Can it be considered an Employment malpractice?

balance_else_complacent SG

Hi,

If a company hires 90% foreigners and 10% or less locals for jobs like IT, employing something like 100 IT people or more?

IT jobs are not like a rocket science.

would it be an employment malpractice?

what do you think?

jojobeach SG

USA implements the H1B visa.

Read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

"The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is responsible for ensuring that foreign workers do not displace or adversely affect wages or working conditions of U.S. workers."

What is our MOM doing ? The opposite.

And , when Singapore is giving out PR like nobody's business.. then what's the use of ANY Limited worker's visa ????

Also. the Gahmen should consider making it compulsory for male FT to complete Community Services thats equivalent in duration as male Singaporean going for reservist PER YEAR.

That way, they are also contributing to Singapore's well being while enjoying the perks they are getting in SG.

eagle SG

Hi,

If a company hires 90% foreigners and 10% or less locals for jobs like IT, employing something like 100 IT people or more?

IT jobs are not like a rocket science.

would it be an employment malpractice?

what do you think?

What if the company shifts its operations to India? So 90% of the total staff employed Indians in India, and for the 10% left in Singapore to do the admin things, 70% are locals?

IT is something that can be transmitted over countries within extremely short periods of time. We are living in the Information Age, mind you. If they don't set up shop here, they can easily set up a small admin base here and the programming department elsewhere, then communicate purely by email or ftp, etc. Even teleconferencing is very cheap now with the extremely wide usage of broadband.

jojobeach SG

What if the company shifts its operations to India? So 90% of the total staff employed Indians in India, and for the 10% left in Singapore to do the admin things, 70% are locals?

Obviously ... Eagle, you've never been to India.

I suggest you go visit that place first.. before you decide.. if your points are valid.

balance_else_complacent SG

indeed, eagle’s profile is very clear.
he is white.

but at times, he tries to appear black. like black sunday. he failed to penetrate into the minds of the learned and wise and worldly. frogs in well are not spared, however.

he has not been to india indeed.
he thinks india is now still the old india. or is he countering for the sake of doing his rewarding job?

in short, USA has protection for its citizen salaries.
i see that europe also the same.
For example, its common knowledge that an European IT staff working in Europe is paid so much that it covers their tax, living expenses and still have ample to enjoy.

if indeed the pore is not doing the same, and let the lowest and best deal win the job, i think while the cost of living will certainly go up from current very high level, the wages will depend on the influx of foreign IT staff. For example, from india, indonesia and filipines. As we know, due to their much poorer economy, their currency is not as strong.
The good ones went to USA and Australia etc. The in between ones or lower calibre goes to certain asian cities. lowering the salary in the market and also due to the large numbers of influx.

so they naturally will come here given the ease of entry.

based on my numerous years of observation and experience, its common to see 90:10 ratio of foreign:local IT departments.

while some race used to complain that companies here are biased to hiring mostly chinese, now, should the same kind of concern apply for current 9:1 ratio problem?

According to eagle , he uses the excuse that if you doon allow them, the companies go abroad and all die. I disagree. Europe. take a look at Europe. Their IT staff are majority Europeans. All paid highly. Why ? according to eagle’s biased logic of whitism, all european countries should have sacked all their expensive european IT staff and replaced by cheap FTs like poreans or indians. euro is king. so eagle, what is your mudder of all reasons and excuse to counter my statement?

The european union is strong and protects its members. Look at european standard, so high. Their high pay gives high standard.

Why european companies dont close shop and migrate to the pore? u watching too much knn or did you diy too much?

you are so super duper mudder of all bias dressed in sheeps skin.

eagle SG

Obviously ... Eagle, you've never been to India.

I suggest you go visit that place first.. before you decide.. if your points are valid.

Isn't it obvious that it is raised as an example. You could choose any other country to move such a business to, except Singapore.

Anyway, you should have heard of IIT in India I presume. In addition, India's IT sector accounts for 4% of its GDP in 2006, when the sector employs only 0.1% of the population

eagle SG

indeed, eagle’s profile is very clear.
he is white.

but at times, he tries to appear black. like black sunday. he failed to penetrate into the minds of the learned and wise and worldly. frogs in well are not spared, however.

he has not been to india indeed.
he thinks india is now still the old india. or is he countering for the sake of doing his rewarding job?

so they naturally will come here given the ease of entry.

based on my numerous years of observation and experience, its common to see 90:10 ratio of foreign:local IT departments.

while some race used to complain that companies here are biased to hiring mostly chinese, now, should the same kind of concern apply for current 9:1 ratio problem?

The european union is strong and protects its members. Look at european standard, so high. Their high pay gives high standard.

Why european companies dont close shop and migrate to the pore? u watching too much knn or did you diy too much?

you are so super duper mudder of all bias dressed in sheeps skin.

Obviously you could not totally comprehend my post.

You yourself has already explained the situation:

so they naturally will come here given the ease of entry.

Also, kindly point out which large IT company in EU or America does not have companies and businesses in other countries. They are still using foreign talent, not in their own country, but in other countries.

My question again, if you still do not understand, is if we offer the same protection as what you said EU and America do, do you think IT companies already employing a lot of foreign staff will not shift to other countries like what these EU or American companies do? And in so doing, would the number of jobs in Singapore be reduced?

Do you think seriously think such companies (if there are as many as you said) will not move their operations elsewhere, while retaining a base here?

HyperFocal SG

USA implements the H1B visa.

Read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

"The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is responsible for ensuring that foreign workers do not displace or adversely affect wages or working conditions of U.S. workers."

What is our MOM doing ? The opposite.

And , when Singapore is giving out PR like nobody's business.. then what's the use of ANY Limited worker's visa ????

Also. the Gahmen should consider making it compulsory for male FT to complete Community Services thats equivalent in duration as male Singaporean going for reservist PER YEAR.

That way, they are also contributing to Singapore's well being while enjoying the perks they are getting in SG.

... you must understand and accept the fact that, the government's mechanics are there NOT for us...

... but for themselves...

jojobeach SG

Isn't it obvious that it is raised as an example. You could choose any other country to move such a business to, except Singapore.

Anyway, you should have heard of IIT in India I presume. In addition, India's IT sector accounts for 4% of its GDP in 2006, when the sector employs only 0.1% of the population

You know... I'd love to see you post this same post after you've graduated and been in the work force for 5-10 years (in the private sector).

When reality bites.. you will be the one shouting DOWN WITH PAP !!!

jojobeach SG

... you must understand and accept the fact that, the government's mechanics are there NOT for us...

... but for themselves...

I can understand the gahmen is for themselves. But solli .. I cannot accept the fact that they should remain in power.

eagle SG

You know... I'd love to see you post this same post after you've graduated and been in the work force for 5-10 years (in the private sector).

When reality bites.. you will be the one shouting DOWN WITH PAP !!!

You are misunderstanding me I guess. I'm not saying I support it or whatsoever; I'm merely listing down the facts. Singapore's economy is just too dependent on MNCs and foreigners that any protection measures just for Singaporean citizens alone will likely have a very great effect on the economy. Anyway, if I have a choice, and I will certainly work towards this choice, I will most likely not be working for any employers after that 5-10 years. Why stay so bothered in a place with so many FWs, and as you said, complain against them and shouting DOWN WITH PAP? Plain stupid to stay in this kind of environment perpetually isn't it? I won't want to be like most Singaporeans here who only complain and do nothing to improve their own situation.

Again, as soul_rage has put it. I support the FT policy, but I don't support how the PAP handles it.

jojobeach SG

Again, as soul_rage has put it. I support the FT policy, but I don't support how the PAP handles it.

Yes, economy.. economy... in the end.. the people suffers for the economy.

How much more successful must Singapore become ? How much more sacrifices must her people endure ?

eagle SG

Yes, economy.. economy... in the end.. the people suffers for the economy.

How much more successful must Singapore become ? How much more sacrifices must her people endure ?

As you state. Singapore can be successful, but it doesn't mean each and every individual is successful

That's why I don't want to be part of those sacrificial people for long. Merely complaining and doing nothing much about it but only wait, will never set you apart

balance_else_complacent SG

Obviously you could not totally comprehend my post.

You yourself has already explained the situation:

Do you think seriously think such companies (if there are as many as you said) will not move their operations elsewhere, while retaining a base here?

everyone is using ft. As I said before and you seems to incapable of comprehending, it is the ratio and numbers that is the question.

on this tiny little plot of land, a country formed merely with 1 small tiny city, the job market is small. Why is there a need for so many FT in IT such that 9:1 is what i have always been seeing?

you still have failed to reply me, why this situation is not the same in Europe.

If you really need 9:1, why europe and japan do not have this kind of problem where 9:1 foreigners outnumber locals?

u indeed may be just an unexperienced student full of theories.

i dare u take the challenge to work in IT in the pore. don't go out. try it and best, you be a programmer. I would really bless you if you take this challenge. if only u dare.

europe, japan, pore, 1st worlds.

why so different?

why 1st world at asian salary?

why world record holders of golden peanuts?

the fact remains : Europe, no matter how they expand overseas, locally, in europe, their unions is able to protect their ricebowls. period.

balance_else_complacent SG

hi forummers,

yesterdays' news reported x number of jobs created.

Again , I do not see figures about jobs created for poreans.

there can be a difference between creating jobs and creating jobs for poreans.

by creating jobs itself, it can technically mean:

1. jobs for anyone.

2. jobs for wp holders.

3. jobs for sp holders.

4. jobs for ep holders.

5. jobs for PRs.

6. jobs for citizens.

so many categories all lumped into 1?

is anyone able to clarify on this?

well, from what i have been seeing, if its jobs created includes jobs of the 9:1, then, 9:1 IT jobs went to non citizens is it for this case?

IT is no rocket science. its just a 1 week course away for those interested. they can learn it in 1 week as beginner.

the problem is locals even having degrees, may not work in IT due to:

1. job ads never hire fresh people. there is oversupply from abroad. always min 2 years experience.

2. its common to find IT managers who are FTs. Their whole department majorly are FTs. They hire their own kinds too. Its common practice.

I dare to say eagle is living in false believe insisting that IT depts in pore are not majorly foreigners and this includes PRs. I let the facts speak for themselves. This kid is so active here I wonder how can a student know anything about real working life? I wonder does he wear white undersweres.

eagle SG

everyone is using ft. As I said before and you seems to incapable of comprehending, it is the ratio and numbers that is the question.

on this tiny little plot of land, a country formed merely with 1 small tiny city, the job market is small. Why is there a need for so many FT in IT such that 9:1 is what i have always been seeing?

you still have failed to reply me, why this situation is not the same in Europe.

If you really need 9:1, why europe and japan do not have this kind of problem where 9:1 foreigners outnumber locals?

u indeed may be just an unexperienced student full of theories.

i dare u take the challenge to work in IT in the pore. don't go out. try it and best, you be a programmer. I would really bless you if you take this challenge. if only u dare.

europe, japan, pore, 1st worlds.

why so different?

why 1st world at asian salary?

why world record holders of golden peanuts?

the fact remains : Europe, no matter how they expand overseas, locally, in europe, their unions is able to protect their ricebowls. period.

Seems like when you decide to post your same question in two threads, you don't bother to follow both threads.

For your convenience, posted at 2.55pm for your 4.39pm question

you did not reply to why european companies do not move out of europe when their IT salary is so high. they Expand overseas. but they do not migrate.

thus your logic that if IT department don't hire FT , companies will exit the pore is 1-sided.

its the sales and not the IT department, get it?

when u have 9:1 IT dept comprised of mostly Foreigners, u end up lowering the salary. is this an employment malpractice? employing true rare talents is reasonable. but employing non-talents takes away rice bowl from locals who are the ones who can sacrifice and defend the nation. the issue here is , is there an oversupply? lowering the cost ? why europe do not lower their citizen salary ? 1st worlds. highly expensive living. some more low low quality of life.

why europe companies do not crash with high IT cost?

reply directly if u are capable.

You explained it yourself

they Expand overseas

Tell me why don't they expand within their own countries? Any reason? There are still quite a number of jobless people in the EU you know? They can always not expand overseas, but within the EU and employ more people. But why not?

And don't need to work in IT. Already in engineering, you will see a lot of FWs. It is plain stupid to work in IT if I'm not trained in it. In addition, supposed you work in IT, and you are so unhappy with it, it would make perfect sense to switch.

Let me just post you another question. Other than complaining, what have you done or what are you planning to do when you are so unhappy with the fact that there are many many FWs in your workplace? Just wait and hope something happens? Or just wait every 5 years for a election to cast your vote to an opposition who hasn't spoken strongly against foreign workers?

I know you are unhappy. Many people are unhappy. But are you really willing to just stop at being unhappy and wait for something to happen?

qlqq9 SG

I believe the MOM has set quota and guide for such employment.

qlqq9 SG

Sometimes hiring more foreigners than locals can be an obstacle. For eg, the consultation co I once worked, hired about 50% or more staff from china as engineers. When there is govt tender, boss told me they are not qualified to go for the tender as the company hired china staff.

balance_else_complacent SG

thus the question,

does poreans understand how many locals get the jobs created when it is reported? it is almost always reported in such a way that only the total number of jobs created in the pore is reported without the information as to how many locals benefited from it.

I would be keen to see an official report on how many IT jobs created go to locals for the last 5 years.

you may be shocked.

due to the influx and oversupply and agents making use of the policy, there is no hiring of inexperienced IT staff who are locals.

IT is one of the easiest to break into basically , low barrier to entry - simple 1 week course qualifies a IT savvy person with interest in it to learn some programming.

The influx leads to no need to hire fresh ones.

when this is the case, locals who want to do IT will not have a easy time. This vicious cycle results in more and more influx.

90:10.

why was it said by some that at one time, the worse results ones are posted to study IT? 'dumping' ground?

locals may become extinct in time for IT industry if this trend continues.

IT can generate many jobs. But with many using the policy to their advantage, has led to many jobs cr4eated but occupied by foreigners. who are the ones really benefitting at locals expense.

eagle SG

I'm still awaiting your views