INTERVIEW
Anwar Ibrahim
Anwar to
Abdullah: It's nothing personal
By Ioannis Gatsiounis
KUALA LUMPUR - It has been a decade since Anwar Ibrahim has held
political office, and yet the opposition politician remains the
ruling government's biggest concern as Malaysia readies itself for
parliamentary elections. Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi called the
snap polls for March 8, a month before a politically motivated
corruption conviction which bars Anwar from politics officially
ends.
The former Islamic youth leader and deputy premier has since his
release from prison in 2004 refashioned his political image as a
pious crusader for social justice and racial equality. Although he
cannot run in the upcoming polls, he nonetheless is seen as the
unifying figure for a disparate group of opposition parties, which
include the Islamist party known as PAS, the Chinese-based and
secular Democratic Action Party (DAP) and his own multi-religious
and multiracial People's Justice Party (PKR).
Anwar's critics contend that he changes his tune depending on the
audience he is addressing - a charge the veteran politician denies.
Yet a poor showing by the opposition on Saturday may well force
Anwar to rethink his strategies - if not his political
future.
In a wide-ranging interview, Anwar addresses the many challenges
Malaysia faces and calls on the electorate to vote for change.
Asia Times Online: What do you see as
wrong with Malaysia?
Anwar Ibrahim: Now we're seeing more
anger. The Indians are enraged because of perceived discrimination
and demolition of temples. It's widespread throughout the country.
And among the Chinese there's a perception that the discriminatory
policies have gone a bit too far to enrich the few at their
expense.
So this is the basic problem. The government's failure, due to
incompetence and poor leadership, has affected them aversely. And
the state of our economy: we rely to a large extent on [foreign
direct investments] ... and we have lost that. We have lost our
competitiveness; we have lost out to our neighbors.
ATol: The Chinese and Indian communities
have voiced their frustration about a number of government
policies, but over the years most have continued to support the
Barisan Nasional-led ruling coalition. Do you foresee a change at
the upcoming polls?
AI: Well, I see change because I think
[the government has] crossed the line. For example, we have seen
the destruction of [Hindu] temples, the issue of permits, or
building bylaws. This is the first time we have seen a 100-year-old
temple demolished. Nothing has been done to address the legitimate
grievances of the Indian community: poverty, unemployment, housing,
crime.
And among the Chinese, when the economy becomes more sluggish, then
they of course will attach blame to poor governance and the
[affirmative action] New Economic Policy. And then how does the
government respond? Of course, brandishing the keris
[traditional Malay dagger] towards minority groups becomes very
symbolic. It's virtually a threat. They change the language ... of
instruction [to Malay] for math and science in Chinese
schools.
So I think unlike previous elections, the Chinese and the Indians
have virtually made a clear shift. Normally Malaysians maintain
their decorum and are quite polite. But now you see ministers going
and being booed, which is unheard of.
ATol: Why vote for your PKR party? What
can you and your party bring to the people that the BN [Barisan
Nasional] has not?
AI: First is the issue of governance. We
have made it very clear that constitutional guarantees must be
protected, which means we respect the Malay majority [and] Islam as
the religion of the federation. But the constitution also
guarantees freedom of conscience, religion and expression. The
rights of non-Malays in terms of language and culture must be
respected.
Second and very critical is our Malaysia Economic Agenda. We've
crafted our agenda in a way that will make us more competitive and
attract investment - but not at the expense of the Malay community.
Even in areas where you need to have affirmative action, it will
not be based on race: affirmative action for the marginalized, for
the poor irrespective of race.
ATol: There is a great deal of
indignation among the Chinese, having been victim to discriminatory
policies for so long. Isn't there a legitimate fear among Malays
that if you scrap the New Economic Policy, the Chinese would pursue
their personal and community interests at the expense of the
Malays?
AI: There is, I agree. I have crafted the
Malaysian Economic Agenda for more than a year now. There is no
free media. So therefore we have to publish half a million
pamphlets so people can understand. It will not be at the expense
of the Malays, because it is affirmative action to protect the
interest of the majority of the poor and marginalized, which means
you do away with the 30% [ethnic Malay ownership] control
[requirement for local] companies. We would take RM10 billion
[US$3.1 billion] for quality education, so the majority of the
funds would still go to the Malays.
ATol: But what is it about the policy
that guarantees protection for the Malays?
AI: If I have 10 billion ringgit to spend
for education or whatever, do I then give contracts or construction
away to 20 Malay families? Or do I allocate these resources to all
poor Malaysians, irrespective of race? Now, 80% of [state] funds go
to [only] a million Malays.
But then the funds will also be able to be absorbed by the Chinese
and Indians - the deserving ones. And the Malays would actually
benefit more than they do now. But there has been incessant
propaganda for the last three decades that our [Malay] survival
would depend only on the New Economic Policy.
ATol: What is the party, and more broadly
the opposition, doing differently this time around from the 2004
elections? What lessons have been learned and how have you
re-tooled and re-strategized?
AI: One is to work together; one
opposition candidate versus the BN. Second is to address issues
clearly to the public. We can talk about independent judiciary,
free media, freedom of conscience, constitutional guarantees. But
you have to articulate these issues in clear terms.
ATol: But in the past the opposition has
raised these issues without sufficiently articulating the
consequences. Are the consequences being articulated? In other
words I could say the BN is corrupt but unless you're conveying to
the people the consequences of that corruption, the message runs
the risk of getting lost.
AI: That's right. When our speakers talk
they must not just talk about an independent judiciary. You talk
about how corruption has led to cases being determined at the
expense of the people ... which means the poor suffer. Or, on the
issue of price increases, why is it that Malaysia is the [world's]
largest producer of oil palm and still [there isn't] enough in
their supermarkets? Is it because you protect the cartels? You
don't even allocate 2% to benefit the poor. So you have to
articulate it in a way people can understand.
ATol: Some people have charged that
you're not a genuine reformer. How has your time in the political
wilderness changed you?
AI: Well, of course, it's a time to
meditate and reflect and read. But for me it should be done from
our programs and actions ... Because I think that even in my time
in government, you talk about public housing programs, you talk
about toll increases - I could defend my record ... Why is it when
I go to the low-cost housing areas like Kampong Kerinchi I have
huge support? They know that I was the last bastion for effective
programs by the government for the poor when I was minister.
ATol: How have you changed your ideas
about governing and the direction of the country since you were
last in office?
AI: Well, I think you mature. And I think
globalization and the changing environment would dictate - demand -
that you also adapt accordingly. Your understanding of the policies
or the economy, your assumptions that you can decouple easily,
knowing that it's not realistic.
Okay, I'm very passionate about working with and helping the poor.
[But] you realize that without growth and competitiveness, you will
not have the resources, which means you have to have a
market-friendly economy and other things - reforms - before you can
assist and elevate the living conditions of the poor ... I think
[the government] has failed on both counts, attempting to propel
the economy but ignoring the plight of the poor.
ATol: You are now articulating a much
more democratic agenda than what you did when you were in the
United Malays Nasional Organization (UMNO)-led government. Did you
have some epiphany that democratic principles are important for
development?
AI: Of course you can articulate your
position more freely now. But if you look at my position - freedom
of democracy and empowerment and support for an independent
judiciary are there. So I don't think it's quite correct to suggest
that these are only thoughts [I'm having] now. But then you
articulate, you craft in a different manner, because of the
constraints of the media.
ATol: A letter writer to a politics and
culture website recently commented that your "faction within UMNO
was remembered [even] by UMNO members as one of the most aggressive
... and deeply feared". How do you respond?
AI: Aggressive, yes. We were looking to
achieve reform. For instance, I introduced this anti-corruption
bill. It was immensely unpopular among the UMNO leaders. Not [just]
UMNO supporters, but ministers for that matter ... I looked at the
Hong Kong Independent Commission Against Corruption. There's a
provision that if you are deemed to be corrupt even after 10 years
in office - that you benefited while you were in power - they can
go after you. That provision was strongly opposed to.
ATol: I think, though, what the letter
writer meant by "aggressive" was intimidating.
AI: That's the first time I'm hearing
this. I was [part of] the more liberal wing of the government. It's
quite known. For example, I engaged the Bar Council at the time
[former premier] Mahathir [Mohamad] was fighting [them]. When there
was a huge protest over the Baku dam, I allowed them to come in and
discussed it with them. When the draft bill was tabled in cabinet,
I faxed the draft to the opposition leader the moment I got it,
which had never happened in the past.
ATol: Some people say Islam has begun to
play too central a role in Malaysian life. Do you agree and what
would you do to revise matters?
AI: It depends on how you perceive this.
The super-liberal wing of the public would want to have nothing to
do with Islam. And you have an extremely conservative wing that
wants to dictate. So I don't share either view. But then we have to
sort it out.
You have to engage them, allow them to articulate their views. So I
think for a person to suggest in Malaysia - to deny the role of
religion and Islam - I don't share that view. Where I think we draw
the line is when it comes to compelling people, or not allowing
non-Muslims to use the civil courts. That's unheard of in our 50
years.
ATol: Obviously there is increased
tension between the races with religion playing a part. What as a
leader would you do to defuse the situation?
AI: I am opposed if a group for example
wants to compel others to Islam, [or] if you apostatize you should
be shot. And the other view says religion should have no role
whatsoever; we should do away with the religious court. I also
disagree with that. I think the consensus among Muslims is that the
sharia court should be confined to Muslim personal law and Muslim
affairs.
The problem is when you use this legislation to compel ... to deny
non-Muslims to bring their cases to the civil courts, because
finally the issue of faith is a personal issue. I am a Muslim. I
believe in Islam. I don't rejoice in hearing that people are
leaving Islam, but I think finally it is his or her personal
decision. It is beyond me and I don't think we should politicize
that further.
ATol: The prime minister's son-in-law and
UMNO deputy youth chief Khairy Jamaluddin recently branded you as
an agent of the Jews and the United States. There are reportedly
pictures of you and [former US deputy defense secretary] Paul
Wolfowitz being disseminated in the villages. Could this be
damaging to you politically?
AI: It could. But look ... I say yes, I'm
a friend of the Jews. I am a friend of the Chinese, a friend of the
Muslims. Where is the problem? The Iraq war - I am against it.
There are many Americans, including Jews, who are against the Iraq
war.
ATol: But anti-Semitism and
anti-Americanism run deep in Malaysia. It's maybe not as vocal as
in some other places, but there is a great deal of ignorance and
fear. And UMNO has the machinery to fan the flames. What are you
doing to combat it?
AI: It does [run deep], it's ignorance,
and it's been [reinforced] by leaders. Mahathir did it ... and this
is dangerous. I did address [the allegations], but in the last few
months I have not because I asked some religious leaders and they
said [only] a small number of people are being influenced by this
and they said I don't need to respond. So I have moved on ... We
are taking a civil suit against Khairy on that allegation.
ATol: Some people say you haven't been
very critical of the prime minister. This has led to speculation
that you may one day attempt to rejoin UMNO. Why haven't you been
more critical?
AI: I have nothing personal against
him.
ATol: But this is the election season.
Don't you need to use everything within the capacity of the law at
this point to end the BN's two-thirds parliamentary majority?
AI: If I have evidence, I present it. But
with Abdullah there is incompetence ... He gives a multi-billion
ringgit contract to his son to build a monorail in Penang without
tender. He gives a 25 billion ringgit development approval for
Patrick Lim, his crony in Penang. These things are being
said.
But to make personal attacks, I refuse. But it's wrong for them to
say I haven't been critical. You say the leadership is incompetent,
you say that under Abdullah we have been less competitive
economically, that corruption has become more endemic, crime rates
have increased - all under Abdullah. I have done that, made major
criticisms of him. But to go [down the road of personal attacks],
well [Abdullah] sleeps all the time, why is he married to this [new
foreign wife] Jeanne? I don't go there.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JC07Ae01.html
Anwar Ibrahim
http://www.anwaribrahim.com/inner.asp
Anwar himself was a party to all these cronyism and malfeasance
when he was in power.