Saudi king 'pardons rape victim'

last SG · 2007-12-18T05:17:43+00:00

you're not chinese? what are you then?

protonhybrid SG

well no offence but i think you're being simplistic and naive. ancient persians had many achievements no doubt and so do current iranians. there are no indications that iran is intolerant. nor is there any reason to believe that "tolerance" itself is some sort of miracle that'll propel all societies into future, maybe into next millennium. nor is tolerance a panacea to all ills. in other words, tolerance doesn't mean much. nor does the lack of it.

and the FACT that UN charters TODAY is so close to persian charters harking back millenia, tells us UN hasn't advanced much (meaning those who pull the strings behind the UN) and therefore it's nothing to look upto, nor are any of their rulings or charters or treaties etc

protonhybrid SG

what do you consider the lack of freedom to go topless in public by women in anglophone countries in singapore and other british colonies? as compared to men who can do the same?

kindly answer me this, then a lot of doubts will be clarified.

protonhybrid SG

Originally posted by fymk:

Your comprehension is shocking. I already said I am in Australia.

that was a reply to a post BEFORE you revealed your location in this thread.

I have a right to criticise anything I wish. Freedom of speech , equality of women and all.

freedom of speech doesn't even exist, how does that make you have a "right" to criticize ANYTHING you like. CAN YOU CRITICIZE LKY OPENLY IN PUBLIC IN SINGAPORE? This is a singapore forum after all. among other such examples.

I may not be living there but that doesn't mean that I should tolerate what is going on with the women folk there.

So how I think Cyrus the Great will flip in his grave about your tune of imposition. The first great human rights document states contrary to what you say. Persian Empire FTW.

au contraire you SHOULD tolerate what's going on there since you've nothing to do with that place. if the news didn't hit the anglophone media, you probably wouldn't even know about it let aloen give two hoots.
cyrus would probably flip in his grave that persian has been conquered and invaded and cleansed of its inhabitants so many times already, more than about what women are upto at a certain point in time after his death, that certain point being today, which is no more different than any other points in time after his death (all this assuming, cyrus can do what you say after his death) lol

If I had my way to IMPOSE my VALUES on the WORLD - [b]all women in the world have equal rights - I don't see anything wrong with that - Do you? After women are the ones who gave birth to men - I don't see how women should be imprisoned in their own homes, married off like some piece of property exchange, guarded by their fathers/husbands/sons and if they were not lucky -having virtually nothing to escape a loveless abusive marriage OR even to get justice for themselves.

Calling me a bigot for wanting women to be on equal terms with men and have the same rights? I find that you are an equal , if not worse, bigot for being unable to take my opinions as a woman.[/b]

you're actually so bigoted that you dont even know you're bigoted. other bigots often know they're bigoted but wont change. you otoh are a blind fanatic who wouldn't budge an inch until her agenda is fulfilled. british empire for instance (which includes singapore australia uk usa etc all of which are i suppose your primary source for shaping your world view) also had many 'justifications' and they wouldn't budge until they'd achieved all of their objectives, not that they always could do whatever they wanted.

many a times they argued that giving 'natives' 'independence' would lead to calamity/disaster/mismanagement and voiced support for continued governance by uk itself for many of its colonies. since many of its colonies are poor, lack basic infrastructure, education, advancement, science/technology etc would you say british empire was justifiable too?

you can't argue that JUST BECAUSE YOU SEE IT FIT you can impose your will on the world. however by doing so in this post, you've revealed yourself as a fanatic bigot and i hope you rectify that error.

protonhybrid SG

who asked for your opinion mate? Rolling Eyes
if i were to give my opinions on everything frankly/with absolute freedom, i'll be booted out of this forum in no time. singapore is NOT a free place, and yet you a singaporean presumably touts your right Exclamation to freedom of speech expression blah blah blah

protonhybrid SG

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

i'm saying that we know that its wrong, because we live in a free-er world than them. from birth, we lived in security, we lived in peace, so we know that it is good.

but these people they never tasted it before, they have been living like this for generations after generations. suddenly just demolishing their old laws and "making things right" in your sights might not help them, in fact it might kill them and they will not be appreciative of it.

its like you keep a pet bird for years, then suddenly you release it into the wild to give it a free life. the bird will die because it doesn't know how to survive.

[b]
its like the iraq war. taking out saddam is good, logically,

the USA tried to impose what they felt was right, a democratic govt etc..

but the people aren't used to it, now they're confused and there's chaos. [/b]

you're talking about different topic, i dont want to divert this thread to that topic but you're just brainwashed by anglophone media propaganda.

for one saddam hussein was not only supported but recognized and had good relations with among others usa itself. rumsfeld has a widely circulating pic of him shaking hands with saddam in iraq, that was due to good relations. saddam hussein was the same person, he committed an aggression into iran, gassed kurds etc using american weaponry among others. and usa gladly supplied it.

dont fall for yankee propaganda.

protonhybrid SG

I was citing the history of human rights in non anglo settings, because apparently human rights to you is an exclusive european influence.

Like I said , I say what I want to , I state my opinion and if you don't like it , it's your problem .No need to show such bigotry about the overseas chinese diaspora.

actually apart from its major faults mistakes and errors, i wouldn't find any fault with usa or uk, for that matter neither with singapore. it's only those aspects that i hate or find distasteful. though in bigger scheme of things, uk and usa are by far the world's worst 'criminals'

protonhybrid SG

stop trolling.

protonhybrid SG

i dont think we're here to win or lose arguments. and women are treated very very differently in nonanglo cultures, as they're not all alike. anglo culture can also be said to discriminate against women openly as almost all other cultures if not all of them.
hence your argument doesn't hold any water. and plz stick to the topic, dont talk nonessential or nonrelated issues here.

protonhybrid SG

Laughing
i dont think you know what you're talking about. what the rest of the "guys know" is about your mental capacity i'm afraid if this post is anything to go by.

fymk SG

Oh yes I am such a fanatical bigot who wants women rights . Your topless statement is worthless . Not many women want that type of right to be topless and walking around the streets. Same rights pertain to something unrelated to anatomical differences such as the right to a job, the right to justice withou the singular need of 4 male witneses, the right to go wherever they want , the right to DRIVE.

Did I mention anything about colonising Saudi Arabia? Did I?

You are just a fanatical bigot who wants women subjugated to lesser beings. If you wish to have and treat a woman as your property, go to Saudi Arabia . There you can imprison your poor wife and do whatever you want to her while making sure that you have no MALE relatives around to watch.

Did I impose anything? Certainly not on Saudi Arabia . I voiced my opinion and I don't see how that IMPOSES on anyone except for men like you who think that a woman is a piece of property regardless of where they are in the world.

I hope that you will not have daughters because with a father like you , who needs family.

protonhybrid SG

that's your view but you need to learn how to keep it to yourself. saudis dont affect anything in singapore, they dont live in singapore nor do singaporeans live in saudi arabia. saudis were not singapore's colonial masters or vice versa. saudis aren't singaporeans' neighbours. etc
saudi-singapore relationship is almost insignificant. had this not hit the headlines perhaps you wouldn't even know that had happened. this hit the headlines in anglo american media, consequently in their colonies news media. voila! the colonial servants following their masters' que go on about
1. freedom of speech etc opinion being their rights , human rights blah blah blah
2. reprinting copying pasting the articles news AND VIEWS from their masters' media.

does it dawn upon any of you such freedom loving uppity fellas that uk usa australia etc are some fo the worst criminals in world history. usa - only country to use nukes on civilians. uk-endless list, like usa; had 1/4 of world as its colony. also note even TODAY, usa canada, australia nz and to an extent south africa are inhabited by people of anglo origin. they killed maimed displaced and exterminated those people and act AS IF they belong to those lands. a factually incorrect assertion by anglo media propaganda and govt's.

fymk SG

Extrinsic asked me for my opinion.

Who asked for yours?

I am in Australia - do as the romans do .

In Singapore, I also do as the romans do . Singapore allows a certain degree of freedom on speeches made by WOMEN and MEN as long as it does not incite sedition or to the government's view , dissent .

Compare it to your precious Saudi Arabia - take women out of the picture, they don't have any right to anything - no choice nothing .

fymk SG

wow I must be lucky then since I am colored, a woman and employed in Australia.

I don't give a crap about their past . It's the modern times now. In case you don't know - there are Equal Employment Opportunities commissioners installed around Australia to ensure equity to all .

I don't really give a crap about USA , ain't my country . I don't like their foreign policies - they are absolute crap but even USA has something about it that is good like entertainment from hollywood etc.

All I know , I enjoy the freedom of being a woman, having to right to walk about without my father guarding me from the other males as though they are ANIMALS, have a right to employment and career pathways, have a choice of having a family and being a career woman etc.

I prefer to see women having choices over what they want to do . If they feel that it is necessary for them to be with a male relative at all times because of their religion - their choice. If they feel they like a guy and they want to know him better thru a date - their choice.

If a muslim girl wants to don her hijab , by all means . If a muslim girl doesn't want to don her hijab , by all means again. All she needs to worry is about her family but even they cannot force her with life and death threats, not some law that lashes her for not wearing an abaya. Even the muslims in Singapore have that freedom. I don't mind a woman wearing whatever she wants as long as she has a choice. I am not some anglophile who sees an abaya and yell oppression. Some women made a choice to don it , fine with me. The key thing for me is that " as long as the women have a choice" .

Say what you will about anglo countries, they may be all bad to you but women's rights is something they have good going for them amongst all the things they do. Singapore too.

protonhybrid SG

i dont think you even know what you're own position is!

since there are physiological dissimilarities between these two groups, by your own admission, how can they be considered equal? the topic is not about "jobs" whatever that may refer to in this discussion, but about pardoning a female rape victim in saudi arabia. who was sentenced to lashes for violating that country's law.
quite simple eh?

fymk SG

Originally posted by Spartans:
Finally I come to the conclusion that protonhyrid is an ardent supporter of Saudi Arabia male-dominated Government. And high chance that he supports the gender discrimination himself.

He feverishly tried to attack fymk's view and opinion on the issue on [b]discrimination against women.

Let me tell you something, even it is the laws (Saudi laws) does not mean it is morally/ethically/logically correct. If you want to say I am imposing my view on the Saudi, so be it.

You are just one male Muslim who believe Saudi/Sharia laws against the women is fair and right. So be it. It is your opinion. To me, the Saudi/Sharia laws are extremely discrimintive towards the women gender. This is my opinion.

oh you mentioned that you do not believe in the term 'humane'. Well I'm afriad that is just your ill-pecerption. Even if you dun believe in 'humane treatment' does not mean it does not exist. Simple as that.[/b]

Protonhybrid cannot attack on discrimination against women, all he can do is plaster a label of colonialism on it and call it western oppression .

Bring in Cyrus the Great of Persia- and he says that there is no improvement in UN documents.

Bring in a country like Singapore - he says we are colonial servants.

Everything about his argument is circular.

Basically this guy wants discrimination against women to stand. How he faces his mother , I have no idea. Bash his mom up if she wants freedom?

LOL

protonhybrid SG

second i pointed to factual errors in your post (or whoever else posted that kurdish tale) but i dont have time to google them. i do know honour killings take place in arab world, as low earnings are reported by female in singapore or anglophone world compared to their male counterparts REGULARLY.

what is your point though?

and about the difference between legal systems in usa and ksa, how does it matter to the VICTIM that in usa you are FAR more likely to be raped than in ksa?

fymk SG

I am talking about discrimination against women . I want women to be treated as men are treated. You are talking about a law that discriminates against women. So here I am. Like I said their law makes it right for them but it does not make it right in MY opinion AS a WOMAN.

hey if a woman wishes to compete against a guy in sports with the same rules, her choice but it also depends on the person who organises it.

There is a reason why they segregate certain sports out - no one wants to hear accusations of molestations in contact sports or physiological advantages. Less the trouble , better.

Physiologically ,women differ from men. The equality in your eyes can only be achieved by nature and nature have to make everyone andrygynous . Everyone capable of bearing children. Everyone capable of standing up to pee with the same appendage on everyone else.

AndrewPKYap SG

.. what other countries did or did not do in the past or the present…. it is an atrocity to sentence a woman to 6 months jail and 200 strokes for spending time with a guy in a car… crapz… big time….

fymk SG

Low wages - why would you compare low wages to rape? No one in their right minds will do that . I earn the same as the guy ranked in the same position in Australia . So what low wages? Oh I actually won a job interview in Australia and the other person competing against me was a male. So what can you say about that?

Oh Singapore? They give more to the men who served NS = that is the right of NS men - I am not about to argue against that - those guys gave 2.5 years of their lives serving the country. They deserve every penny of it and more for their years of service.

Even rape statistics everywhere is underreported due to the victim feeling that she is to be blamed , shamed and facing her attacker again triggers horrible memories. Rape is about taking a person's control away.

Saudi Arabia - the only way to justice is to procure 4 male muslim witnesses who WITNESS the rape. If a woman reports it , she is not only subjected to humiliation and shaming her family for being "dishonoured", she is also akin to getting charged with adultery if she cannot produce 4 male muslim witnesses who saw the act take place. The woman is expected to fight til death to "protect " her honor.

Modernised Countries - the victim can seek justice by going to the police . Getting a rape kit test done, crime scene investigation if any ,and then going to trial.

Rape tends to be specially heinous because it is totally tears a woman inside out emotionally. Be it a Saudi Arabian woman or a caucasian woman or a chinese woman

I read somewhere that in the Arab world, they have to jail those poor women who have been raped so that their families don't get to them. Even if the family wants them out ,they sign an assurance that they will not kill the rape victim. Even if they do sign the assurance , they still kill her anyway for shaming them. And what does that get them? 2-3 months in prison for the killer and maybe a huge celebration in the village.

Why they kill the rape victim in the Arab world? Because if she shamed the family, her relatives will be octracised - her brothers ridiculed. So her blood cleanses all.

Take it on the other side , if a woman kills a man in the Arab world even defending herself, she dies anyways.

AndrewPKYap SG

... this is the 21 century and the new millennium and yet we have people living in the middle ages... why? More importantly is... are YOU living in the middle ages and why is that if you are?

The answer? ... ancients beliefs...

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