Naval accidents - Japan Defense Minister & Navy Chief sacked

last SG · 2008-06-05T09:47:53+00:00

That's the P4P trolls logic lor. By all means, make a quick exit. No need to embarass yourself further. BUT the record will show for all what you truly a...

Point_blank SG

I think it boils down to perimeters of responsibilties. In the case of a son growing up to be a murderer, the law held only the son to be resposible because the son is no longer under the responsibility of the parents. What the son does when he is a grown up is beyond the control of the parents. But then if the son, when he was still young, was left alone at home and he accidentally set the house on fire and killed himself, then the parents are responsible. Well, at least in countries like the US and Hong Kong, parental negligence is a crime, I am not sure about Singapore.

In the case of MSK, his escape was due to several failures or negligence in the system. Who is responsible in ensuring the system is running smoothly and ensuring officers in charge do not neglect their duties? Whose perimeter of responsible is this?

I agree with you -' it boils to responsiblities'. Thus 2 separate investigations were held. One by CID and another by an Independent Commission headed by respected members of our society and judiciary. Their results were made known, less national security issues, and punishments meted out to those held responsible to assure the public. Are we to dispute further such findings, to move on to secure up the place and intensify the search or continue on with non solving political sideshow upmanship?

purpledragon84 SG

So far, there we no cases of parents being 'hanged' for the crimes of sons. Thus our present society still upholds the societal rule of 'each being responsible for his/her own conduct as a rule.

not true.. parents will be dragged in in court cases.. eh no time for details now.. going home liao..

333225520 SG

So if ministers don't need to take up responsibilities, why are they paid so much for?

Point_blank SG

So if ministers don't need to take up responsibilities, why are they paid so much for?

There is no such thing as 'don't need to take up responsibilities'. Their responsibilities are higher, more so the People's expectations of each ministry.

If indeed they were found guilty or negligent by our independent commission, they would be sacked or asked to leave. But were they? None. Qualified and entrusted members were at fault. Would you recommend these operators continue in their jobs, getting their salaries, shaking their legs while our ministers get sacked?

Lin Yu SG

that's accountability

charlize SG

There is no such thing as 'don't need to take up responsibilities'. Their responsibilities are higher, more so the People's expectations of each ministry.

But you said in your first line here, and I quote : "There is no such thing as "don't need to take up responsibilities... "

So how?

2 laws for 2 different groups of people?

You are starting to trip up here.

Point_blank SG

not true.. parents will be dragged in in court cases.. eh no time for details now.. going home liao..

I agree with you that parents will be dragged into the court. Would be absolutely irresponsible if they don't attend. At times even get reprimanded by the judge, espacially for juveniles.

But had there been any case of a mother forced to 'resign' - give up her child for adoption, for the crimes of her child, or hanged for drugs sold by her son, young or old?

If this is the kind of society you and others want, it can happen. Laws were meant to be applicable to all, CEO or cleaner. Just follow the seduction clarion's call for 'change'.

purpledragon84 SG

I agree with you that parents will be dragged into the court. Would be absolutely irresponsible if they don't attend. At times even get reprimanded by the judge, espacially for juveniles.

But had there been any case of a mother forced to 'resign' - give up her child for adoption, for the crimes of her child, or hanged for drugs sold by her son, young or old?

If this is the kind of society you and others want, it can happen. Laws were meant to be applicable to all, CEO or cleaner. Just follow the seduction clarion's call for 'change'.

i say liao, i dunid the guy to resign, i say partial responsibility nia.. pay cut, or heck, even community service, why not.. forced to do something to return to the community..

for the harm and inconvenience such a mishap caused, surely the one in charge must step out and do something to make up for it?

Point_blank SG

But you said in your first line here, and I quote : "There is no such thing as "don't need to take up responsibilities... "

So how?

2 laws for 2 different groups of people?

You are starting to trip up here.

Trip up, or you choosed to be selective in your reply? Read this post again, then decide again, otherwise you will be deem as not following the thread.

But you said in your first line here, and I quote : "There is no such thing as "don't need to take up responsibilities... "

So how?

2 laws for 2 different groups of people?

You are starting to trip up here.

You failed to realize one critical error in the analogy you posted. Whether the junior's salary is S$2000, or US$100,000/mth or RMB$600/mth, was he QUALIFIED for the post?

1. If he was, thus he was entrusted with the millions to get the job right as is his job scope and responsibility. He then is accountable solely for the loss.

2. If he was not, just a clerk, then that responsibility lies with the manager. The manager oughtta be kicked out.

The keyword is - QUALIFICATION. It is only thru qualifications can one be entrusted to a position that entails specific duties. It had been the hallmark of our government of putting only qualified people for the job so as not to waste taxpayers money, and not just some Tom, dick and harry from the streets- simply to get the job done.

So much so till the People are complaining of Qualified FTs taking over our jobs. Now the govt is in a tight spot - Support unqualified local personal ahead and they get blame. Support qualified outsiders, they get blamed. Their solution now is to adopt flexible education style - selection of courses and upgrading of courses that best suit market opportunities in the next few years to help our locals.

Would you yourself hire a primary school educated man without even successful track management records to manage your financial wealth portfolios?

Would you put a taxi driver incharge of a ship if he was not trained for the job?

Most people are hire because they had been qualified for the job, and thus solely responsible for it. They cannot shirk that responsibility by pushing it upwards if management had already approved their appointments, not by fortune telling, but by paper qualifications.

Now that i had answer this on behalf of others, mau, perhaps you can answer to my simple query:-

Who should take the blame if a son commits murder, he or his father/mother/both in the name of accountability? Do understand your answer will reflect the kind of society you want and want others to live in.

Point_blank SG

i say liao, i dunid the guy to resign, i say partial responsibility nia.. pay cut, or heck, even community service, why not.. forced to do something to return to the community..

for the harm and inconvenience such a mishap caused, surely the one in charge must step out and do something to make up for it?

He already did. He apologised to the nation on behalf of his men, even though it was not his fault.

Just like a mother of a murderer would apologize to a victim's mother. It may not do anything to bring back the murdered victim, but the fault is acknowledged. Society accepts it. Unless you want to change society.

I understand some will not be satisfied, but for the greater good of society, should not we all moved on pragmatically, find Mas instead of bickering with one another on blamegames or be manipulated by others for political ends?

Point_blank SG

that's accountability

If that's what you mean by accountability, I hope you will never be in a position whereby you will scold our judges in court or worse, otherwise it may be your parents that go to jail for 12 days in the kind of society you are seeking.

purpledragon84 SG

He already did. He apologised to the nation on behalf of his men, even though it was not his fault.

no la.. wat i wanted, and perhaps others too, was something not only vocal.. but actions too.. but this debate shall stop here.. he did not kena, it's a fact, it's history, and no point wasting anymore time on this.. i go play game liao..

*unchecks "monitoring topic" checkbox*

maurizio13 SG

http://www.clevelandbanner.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=540F3840-19B9-E2E2-6732778ACD6FA23B

A Western Australian court has ordered the parents of two teenagers to pay compensation to the victims of their children's crimes.

The ruling is believed to be an Australian legal first.

The parents have been ordered to pay a total of $60,000 to the owners of two properties in Kalgoorlie-Boulder.

Their teenage sons set fire to the houses in June last year, causing about $400,000 in damage. One of the homes had to be demolished.

An application for compensation was initially rejected but after an appeal to the full court, the president of the Children's Court today ruled that the parents should pay a total of $60,000 to the owners and residents.

In his decision, Judge Denis Reynolds said the parents had generally been responsible in the years around the time of the arson attacks.

But he said they had failed to adequately supervise their children, who were using amphetamines and cannabis and drinking alcohol.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/07/09/1150374.htm

Parents should be made financially responsible for property crime committed by their children, Halifax council said, passing a motion urging the province to consider such a law.

Councillors want a law similar to one in British Columbia. Under the Parental Responsibility Act, parents can be required to pay for vandalism committed by young offenders, to a maximum of $10,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourview/2006/10/parents_should_pay_for_kids_cr.html

Nearly 130,000 juveniles were arrested for major violent crimes in 1992. Teenagers are now more likely to be victims of violent crime than adults over age twenty-five. Over the past fifteen years, use of guns by youthful offenders has increased by nearly 20 percent. Juvenile offenders are responsible for one-third of all reported property crimes. This strategy addresses the youth behaviors that lead to status offenses and property crimes by holding parents legally and financially accountable for their children's actions.

http://www.ncpc.org/topics/bullying/strategies/strategy-holding-parents-accountable-for-their-children-s-behavior

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

Anyone who suggest that the Chief of Navy had no part to play in the job fails to see that it is the Chief of Navy's duty to ensure that the force stay professional and to constantly review practices and ensure they are followed. Otherwise, the admiral isn't doing his bloody job, and he should be fired. The CINCPAC Admiral in the US navy also suffered for a string of problems involving US Navy warships in the Pacific. It is the duty of the navy admiral to ensure that his captains do their duty and if they don't, then something is wrong.

Any damn idiot who suggest otherwise is suggesting that the admiral of the fleet has no responsibility over his captains, and thus is absolved of any failings in the instruction of his men.

And someone apparently forgot, that within that same year, there was a collision between a navy vessel Endurance and a merchant ship. Yeah, same reason again; ensigns at the helm.

freedom4ever SG

1 question i think everyone will be able to judge for themselves.

IF the minister in charge of home affairs is an oppostion member instead of WKS, will he be sack or will he get protected by LHL?

Trump_Card SG

1 question i think everyone will be able to judge for themselves.

IF the minister in charge of home affairs is an oppostion member instead of WKS, will he be sack or will he get protected by LHL?

In Singapore , no opposition MP will be appointed as a minister one leh

freedom4ever SG

In Singapore , no opposition MP will be appointed as a minister one leh

that why my if is a very big if.

Point_blank SG

http://www.clevelandbanner.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=540F3840-19B9-E2E2-6732778ACD6FA23B

A Western Australian court has ordered the parents of two teenagers to pay compensation to the victims of their children's crimes.

The ruling is believed to be an Australian legal first.

The parents have been ordered to pay a total of $60,000 to the owners of two properties in Kalgoorlie-Boulder.

Their teenage sons set fire to the houses in June last year, causing about $400,000 in damage. One of the homes had to be demolished.

In his decision, Judge Denis Reynolds said the parents had generally been responsible in the years around the time of the arson attacks.

But he said they had failed to adequately supervise their children, who were using amphetamines and cannabis and drinking alcohol.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/07/09/1150374.htm

Parents should be made financially responsible for property crime committed by their children, Halifax council said, passing a motion urging the province to consider such a law.

Councillors want a law similar to one in British Columbia. Under the Parental Responsibility Act, parents can be required to pay for vandalism committed by young offenders, to a maximum of $10,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourview/2006/10/parents_should_pay_for_kids_cr.html

http://www.ncpc.org/topics/bullying/strategies/strategy-holding-parents-accountable-for-their-children-s-behavior

Thank you for your links. I already have heard of them. We have no need to 'ape' any country for each society is different and have different laws, from other nations, for their countrymen to suit their national needs. But the thing is, these are not related to current Singapore laws on juveniles or soon to be enacted laws. My question is:

Who should take the blame if a son commits murder, he or his father/mother/both in the name of accountability? Do understand your answer will reflect the kind of society you want and want others to live in.

maurizio13 SG

Any damn idiot who suggest otherwise is suggesting that the admiral of the fleet has no responsibility over his captains, and thus is absolved of any failings in the instruction of his men.

And someone apparently forgot, that within that same year, there was a collision between a navy vessel Endurance and a merchant ship. Yeah, same reason again; ensigns at the helm.

Lots of P4P fellatio artists here, some have refined the art of fellating to the epitome of suckers.

Like I said before, if a manager being paid $2 million a year entask his clerk to sell all the shares of a certain company, the clerk fail to perform the task, resulting in the company losing $1 billion.

Should the manager being paid $2 million be responsible or the $2,000 per month clerk be responsible?

Point_blank SG

Lots of P4P fellatio artists here, some have refined the art of fellating to the epitome of suckers.

Should the manager being paid $2 million be responsible or the $2,000 per month clerk be responsible?

If you have to resort to calling others as mentioned in your post with a rather vulgar 'PAP fellatio artists' perhaps you may just be a fellatio artist yourself or others can equally call you one?

I had the courtesy to reply to your question, answered by my post dated 5th june, 4.51pm, which is yesterday.

Yet you still refuse to answer mine. Why are you afraid to show your view or commit a stand? Are your fellatio types so fearful with your own self created fears?

Perhaps you truly are the fellating guy here, all talk and no balls?

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