the Singapore government, increase the salary of these custom officers by SGD100,000 a year, then all of these officers will cease to be corrupt.

By then there will no longer be PAP.

~Because we have laws that prevent corruption.

So why are you still saying that our folks up there are corrupted?

~It is the global standard, a benchmark for all to follow. Don't see any reason why we should divert from it. Do you live on Earth or Mars?

You're merely repeating what i've said, doesn't a benchmark act as a comparision? I do see a reason though, to have something we can call our own. I live on Earth if that is what you wanna know.

~Our standards are substandards, else we won't be following Oxbridge for our entrance exams.

You can't compare the educational system in accoradance to how you run your country. BTW isn't it suppose to be Oxford or something? UK's educational system maybe better than ours, but i can say that Tony Blair screwed up by assisting the american in Iraq.

~I believe a person should be paid for his position and responsibility.

A useless person is a person who can't show results

A responsible person who have a high rank but can't show result is still a useless person

Do you want to use your tax money to pay a useless person?

~Are you blind? HDB, GST, ERP, Petrol Tax, COE, excessive Electricity Tariffs, Hospital Charges, etc.

Yes, it does seem that they are trying to suck out our money. But there is still reasons behind the all these charges. ( though i hate paying them :P)

~The cost of living is many times less than Singapore.

Of course! Their average pay is also lesser than SG's.

~Seriously, you don't need much intellect to run Singapore, turn it to a stricter police state, limit human rights and during election time buy the electorate by giving out Singapore Shares.

Is it? So are you telling me that you have the capability to run this country?

~You don't have to fool everyone, you just need to fool the poor, the old, and the stupid, because they are the most vulnerable. Afew thousand dollars would buy their vote.

The poor, old and stupid have brains too you know. You'll be shocked when you see how they utilise them.

~So does this mean that ALL Singaporeans have BMWs and Notebooks? What you are seeing is just a segment of the population, it is in no way representative of the whole population.

Yes and No. This doesn't mean all Sgeans. But it isn't a segment, it's the majority of the population.

Go down any road, except backstreets, and you can find a least one subaru, evo, bm, mec or other fancy cars.

Go ard and ask any teen if they have a hp. I did a survey due to a project last year and found out that 7 out of 10 teens have hp. The number shuld have increased by now.

~Don't need to think who you are, I already know who you are.

I'll take that as a compliment :)

There are some problems with the colouring, like half-way though run out of colour, sry folks gotta strain your eyes a little.

fymk SG

I just wonder alot by reading all these posts. Yes, LKY did alot of good for Singapore as Tun Perak did for Malacca. Then you have mercenaries aka FT coming in. And when Tun Perak died , Malacca started declining because he didn't pass the reins down properly to have a stranglehold on power. Is Singapore going the same way too?

I applaud LKY on how he runs around the world on Singaporean business despite his age . However how much use is it if he keeps running the country behind the scene when his son should be taking on the reins and doing what he does? LKY should just stop what he is doing now and enjoy his golden years. At least if LHL makes a mistake , he still can consult daddy on how to fix it . Not just let daddy run about when it is his job to do so. I worry about the succession issue when LKY does die.

jojobeach SG

Russia, like other oil rich middle east countries, are nations which are more recession proof than others during the time of high energy prices. What Singapore government is trying to do is to diversify our risk so that during time of recession, our country will still have foreign investments coming into Singapore, because foreign investment create jobs.

Singapore and GCC in the mist of concluding a free trade agreement, while recently we have seen an influx of big spending Russian tourists coming to singapore for holiday and seek medical cares.

Beside that, Singapore government is also trying to encourage Russia to engage East Asia, because a strong and stable Asia will benefit Singapore. I am sure the business delegate who joined LKY for this trip will also have their own agenda.

If I am a businessman from Russia, I will feel honored to be able to host LKY at my country and listen to what he has to say about my country and the region. I will also admire him for making time to attend this event which was planned way before his wife is sick and the court case with Dr. Chee. Plus I will also admire the fitness of this 85 year old man, his quick thinking and knowledge.

LOL...

If you are the businessman from Russia and think so highly of LKY.

You'd come to Singapore to meet him, when you know his wife is dying.

Instead of making that old man fly all the way to Russia now.. wouldn't ya ?

And with current IT technology.. you telling me he couldn't jolly well arrange a teleconference with your dear hero ?

Dude.... your admiration for the man is indeed admirable.