it's okay, sometimes the forum goes conky when you try to edit
your previous posts .. 
But I assume your point is that there were
also Tibetans killed? Yes, that is true. SO? They were killed by
violent rioters, not peace-loving demonstrators. That is all the
point I was trying to make. That while those rioters were hacking
people,
I was referring to those pictures here ....
http://www.freetibet.org/press/kirtiphotos.html
ah ! .... so now these pictures show tibetans killed by Violent
Rioters ? .... damm ! ... hacked you said ? .... but those LITTLE
ROUND HOLES looked to be to be very much like BULLET WOUNDS ....
you think the tibetans are killing other tibetans now ? ... and are
arming themselves with firearms for an insurgency now ?
Was tat your final answer ? ... or are you going to tell me
these are actually dead chinese civilians next ? ... that they were
killed because they were violent demonstrators now ? ....
Did you type all this just to prove the point
that it is ok for Western media to lie and write misleading reports
because Chinese government was not forthcoming with news? And then
you stentorianly lecture in the following paragraphs that A’s
wrong-doing does not absolve B’s crime?
oh no ... I posted up some very uncomfortable observations
(understandably, for you), not to show you that " it's
okay for western media tolie and write misleading reports" but
to show you why people around the world are more prepared NOT to
believe in the Chinese version, simply because they didn't have a
very good track record at reporting the "truth" ... just like the
SARs crisis, only when people around the world started dying, did
the official stance started backpedalling ? .. or, if you prefer
not to remember the international food scares I Iisted above, do
you believe the recent spate of fake infant milk formula scandals
in china, only recently ? .... those were sold in
China itself mind you ... are you going to say "mei you !" too ?
... that the infants didn't die, .... I guess Tiananmen was still
an uncomfortable sore point for you chaps eh ? ... or the covered
up peasant riots in Guangdong and else where ? ....
So if it's hard for the foreign public to believe it when the
chinese goverment comes out and say that that the food exported is
safe, that there were no health epidemics, how would you expect
outsiders, the foreign public, to believe the official chinese line
about tibet ? ... after all, people remember the tanks against
students in Tiananmen ..... and all the more so when foreign
reporters and visitors are now being barred from Tibet ? ... I
remind you that there are no such bans in Iraq if you still want to
try to deflect and point fingers .....
Thus, you can thump your chest in indignation here all you want,
but how are people outside really going to connect the dot for
themselves ? ... so other than the people who would already be
predisposed to believe because of ethnic and nationalistic pride
..... how are people going to be expected to believe in the
official Chinese line in the light of these ? ...
You like to use the actions of the west for example, but the
fact remains that their version remains much more platable than the
Chinese press, like to remember Iraq ? ... Abu Gharib ? ...
Remember that it was the WESTERN PRESS that broke that story, it
was the WESTERN PRESS that kept up the attention on Guantanamo, it
was the WESTERN PRESS that reported all the abuses that came to
light in Iraq, to quote the sources listed by indignant people here
... Such Irony, isn't it ? .... The WESTERN PRESS had no qualms
about indicting their own goverment for perceived wrong doings, the
people here had no qualms about quoting them here, but when
negative reports on Tibet and China comes out, it all becomes a
western plot ? ... don't you think there's two standards being
adopted here ? ....
Now, I am not in
favor of using such simple metaphorical examples (criminals A and B
etc.) to illustrate something as complex as international politics
and power arm-twisting.
This is because
in international politics, there is no dedicated policeman to catch
criminals and definitely no judge to make an impartial
verdict.
And
international reality is based on interpretation and perception,
which in turn is decided by power relations.
no, of course you
wouldn't .. because you cannot provide a satisfactory answer to my
analogy, because you know it's no defense at all, in logic or in a
court, for a bully to point fingers at another bigger bully for the
crimes he commited ... so now it all becomes " POWER RELATIONS",
based on interpretation and peception, eh ? .... fudging and
avoiding the questions ? ... power relations ... something you
learnt in political education classes ? ... yes you're right,
there's no real (read: powerful enough) policeman to catch the
criminals, no court to pass judgement .... else I guess Tibet
would still be free ? ... so it all becomes a game of power
politics to you then ? .....
might .... is right ?
....
Since you say that
any debates like this should be an all encompassing discussion,
again, I invite you to read up on the "spratley islands" yet again
... because there are also issues of territorial ownership and
sovereignty involving China against different countries
around the region .... or you'd would still prefer NOT to commit to
an answer there too ? ... or isn't it really because I may hold it
up as an example of unilateral land grabbing by your goverment if
you affirm chinese ownersip, (just ike in Tibet) and pride
forbades you to say otherwise ? ... it's okay you know, while
both Tibet and the Spratleys have lots of oil, there are no natives
on the islands with charismatic religions leaders who may form a
"clique" in exile to continously embaress the your goverment or to
"instigate violence " there .....
<!--StartFragment-->
I
was referring to those pictures here ....
http://www.freetibet.org/press/kirtiphotos.html
ah
! .... so now these pictures show tibetans killed by Violent
Rioters ? .... damm ! ... hacked you said ? .... but those LITTLE
ROUND HOLES looked to be to be very much like BULLET WOUNDS ....
you think the tibetans are killing other tibetans now ? ... and are
arming themselves with firearms for an insurgency now
?
Was
tat your final answer ? ... or are you going to tell me these are
actually dead chinese civilians next ? ... that they were killed
because they were violent demonstrators now ?
....
I cannot believe
you are using sources from www.freetibet.org to make a point. It is
like using the Bible as evidence that God exists. Or citing from
opoch times to justify the Falungong’s claim that there is organ
harvesting of Falungong followers in China (which by the way, both
the Department of State of USA and overseas Chinese dissents have
discredited after their independent investigations). All of
which are unreliable because information stemming from an interest
group cannot be used as unbiased evidence to support the claims
made by this interest group. I am sure you know this point. Don’t
you. That is why you were taking another former to task when he was
citing from People’s Daily for a pro-China opinion. Better practice
what you preach…
“oh
no ... I posted up some very uncomfortable observations
(understandably, for you), not to show you that " it's okay
for western media tolie and write misleading reports" but to show
you why people around the world are more prepared NOT to believe in
the Chinese version, simply because they didn't have a very good
track record at reporting the "truth" ... just like the SARs
crisis, only when people around the world started dying, did the
official stance started backpedalling ? .. or, if you prefer not to
remember the international food scares I Iisted above, do you
believe the recent spate of fake infant milk formula scandals in
china, only recently ? .... those were sold in
China itself mind you ... are you going to say "mei you !" too ?
... that the infants didn't die, .... I guess Tiananmen was still
an uncomfortable sore point for you chaps eh ? ... or the covered
up peasant riots in Guangdong and else where ?
....
So
if it's hard for the foreign public to believe it when the chinese
goverment comes out and say that that the food exported is safe,
that there were no health epidemics, how would you expect
outsiders, the foreign public, to believe the official chinese line
about tibet ? ... after all, people remember the tanks against
students in Tiananmen ..... and all the more so when foreign
reporters and visitors are now being barred from Tibet ? ... I
remind you that there are no such bans in Iraq if you still want to
try to deflect and point fingers .....
Thus, you can thump your chest in indignation
here all you want, but how are people outside really going to
connect the dot for themselves ? ... so other than the people who
would already be predisposed to believe because of ethnic and
nationalistic pride ..... how are people going to be expected to
believe in the official Chinese line in the light of these ?
...”
You are either
totally missing the point or you are deliberately diverting the
issues here. I WAS NOT questioning about the CCP’s faults in the
SARS and Food and All. I WAS NOT! But you are so fond of
REGURGITATING all those examples again and again as if they provide
the ultimate answers to the questions that this thread intends to
inspire, apparently to make me "uncomfortable", as you put
it.
Listen to this:
I was not questioning the credibility of Western media’s reports
AGAINST THE CHINESE OFFICAL REPORT. Therefore, it is an irrelevant
question from you when you asked: “how are people going to be expected to believe
in the official Chinese line in the light of these
?”
Instead, I am
questioning their credibility for the following
reasons:
The Western
media were using completely unreliable sources, or worse,
deliberately modified pictures they had obtained or used totally
irrelevant pictures (from police brutality scenes in Nepal and
India) in their reports to mislead the audience into believing
that Chinese troops were crushing “peace-loving
protesters”.
Therefore, my
claim that the Western media is biased is advanced on the basis of
their OWN LEVEL OF PROFESSIONALISM AND ETHICS OR THE LACK
THEREOF, not against a Chinese standard official version of the
report. DO YOU GET THE LOGIC AND
REASONING?
Why must you
believe in me, you ask? Here, evidence from INTERNATIONAL SOURCES
OF INFORMATION, which you apparently have no problem believing in
at all:
As one article
from New American Media (http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=0db406a8bd056cbbd2119742f01dba4a),
an INTERNATIONAL source says:
“Mainstream media is quoting unverified or
unconfirmed casualty figures and showing inappropriately edited
photos. In one case, CNN cropped a photo that originally showed
Tibetans throwing stones at a Chinese military vehicle. By cutting
the right side where the Tibetan crowd is, the remaining part of
photo becomes a scene of the vehicle chasing running people. This
biased reporting was also caught by posters on Zuola.com, and it
angered Chinese cyber readers, effectively pouring oil on the
fire.”
Likewise, an
AMERICAN free-lancing reporter (http://kadfly.blogspot.com/) who
had first-hand witnessed the turmoil has the following to offer,
countering the completely inaccurate portrayal in main stream
media:
“I want
to make one thing clear because all of the major news outlets are
ignoring a very important fact. Yes, the Chinese government
bears a huge amount of blame for this situation. But the protests yesterday were NOT
peaceful. The original protests from the past few days may
have been, but all of the
eyewitnesses in this room agree the protesters yesterday went from
attacking Chinese police to attacking innocent people very, very
quickly. They appeared to target Muslim and Han Chinese individuals
and businesses first but many Tibetans were also caught in the
crossfire.
”
"You like to use the actions of the west for
example, but the fact remains that their version remains much more
platable than the Chinese press, like to remember Iraq ? ... Abu
Gharib ? ... Remember that it was the WESTERN PRESS that broke that
story, it was the WESTERN PRESS that kept up the attention on
Guantanamo, it was the WESTERN PRESS that reported all the abuses
that came to light in Iraq, to quote the sources listed by
indignant people here ... Such Irony, isn't it ? .... The WESTERN
PRESS had no qualms about indicting their own goverment for
perceived wrong doings, the people here had no qualms about quoting
them here"
Read my response
above. The points you raised above about Western media being more
reliable ARE NOT RELEVANT as I am NOT assessing them AGAINST
Chinese official media.
“but when negative reports on Tibet and China
comes out, it all becomes a western plot ? ... don't you think
there's two standards being adopted here ? ....”
Now listen to
this carefully: There is a difference between truthful negative
reports and UNTRUTHFUL negative reports. I am taking issue with the
UNTRUTHFUL negative reports here. Are you trying to justify the
UNTRUTHFUL reports? Is this logic CLEAR to
you?
“no, of course you wouldn't .. because you cannot
provide a satisfactory answer to my analogy, because you know it's
no defense at all, in logic or in a court, for a bully to point
fingers at another bigger bully for the crimes he commited ... so
now it all becomes " POWER RELATIONS", based on interpretation and
peception, eh ? .... fudging and avoiding the questions ? ... power
relations ... something you learnt in political education classes ?
... yes you're right, there's no real (read: powerful enough)
policeman to catch the criminals, no court to pass judgement ....
else I guess Tibet would still be free ? ... so it all
becomes a game of power politics to you then
?...”
Once again, you
are not listening. I do not have to answer your analogy because IT
IS AN INAPPROPRIATE ONE. You cannot compare apples and oranges.
International politics cannot be judged right or wrong in such a
simplistic manner. If you believe it is something other than power
relations and power struggles, then you are truly
misinformed.
And to answer
your question, "yes you're
right, there's no real (read: powerful enough) policeman to catch
the criminals, no court to pass judgement .... else I guess
Tibet would still be free ? "
Or else, there
would be no White people occupying North
America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand/South Africa. Or else there
would be no brutal oppression of Palestinians from the Israelis
with the connivance of the US government. Or else there would have
been no illegal invasion of Iraq and no threat of an Iran invasion.
Or else, the West would leave China's problem to the Chinese.The
list goes on and on. DO YOU GET THE
DRIFT??
