National service or Lees' business service?

last SG · 2007-12-24T09:40:32+00:00

You should be serving the nation, the people. Serving the hundreds of thousands of PRCs?not to forget the filipinos,thais,blanga..

CX SG

Totally agree. Singaporeans need to separate the state from the government.

Patriotism to the country does not mean support of the ruling party and vice versa.

pwnz0r SG

For those people that think National Service is a joke, please watch Schindler's List or the Pianist. These are very real events that could have been Singapore. Without this deterrent measure, most countries wouldn't treat Singapore just like that. M'sia and Indon would be far more aggressive in stance.

And for taxpayer's monies, do you have a clue on how low taxes we are paying? My US and Aussie friends are shocked at the amount we're paying. GIC and Temasek gains have been reported. It must be noted that while losses have always been made of a higher profile, there has been sizeable gains, esp from GIC side. Temasek a little subjective over the past 2 years.

In any case, the government is growing its taxpayers' dollars through investment. Other countries such as S. Korea are following in its footsteps. Note that the other countries like NZ, Aus, US, UK substantial income tax earnings are not used for investment but to subsidize welfare. Imagine your hard earned dollars are being thrown to the fella who is too lazy to take care of himself.

I prefer Singapore very much more. Those unhappy can migrate to places with on average 30% tax, like in Aus. My friends in the US typically pay about 50% tax. Have fun.

pwnz0r SG

One more aspect I would like to add.

My Indonesian colleague asked so what's the fuss about the ministers' salary, and I told him 3 million. He said, oh thats ok, our ministers get bribed by about 10 times that amount.

(human) SG

Our ministers are paid highest in the world please do not compare with other 3rd world countries. Anyone expect Lees to end up like Suharto's fate in Singapore?

maurizio13 SG

Your low tax argument seems flawed. What does low tax mean for Singaporeans? Most Singaporeans don't even pay taxes now, except for GST of 7% (most Singaporeans don't pay taxes before GST was implemented).

Other countries like NZ, Australia, US UK understands Economics, Business Cycles and Structural Unemployment. Do you even understand these concepts? Welfare maintains a basic standard of living for the unemployed. In Singapore, if your are unemployed, only avenue is beg, borrow, steal, pick up cardboard & aluminium cans or MRT tracks.

Your friends in the US pay 50% taxes must be more educated than you to realise the disparities. Despite having to pay 50% taxes, they are still willing to leave Singapore to enjoy a better quality of lifestyle. Most of my foreign educated friends all chose another western democracy to lead their lifestyle. Only ones whom I know that complain about other western democracies are those that are perpetually stucked in Singapore. More like sour grapes.

Mr. Green

If you are interested in living in a country with low tax rates. Why not try the tax haven countries like British Virgin Island, Bahamas, Monaco, Cayman Island, Mauritius, ................?

maurizio13 SG

What quality of life are we getting here when compared to a higher tax paying country Australia???

Maybe you can help shed some light on the subject. I posed this question on another thread, but seems like your fellow brethren, lionnoisy and Gay-Elle can't reply. Many thanks.

While the government throws away our hard earned money into frivolous acquisition of over-priced companies overseas. The commoners are left with having to pay the price with high levels of inflation, taxes, fees, charges and fines.

Ever wonder why our wages are so depressed, while citizens from other equivalent GDP per capita economies (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc) can better afford holidays overseas. Their average wages are at least 3-5 times of Singaporeans (e.g. waiters and retail assistant makes AUD 15 to AUD 25 per hour). Singaporeans can only contend with 3rd world standard of living in the future, given the government's policy on letting in more 3rd world workers to push down wages.

The explanation for low wages given by P4P was global competition, seems like competition only applies to Singapore ONLY. But not to countries such as Australia or New Zealand.

P4P lackeys here complain that some of these countries like Australia, New Zealand, etc have high tax structure. But given their wages, they still make more than the average Singaporeans and could afford more despite their high tax structure. Notwithstanding that they do not need to pay for healthcare and basic education.

Singapore:

Income per year: SG$12,000
Income Taxes: 0%
GST: 7%
Spending Power After GST: SG$11,160 [SG$12,000 x 93%]

Australia:
(waiter or retail staff based on 3 times earnings of Singaporean only, not 5 times which is the higher bound)

Income per year: AU$36,000
Income Taxes: up to AU$6,000 = AU$0; AU$6,001 to AU$25,000 = AU$2,850; AU$25,001 to AU$36,000 = AU$3,300
Australia Personal Tax Rates
Total Income Taxes: AU$6,150 [AU$ 0 + AU$ 2,850 + AU$ 3,300]
Income after Income Taxes: AU$29,850
GST: 10%
Spending Power After GST: AU$26,865 [AU$29,850 x 90%]

An average waiter in Australia will have a spending power of AU$26,865, while a Singaporeans waiter will have only SG$11,160. Why do you think when we go for holidays overseas, we can afford less than an equivalent GDP per capita country like Australia or New Zealand.

You do the maths and tell me who is actually better off after personal taxes and GST.

Singaporeans or Australians???

Though Australia might have a higher personal tax structure, but their average wages are 3 to 5 times of Singaporeans. Even after deducting high taxes and GST, they still do end up with more money in the pocket than an average Singaporean. Moreover, they have no need to pay for healthcare and basic education.

Australian Wages
Bartending/waiting tables: $15 - $25 per hour (casual)
Chef: $700 - $800 per week (full time)
Retail sales assistant: $15 - $25 per hour (casual)
Check out operators and cashiers: $500 - $700 per week (full time)
Building/labouring: $650 - $850 per week (full time)
Engineering: $800 - $1500 per week (full time)
Hairdressing: $530 - $650 per week (full time)
Secretarial/administration: $600 - $700 per week (full time)
Child care: $18 - $20 per hour (casual)

ispyyy SG

This thread is postable only if Singapore is run like personal family business by the Lees

Or else, I dont even noe what we r talking abt...
Laughing

CX SG

Originally posted by maurizio13:
What quality of life are we getting here when compared to a higher tax paying country Australia???[/b]

...

We've talked about this SO many times!!!

For pple who feel that they have a brighter future overseas, please do yourself a favour and GO...

I'm not considering a move because my family's here and they like it here.

We enjoy holidays overseas and all , but we live here and we like living here.

And THAT'S what I'll fight for if it comes to that!

All things are relative and we're relatively happy here, shocking as it may sound to some pple here... Smile

maurizio13 SG

That's why you failed to understand the issues of crimes and economics. If the economic prospect of crimes (probability of getting caught is little and gains far exceed the expected outcome), then crime is worthwhile.

e.g.
If the chances of a man getting caught for theft of $10,000 is 5% and the fine is only $5,000. Then it's worthwhile to commit theft. The expected outcome of $9,500 far exceeds the fine of $5,000.

Expected Outcome: $10,000 x 95% = $9,500

To reduce corruption, you need to increase the penalties, have stronger controls and enforcement.

Your logic of increasing pay to stop corruption is equivalent to, instead of a robber robbing an old lady for $1,000, you ask the police to pay the robber $10,000 so that he will stop robbing the old lady of her $1,000. Either way, the robber ends up a happier person.

Legislation and Enforcement is the key to controlling corruption.

What next?

Are we going to be paying traffic policemen more by the amount of bribes they can potentially receive every day while giving out summons?

Are we going to be paying soldiers more by the amount of top secret information that they can potentially sell to our enemies?

Are we going to be paying judges the amount of bribes they can potentially receive when handling corporate disputes?

maurizio13 SG

Is that the best rebuttal you can conjure up?

First of all, we are having a discussion to shed light on issues in Singapore and abroad.

It seems like my points do hold some truth. The truth hurts doesn't it. I am like a thorn in your flesh and you just want to pull me out. Not that easy, you have to earn your keep by rebutting my points. Else the points will keep coming up over, over, over, over, over and over again.

Whether you like it or don't, it's your decision, it's your choice, nobody is forcing things down your throat, nobody is asking you to stop elaborating your good points about how good Singapore is. Likewise, I think you should show the same courtesy when you aren't able to rebutt points made by me or anybody else here, to stop asking people to emigrate if you find it better there. Not everybody has the criteria to be accepted by Australian Immigrations, you think that Australia is like Singapore, accept any lionnoisy and Gazelle. Like I said, Singapore can only attract a large majority of 3rd world country immigrants and an extremely minute minority of 1st world country immigrants.

sgdiehard SG

Yap, not all of us like the ruling party, but make sure that when the anti pap tear the wall paper they don't tear down the wall with it. If people cannot make the difference between patriotism to our country and loyalty to a political party, these people are not politicians.

National Service is not Lee's business, and is hear to stay. Smile

nehpyh SG

Originally posted by (human):
Many people feel that Singapore has being run like personal family business by the Lees. If this place is not country but a hotel or some people personal family business, there is no longer so called [b]national service to talk about, it should call Lees' business service. The government should change National service to Lees' business service so to not confuse the people that this place is still running like nation because there's no nation to talk about.

How will young men feel when they have to being force to accept low wages and serve 2 years of Lees' business service? And how will those who had already served 2 or 2 1/2 years of Lees' business service who thought is national service and realised it's Lees' business service? Will anyone out there accept those kind of wages for 2 years to serve a family business?

Strongly think that lees family business service should not hide behind the good name of national service. How do you guys think?[/b]

Are you from the opposition? Mr. Green

CX SG

Originally posted by maurizio13:

Is that the best rebuttal you can conjure up?

I'm not rebutting u. To me, this isn't an issue to be rebutted. It is a matter of preference.

The truth doesn't hurt to me. It is a fact that there are greener pastures elsewhere. So what's this about rebutting your points? I have no issues with your points. It is ultimately a matter of personal preference.

First of all, we are having a discussion to shed light on issues in Singapore and abroad.

It seems like my points do hold some truth. The truth hurts doesn't it. I am like a thorn in your flesh and you just want to pull me out. Not that easy, you have to earn your keep by rebutting my points. Else the points will keep coming up over, over, over, over, over and over again.

No we're not... You are... You keep harping on it and bringing it up.

Whether you like it or don't, it's your decision, it's your choice, nobody is forcing things down your throat, nobody is asking you to stop elaborating your good points about how good Singapore is. Likewise, I think you should show the same courtesy when you aren't able to rebutt points made by me or anybody else here, to stop asking people to emigrate if you find it better there. Not everybody has the criteria to be accepted by Australian Immigrations, you think that Australia is like Singapore, accept any lionnoisy and Gazelle. Like I said, Singapore can only attract a large majority of 3rd world country immigrants and an extremely minute minority of 1st world country immigrants.

There's nothing worth rebutting... Australia is nicer than SG in many ways. SG is a better place for business than Australia if u want to be closer to the main markets in Asia.

Australia has fresh air and kangaroos, SG has has great connectivity to other regional business and financial centers.

And I don't see a problem with pple who want to move. Many of my friends are overseas now, some on short term secondment, some have already settled down overseas and they are happy and doing well. I happily congratulated their decisions to move and try something new and they now invite me over to visit when I have time.

I might move too if an opportunity presented itself, but currently, my family prefers SG and there are still many things here for me.

(human) SG

I'm a citizen not from opposition. Mr. Green

jr.spikey SG

(CX) I like it here too - low crime rate, a certain standard of affluency etc.

My policy in living here is just to work hard and fill my pockets to the brim with hard-earned cash to cope with whatever money-making schemes thrown at us.

Of course, that is not a good thing when it comes to active citizenship, but my point being: listen to the govt with one ear and let it all out the other ear.

SBS3625D SG

Don't be crap. NSFs protect you at night when you sleep. You do not know it only. Maybe its not so obvious when you look at the army, but NSFs man radars for RSN and RSAF.

Can't bear to serve the 2 years? Get out of here then.

reddressman SG

for fear of my personal wellness,

I must not reply directly to your post.

I , however, just like to say something not directly related.

I like to say that WHATEVER is the current situation or FACTs,

by the power of democracy,
being democratic citizens,
we are responsible for helping to do what is right.

Our actions determine who rules. not the other way round.

So, by this, I assume that majority support them.

I cannot comment what they have done is it right or wrong. But I think you can guess what is my thinking.
as long as you understand the message, that is perfect communication.

(human) SG

Why must get out when i have already served mine? Now we have national servants turning into national bandits, have all those who have served NS and serving NS not noticing that?

allentyb_v2.01 SG

There is a limit to everything, not everything, you have to relate to the LEE family......

celebrate the christmas spirit

SBS3625D SG

Then you are not making sense. Surely you understand that serving the country is not serving Lee?

Or have you forgotten to whom you pledged allegience for?

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