Social Welfare Health costs

last SG · 2008-06-14T11:25:42+00:00

We need to pay ministers high salaries to remain competitive.We need to pay workers low salaries to remain competitive.Yeah."Man is the only creature that co...

crimsontactics SG

1) GDP per capita is not a precise yardstick to measure the standard of living. Take Taiwan for instance, a GDP per capita of USD 16,500 while Singapore with a GDP per capita of USD 35,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Taiwanese food & beverage workers get paid NT$ 37,313 per month (SG$1,696), while Singapore food & beverage workers get paid SG$1,654. Singaporean F&B workers actually get paid less than their Taiwanese counterparts, the Taiwanese GDP per capita is actually half that of Singapore. (SG$ 1 = NT$ 22)

http://eng.stat.gov.tw/mp.asp?mp=5

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/reference/mdsmay08.pdf

2) Did I question why senior management should get more, don't put words in my mouth again. I said that in a crunch most senior management will take a higher percentage pay cut than the lower rank and file workers.

3) Not that Singaporeans can compete on an equal footing, it's just that we are being made to compete on uneven ground. The foreign talent (FT), does not have much liabilities in Singapore. Compare a FT who sends back SG$100 to his folks in China, his parents will get RMB500, the parents can probably survive for above 2 weeks with that amount. Take a Singaporean who gives his parents SG$100. How long can SG$100 last in Singapore? With each meal costing $5 multiply by 2 person and 3 meals a day, it would cost $30 a day to maintain 2 elderlies (housing, transport and utilities not included). If both are frugal, most likely the $100 would last 3 days.

Don't be daft in thinking that we have to keep importing foreigners to maintain a competitive edge, only a regime deprive of any other ideas will resort to low balling a 3rd world country in terms of wages. If you keep importing FT without limits, you essentially deprive the citizen population of normal work, driving down wages to that of 3rd world countries like China and India and lowering standards of living for the entire population.

This was what you wrote on page 6,

While they persist in self authorizing their pay increments to afew millions, concomitantly asking that low wage workers bite the bullet by taking pay cuts. Hardly the case for most large organisations, most of the time senior management takes a higher pay cut than the lower rungs.

This was what i wrote on page 6,

2nd, Senior management are supposed to get more than the lower rung. If not, why would there be promotions?

Am i, by anyways, putting words in your mouth?

1) Yes, you are right. GDP is not a precise measure for every industries. However, it is the average amount of salary earned by the people of that particular country. So for fair comparision, I think its fair to use GDP as a form of measurement. We have to judge a country's progress as a whole, not by indiviual industries.

3) Yes, we are competing with FTs on an uneven ground. However, that uneven ground refers to the knowledge and experience, not monetary gains.

Yes, the living cost in their homeland is low, $100 can last their parents for 2 weeks there while it only last for 3 days here, but have you considered that most FTs coming from such countries are actually your construction or factory workers?

So are you telling me that its fair to compare our pay with theirs?

Those FTs that are earning big bucks here mostly comes from first-world countries. They may earn more than us when we start, but we have to know that cost of living in their countries are higher than ours.

If you keep importing FT without limits, you essentially deprive the citizen population of normal work, driving down wages to that of 3rd world countries like China and India and lowering standards of living for the entire population.

That will depend on the occupation you are aiming for. However, the likelihood of a wage war is very little. Its something like quality vs quantity. Yes, such FTs are trained engineer and IT consultants, however, they are some sort like "mass-produced", when it comes to R&D and anything that doesn't do with the basic work ( like repairing and such), i think we, local folks, have more knowledge and are more reliable than them.

fymk SG

"You are the guru in running away from the discussion by bringing in new issues, putting words in others mouth and profanities."

Right now, you are putting words into my mouth and making unfounded claims on my person. You just lost your credibility, and i will demolish every single one of your arguments easily, and with facts. Don't be smug, wiseguy.

"1) The charges for the 12 private hospitals ranges from HKD 320 (SGD 62.38 ) to HKD 900 (First Class Wards). I used HKD 450 to HKD 550 which is misleading,........ Maybe we should try comparing Hong Kong's Public Hospital and so called "heavily subsidised" Singapore Public Hospital.

http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/270194?page=2

Oxford mushroom had proven your misleading statements. Must you continue to tell half truth to support your useless overinflated ego? Others may want to click on that link above. I have no wish to continue to argue on the old point with a fool, debunked already by someone else.

"b. )Our electricity rate is grossly overpriced when compared to a comparable country like Australia (in terms of GDP per capita).

.......Well I guess so long as Singaporeans are lapping it up, then it's not a big issue. "

You fool! How much tax do the Australians pay? Do you know they are one of the highest in the world? Of course they can show a lower cost to their direct charges. And you had been carrying on with this power costing to prove our govt of 'over-charging' as a smoking gun. But it only makes you look like another complete village idiot!

2) 18% of $160 billions is $28.8 billions. $28.8 billions is the amount of investment revenue that the government has deprived it's citizen from, instead it is insistent on increasing GST and other charges to build up NKF type reserves for doomsday scenario that will never happen.

Doomsday scenario that will never happen? It's your belief, but the fact is, the country is facing an aging population whose tax contribution will dwindle down eventually. Then what? Add more taxes to our young. Go on with your beliefs, but people prefer facts than your fantasies.

3) They couldn't cover up the NKF issue any more. I still remember when the mismanagement of NKF was raised, alot of the politicians said it's normal and even a politician's wife claim that it was peanuts compared to what the politicians are receiving. But as the event unfolds, more public anger ensued, that's only when the government stepped in.

You are maligning the govt without evidence. NKF is an individual issue by itself. If you have evidence of mismanagement on the management of our coffers, then prove it. IF not, then you are doing nothing more than to speculate and spread sedition.

We have a surplus budget every year and we have investments from Temasek that are giving them 18% a year. The budget is separate from the investments in Temasek. Budget has surpluses and Temasek has investment returns of 18%. To whom does the money in Temasek belong to? Singaporeans or the Leegime? Isn't it common practice to return excess funds back to shareholders, in terms of share price increases or share repurchase schemes.

Again you malign the govt. Are you claiming that the investments returns went into the Lee's pockets? You better be more specific and back it up with facts, otherwise, you are again giving wild speculations and not facts. The returns belong to the People to be used for savings and further investments to generate more returns so that taxes can be kept low in years to come, more so when we have no resources to depend on.

Don't be daft in telling us that CPF is risk free, but is it inflation risk free? Essentially any investment guaranteed by the central bank is risk free, because central banks have the authority to issue money. But issuing money indiscriminately would only result in inflation. The current forecasted inflation is in the region of 7-8% this year, interest rates in CPF only hovers around 2-3%. So citizens have been forcibly tied down into CPF decreasing their purchasing power for the future.

Investments on a short time frame is always risky, but the Singapore government with it's collective of CPF savings is able to iron out the creases from investments cycles (where stocks go down and up). Why are they able to iron out the uncertainty in investment cycles? It's because not everyone draws on their retirement savings at the same time.

Say with age bands from 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. While the 70s year old band are drawing out on their retirement savings, the 20s to 60s are still contributing to their CPF accounts. Therefore if there was an investment downturn when the 70s are drawing on their retirement savings, the government is still able to hold on to their investments till the next boom of the investment cycles.

But what the government has done is take out the average returns from equity market of about 10% to 15% and replace it with a low yield 2% to 3% interest rate for CPF account holders. They have profitted the difference of 12% into the state coffers at the expense of CPF account holders.

You are the only one daft here. The CPF returns are guaranteed by the govt. As with guarantees, it is a promise which must be upheld. The safest way to ensure such promises can be realized is to offer lower returns. 18% returns today does not mean we will get 18% tomorrow. Whatever the excess, it is plough back into our coffers for savings, investments and social spending.

Risk on a long term horizon with a massive funds company (Singapore) is always negligible, because stock markets will always rebound after a certain period (be it recession). If they don't, we'd all be jobless and dead.

I fully agree with you on this. Only thing is, no one knows for sure when is the exact time. Thus the need for caution, and calls for capable managers to watch over funds.

Doubtless that you will bring up new issues again and start putting words in my mouth again. Please retort the facts presented here with facts and analysis instead of bringing in new issues. Settle the current issues presented here before squirming away with new issues to detract from the discussion. You are the guru in running away from the discussion by bringing in new issues, putting words in others mouth and profanities. I don't have time to argue new topics each time you lose the current issue at hand.

NO new issues. I answered all of them. Anything else? But you in your stubborn way will never agree to what i had written. So be it. YOu keep to your beliefs, and me mine. But the readers out there will be better able to discern the truth themselves.

1. Charges for HK is for bed only so is SGH 's cost. OM is a doctor in UK - I won't trust what he says . He does not work in HongKong. Did you know SGH also charges patients for what you have mentioned? They have a sticker system :) . Peel the sticker and paste it on the patient's charge sheet. Toilet paper also charged .

2. Australian wages are also high to cover the costs of taxes. Plus hospital stay is free with heavily subsidised medicare and Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Welfare is also covered as well. So don't wrongly state that their electricity charges are lower because of the taxation system. Some states have privatised their electricity utilities and Temasek has a share in one of Victoria's many privatised electricity companies.

3. Ask the government to open its accounting books ,then for the sake of transparency . I await it with bated breath.

will4 SG

1) GDP per capita is not a precise yardstick to measure the standard of living. Take Taiwan for instance, a GDP per capita of USD 16,500 while Singapore with a GDP per capita of USD 35,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

http://eng.stat.gov.tw/mp.asp?mp=5

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/reference/mdsmay08.pdf

I think u statement is a reflection on the brain drain happening in this country in which 1000 locals gave up their local citizenship.

DeerHunter SG

3. Ask the government to open its accounting books ,then for the sake of transparency . I await it with bated breath.

Talk about brain drain. If post such as yours are a reflection of brain drain, it would literally be brains down the drain. What a waste of cerebral matter.

How big is Australia?

What is their population size?

What are their resources?

What are their personal income tax?

Comparing Australia with Singapore on health care?

£Ĭ€ڰ SG

Talk about brain drain. If post such as yours are a reflection of brain drain, it would literally be brains down the drain. What a waste of cerebral matter.

How big is Australia?

What is their population size?

What are their resources?

What are their personal income tax?

Comparing Australia with Singapore on health care?

Tax paying Australians I know are all cursing at the public hospital. most end up buying their own health insurance and seek private medical care. One of them even told me how impressed she was when she accompany her singaporean mum to our polyclinic.

maurizio13 SG

I think u statement is a reflection on the brain drain happening in this country in which 1000 locals gave up their local citizenship.

Strange isn't it? A country like Taiwan with half the value of GDP per capita as compared to Singapore, has a slightly higher average wage for it's workers.

The issue with Singapore is the distribution of income, the bulk of it is concentrated at the top, while the poor gets pittance. They drive down the wages of below average income earners by increasing the supply of foreign talents. The lower wages increases the profitability of the company, which goes into paying off the stellar salaries of the CEO and higher management. A good part of those high flying CEOs are relatives of the regime. Folks such as LHY sitting in comfy seats getting big fat salary, bonus and stock options.

will4 SG

Strange isn't it? A country like Taiwan with half the value of GDP per capita as compared to Singapore, has a slightly higher average wage for it's workers.

There is a book on this country in which the investment for Suzhou or Biopolis went awry.

DeerHunter SG

"You are the guru in running away from the discussion by bringing in new issues, putting words in others mouth and profanities."

http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/270194?page=2

Where did oxford mushroom prove to me that the cost of hospitalisation is less in Singapore as compared to Hong Kong? Please quote.

"b. )Our electricity rate is grossly overpriced when compared to a comparable country like Australia (in terms of GDP per capita).

.......Well I guess so long as Singaporeans are lapping it up, then it's not a big issue. "

So now you are telling me the taxes that Singaporeans pay is related to Singapore Power? ACTEWAGL and HEC are related to the government and government will give them money to make their electricity cheaper. How come Singapore government never give Singapore Power money to make electricity cheaper? We pay more taxes than Hong Kong, we have GST and Hong Kong has low income tax rates and NO GST. Evidence already given to you, if you can't comprehend, I can't help it.

Tax contribution dwindle then? The government also don't serve out welfare payouts for the aging. It's time they learn how to balance their budget by taking less pay, trim the fats from the Ministers, do away with redundant SM and MM. If you company makes less sales. 1) Do you as a CEO control your cost? or 2) Charge a higher price for all your products? What you are doing is raising your price with lower sales to boost profit margins so as to squeeze out more from consumers to pay for the astronomical salaries of your CEO, CFO, CIO, etc. Hardly a logical move for any competent CEO.

Don't worry our honourable Ministers will import more foreign talents to snuff out the old folks. Leave the old folks to their own devices on the MRT tracks lor. Less old folks, more foreign talents means more taxes and foreign workers levy. So a situation of more aging is quite impossible with the current influx of young foreign talents.

Not to mention the logic of your thinking is not sound, I have seen old folks in their 70s and 80s working, contributing to the economy. Having an active income which is taxed by the IRAS. Haven't the government promoted the idea of old folks working to the grave? What happened to this scheme? You threw out the government's scheme single handedly?

Hahaha.....What did I malign? You are just a sheepdog herding the sheeps with threats when you can't post a credible response. I am not a sheep, thus you can't herd me.

I said what I said, whatever you infer from the statements with your limited comprehension ability is of your own maleficence, none of my doing. It's the usual threats from you when you can't respond to questions and points.

We are not talking about tomorrow we will be getting less than 18% dude. It's a cradle to death situation, you buy the stock, you hold it, reap the dividends and share price growth. Anybody would know that if you (as an individual) purchase the stock, the share price might decrease tomorrow, but in time, it will increase again. But with constraints to your needs of liquidity, you might need to sell at a lower price when you are in dire need of cash. But as the government holds the CPF money of all it's citizens, the citizens are locked in till retirement at 65 (assuming), there is no need for the government to force sell the investment to raise cash for somebody's retirement (only those above 65 or 70) will cash out. The government only need maintains a certain percentage in liquid assets and the rest in equity. The government can always print money to cover the CPF payouts, if say tomorrow all our investments are lost in the stock market. Can the government raise money to pay those in retirement? Yes, because the central bank can always print more money.

CPF is an insurance scheme that pays less than average bond coupon rates. It has all the attributes of an insurance scheme, long term in excess of 40-50 years and no withdrawals from account is allowed. Guess what are the returns for insurance held to maturity. Shouldn't an investment with the characteristics of an insurance scheme be paid rates similar to an insurance scheme?

I fully agree with you on this. Only thing is, no one knows for sure when is the exact time. Thus the need for caution, and calls for capable managers to watch over funds.

Your are entitled to your self conceptions or self deceptions. This post is just to clear up some misconceptions of yours.

Singapore Powers is 100% owned by Temasek Holdings.Temasek is not a private enterprise but owned by the State, which is the People of Singapore. Most countries of the world right now is cutting subsidies and discouraging use of fossilized fuels. Whatever that may seemed an excess is nothing more than a fee to discourage wastage of the world's natural resources. And such fees are credited back into Temasek's profits account, which belongs to the People. How other countries, such as resource rich Australia, settle such issues, it is not for us to comment.

The government also don't serve out welfare payouts for the aging.

This is an blatant and outright attempt to mislead. Have you heard of Community Development Council ( CDC)? are you aware of the public assistance schemes for the elderly such as cash grants and free medical assistance by our govt, the ones you are bleeting like a sheep "PAP bad, SDP, other political opposition good"?

http://www.cdc.org.sg/1169433071305/1162796276360.html

You make me sick.

The government can always print money to cover the CPF payouts, if say tomorrow all our investments are lost in the stock market. Can the government raise money to pay those in retirement? Yes, because the central bank can always print more money.

What are you infering? Are you saying the central bank can just print more money even if it is not backed? Investments lost as in totally wiped out and not paper losses? Are you claiming issuing of 'banana notes?' Do you even know what you talking about or claiming??? You better be specific. I have no wish to infer or make assumptions on what you said.

CPF is an insurance scheme

It is not. Just because it has characteristics similar with insurance endowment policies, it is not. The money collected into insurance companies belongs to private hands that are not accountable to the public. It's final payout is often subjected to performance of the company. The payout is not guaranteed. Read their fine print.

CPF is guaranteed. You can use it to fund your house and medical expenses and pay only similar interest rates. You cannot with endowment policies, which if it is loaned out and not every single penny of it, you pay higher than market interest rates.

Please do not lump everything together to support your hypothesis.

Again, you are entitled to your self conceptions or self delusions.

£Ĭ€ڰ SG

Strange isn't it? A country like Taiwan with half the value of GDP per capita as compared to Singapore, has a slightly higher average wage for it's workers.

I think you should visit taiwan personally to see the living standard of taiwanese and income gap before making further comments. As a singaporean, I think you should be thankful that next time your 16 years old daugther dont have to sell betel nuts to truck drivers wearing nothing but undewear.

maurizio13 SG

There is a book on this country in which the investment for Suzhou or Biopolis went awry.

They made alot of bad investment decisions, Global Crossing was the worst of the lot, I don't know how many billions they pump into this sinking company to keep it afloat.

Can't help it if the investment decisions is only made by one person from the top without heed of advice from experts, but anyway most of those working under him are just poodles fearing his wrath, so I would say they won't dare make alternative advice if big boss wants to plunge his money in these bad investments.

will4 SG

They made alot of bad investment decisions, Global Crossing was the worst of the lot, I don't know how many billions they pump into this sinking company to keep it afloat.

I think Shin Corp is the most pitiful matter. It has not been solved esp the present Thai govt is still afraid of the army.

crimsontactics SG

Strange isn't it? A country like Taiwan with half the value of GDP per capita as compared to Singapore, has a slightly higher average wage for it's workers.

Quite true, nothing much to be said about.

I think we are kindda off-topic, better get back to welfare and healthcare costs.

DeerHunter SG

Strange isn't it? A country like Taiwan with half the value of GDP per capita as compared to Singapore, has a slightly higher average wage for it's workers.

Again you attempt to mislead and cast aspersions on others without a single shred of evidence. WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!

They drive down the wages of below average income earners by increasing the supply of foreign talents. The lower wages increases the profitability of the company, which goes into paying off the stellar salaries of the CEO and higher management.

Without these experienced foreign talents or cheap foreign workers, companies would not even bother setting up operations here! For every few FT/FWs that get hire, it creates another post for our locals, if they are suitably trained for the job, whether U grads or blue collared supervisory ITE grads. And no one is denied the opportunity to upgrade, young or old. The govt even provide grants.

Companies profit - the country have more tax revenues. Higher management get more money - its how the world works too, not just singapore, in a drive to get the best to serve.

A good part of those high flying CEOs are relatives of the regime. Folks such as LHY sitting in comfy seats getting big fat salary, bonus and stock options.

What are you saying? What 'good part' are you refering to? Put down the numbers if you dare. Don't just smear and smear as you wish. Best not be so mudslingingly free. You will be challenged.

maurizio13 SG

I think Shin Corp is the most pitiful matter. It has not been solved esp the present Thai govt is still afraid of the army.

Yah. More uncertainty ahead. I read the investment that our gifted elite leaders plough into Merrill Lynch in December 2007, it's around 6 months and the share has dropped to $37.92. A lost of 21% of it's capital as our competent Temasek paid $48 for it. After Temasek paid $48 the price of this share has been below $48 for the major part of the 6 months to June 08.

That's what you get when you put folks who behave like Than Shwe on the top of these GICs, they have no experience handling investment decisions in capital markets. That's why they make major blunders all along the way.

will4 SG

I think UBS also plus 1000 locals gave up their citizenship each year n getting their CPF cash.

crimsontactics SG

You know maurizio, we had too many good years.

Atobe SG

It is amazing that LKY will criticise Warren Buffet, whose wealth that he manages is based on his own personal enterprise and keen business acumen, while the wealth that LKY manages is from the accumulated funds taxed from all who reside and transact their economic activities in Singapore.

One thing is for sure, the article - ’LKY ain’t no Warren Buffet’ - is surely accurate ?

One works for his own wealth, the other is supposed to manage the wealth for others.

£Ĭ€ڰ SG

I think UBS also plus 1000 locals gave up their citizenship each year n getting their CPF cash.

Is there any reason why you already like to talk about 1000 local giving up their citizenship on almost every thread?

Spartans SG

In my opinion, PAP government has being prudent in spending on welfare. Too much welfare will put an unbearable strain on the governmental budget.

On the other hand, the government has being way too stingy in helping the poor elderly and homeless. More can be done to help these groups of people who do not have the mean to look after themselves.

Recently, the government allowed a $40 increment in monthly allowance for the poor elderly from $250 to $290. However, people have being lobbying for $300 allowance for a long long time. How are the elderly going to survive based on this $290 when inflation is at an all time high?

crimsontactics SG

In my opinion, PAP government has being prudent in spending on welfare. Too much welfare will put an unbearable strain on the governmental budget.

On the other hand, the government has being way too stingy in helping the poor elderly and homeless. More can be done to help these groups of people who do not have the mean to look after themselves.

Well, quite true. But why hasn't the government been able to successfully control inflation rate? You have to ask that question 1st.

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