What should be the minimum annual wages for Singaporeans?

last SG · 2008-04-19T10:53:12+00:00

Yah lah..blame all on being spendthrift issit ? You think the poor dunno how to save ah ? Can they save in the mids of all these crazy inflation anot ? No n...

jojobeach SG

Nope. But it depends on your trade to GDP ratio.

S'pore's is 3:1. So how will increased wages lead to inflation?

We are not talking about increasing wages.. we are talking about making sure the wage don't get more depressed than it already is due to influx of FTs.

marcolow SG

By not having minimum wages, Singapore remains competitive against other developed countries which do, such as France and New Zealand.

Nevertheless, I'm sure that this will one day become an opposition party's electoral promise.

jojobeach SG

That's why I mentioned it would lead to job shortages.

A minimum wage distorts the market. It does not reflect the pay everyone agrees upon and if set below this pay, why set it all?

You know what is minimum wage anot huh ?

jojobeach SG

In general, the work attitude and skill sets of Singaporeans and

By not having minimum wages, Singapore remains competitive

Yes... Singapore remains competitive.. but Singaporean's are suffering.

Eddie Lee SG

Some of your employess will always be less productive than others.

I had planned on only firing two people. But by sacking the third person I was able to give raises to my better employees.

16/f/lonely SG

You know what is minimum wage anot huh ?

Do YOU?

Haha......so many economies have repeatedly shown that a minimum wage hurts more in the long run.

A market exists because there's demand and supply. The pay exists because it is agreed implicitly upon by employees and employers.

You're essentially removing that equation by introducing such a law.

Employees get higher pay and would agree, but employers would not. So, they will fire workers and reduce demand for workers. Yet, the supply for workers who agree to this new pay will not fall, in fact, they would rise! So you get job shortage, and a resulting lower productivity in return for this so called welfare.

The consequences will only show in the long-term.

kilua SG

Some of your employess will always be less productive than others.

I had planned on only firing two people. But by sacking the third person I was able to give raises to my better employees.

Why didnt you fire them before the minimum wage raise? If they are less productive and you can cope with lesser, you should have done it and earn more profits.

Eddie Lee SG

When wages are artificially increased companies usually just pass those costs to their costumers. So even though unskilled workers may be making a little more money. That money is worth a little less.

kilua SG

Do YOU?

Haha......so many economies have repeatedly shown that a minimum wage hurts more in the long run.

A market exists because there's demand and supply. The pay exists because it is agreed implicitly upon by employees and employers.

You're essentially removing that equation by introducing such a law.

The consequences will only show in the long-term.

So minimum wage set at any level would hurt the economy in the long run? even if its $1? $ 2.50? how about $4? any difference?

Eddie Lee SG

Hi Kilua

I didn't fire them sooner because the owner had set guidelines on how many employees she wanted to work on each shift. When the minimum wage was increased I was able to convince her to allow me to get rid of some of the dead weight. And to reward the people that were hard workers.

There were also a lot of adjustments that I had to make to keep the restaurant running smoothly. It is always harder to keep your customers happy with less employess.

16/f/lonely SG

So minimum wage set at any level would hurt the economy in the long run? even if its $1? $ 2.50? how about $4? any difference?

Like I said, if you set a minimum wage below the current one, might as well not have one at all?

It is not worth the admin work needed to enforce it.

And yes, the extra $$ needed to enforce this is another disadvantage.

16/f/lonely SG

Many people forget the most fundumental characteristic of a market: The implicit agreement between the employer and employee. This is a form of the 'invisible hand'.

So if you guys push for a minimum wage in the name of welfare, then you guys are also forgetting that personal choices will be at stake since people CHOSE to work despite the low wages.

Instead of minimum wages, we should push for more accessible education and training, meaning subsidising and creating more job fairs and so on to lift these people from the low-paying job.

When they move on to a higher-paid one, the low-paid one will experience a reduction on workers and the pay will naturally go up there.

Of course this leads to another problem because all these assumes a closed-market context. In actual fact, the increase in pay would simply entice foreign workers and depress the pay again.

jojobeach SG

Do YOU?

Haha......so many economies have repeatedly shown that a minimum wage hurts more in the long run.

A market exists because there's demand and supply. The pay exists because it is agreed implicitly upon by employees and employers.

You're essentially removing that equation by introducing such a law.

The consequences will only show in the long-term.

Yes true.. demand and supply.

You also know why sweat shops exists ?. Yes got demand got supply lor. But is that the right thing to do ?

Have you been to Vietnam ? or India ? and see how people are scraping by with meagre income ?.. Demand and supply.... it works.

You student ? Or working ? Singaporean or Foreign talent ?

gasband SG

The question being asked is that the current minimum wages or the current level of wages are not enough to meet the standard living here.

Will raising the wages help? What do you think caused our living standards to be that high in the first place? It is us. The very people who are complaining that wages are low.

Living Standards are a vicious cycle. The biggest reasons for raise of living standards are when people spend and spend and then expect more. How do they spend and expect more? When they have more money.

I saw somewhere in the thread that by raising minimum wages, we will see that people will spend their wages to reduce the debt rather than spend more. I guess you are terribly wrong. Guess whats the reason behind the huge number of people reported to be "CARD SLAVES". People who spend more than they should using their credit cards not on paying their debts but for so called their "living standards". As a result they have to declare bankruptcy.

There is already a wage guidelines out there. Like it or not, this is a competitive society. I am a graduate who has a great job in junior management. My pay is not too bad but there are others who are same age as me earning more, driving bigger cars, going to more expensive places. Do I yearn to be like them? I will strive but I dun envy them. At the end of the day, its about being ambitious but yet being contented. And if you want something, go out there and fight for it.

Surely you do not expect to go fishing and expect the fish to queue up and let you fish them. You are expected to fight for it and you will expect the fish to struggle and fight to their death. Its the same and the reality of this society.

jojobeach SG

The question being asked is that the current minimum wages or the current level of wages are not enough to meet the standard living here.

Will raising the wages help? What do you think caused our living standards to be that high in the first place? It is us. The very people who are complaining that wages are low.

Junior management is which industry ? And if a foreigner is to come to your boss and tell him he is interested in your job at a 40% discounted pay arn't you essentially screwed ?

We are talking about putting a minimum wage to stop wage depression due to foreign influx. You are talking about our spending pattern ???????/

16/f/lonely SG

Yes true.. demand and supply.

You also know why sweat shops exists ?. Yes got demand got supply lor. But is that the right thing to do ?

Have you been to Vietnam ? or India ? and see how people are scraping by with meagre income ?.. Demand and supply.... it works.

You student ? Or working ? Singaporean or Foreign talent ?

THAT argument has been wrung for very long.....it is not to say that such places are great places to work.

But you clearly forgot that these people made the CHOICE. And you, like all those sceptics chose to ignore this very very important point.

Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?

Hence, I just trotted out a solution called reformative training. Unfortunately this is not a popular choice as most govts only choose to see themselves re-elected in the short-run, while this is a long-term solution. The short-term soltuion is of course to impose minimum wages which simply blinds you guys.

jojobeach SG

THAT argument has been wrung for very long.....it is not to say that such places are great places to work.

But you clearly forgot that these people made the CHOICE. And you, like all those sceptics chose to ignore this very very important point.

Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?

"Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?"

You call that CHOICE ?. Please lah. TAT IS NO CHOICE !!!!

And you think we don;t have reformative training ? WE DO. It's call " LEARN untill you DIE" ok ?

But after reformative training.. a FT comes to the boss and say.. I work for you for half the price of this reformed chap.. and the FT walks away with the job.. TAT is call DEMAND AND SUPPLY.

gasband SG

Junior management is which industry ? And if a foreigner is to come to your boss and tell him he is interested in your job at a 40% discounted pay arn't you essentially screwed ?

We are talking about putting a minimum wage to stop wage depression due to foreign influx. You are talking about our spending pattern ???????/

I am in the Lighting Industry. Maybe I am confident. But if someone foreign can come over and tell my boss and show to my boss that he is as capable as me in my job and can still take a lower pay, my boss has every right to replace me. I say that this is society and I myself would not expect that everything is given to me on a platter and not fight for it.

I talked about spending pattern because someone earlier in the thread mentioned that by increasing wages, it would not affect inflation BECAUSE people will spend their extra money to reduce debts rather than spend. So I am just explaining that this observation is incorrect.

Cheers!

marcolow SG

Yes... Singapore remains competitive.. but Singaporean's are suffering.

Actually, it's a gamble in a way.

By giving companies the flexibility to determine their own wages (which almost always translates to low wages), our people will be sandwiched by this so-called competitive pay and the rising cost of living.

However, if the government legislates a minimum wage system, MNCs will shift their operations elsewhere while SMEs may just close down, which will lead to massive unemployment. When that results, salary amounts become totally irrelevant.

jojobeach SG

Cheers!

Yes it will affect inflation. But if you increase wage and the inflation increase.. it's a balancing act. Both arrow going up.

But currently in Singapore.. we have a depressing wage and a inflation.. what does it equates to ?...One arrow going down , another going up.

Yes you are confident and you probably think you deserved to be fired. But if you go around to 50 companies after you got fired and everyone tells you .. You have to take a job at 50% less than your first job... can you take it ???

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