MM Lee 's talk of re-merging with Malaysia-how wd you do it?

last SG · 2007-10-29T11:57:47+00:00

History is loud and clear who started the negotiation for independence and who fought but lost and were arrested making those sacrifices and were unsung hero...

gUms SG

When the main island was colonized by the British East India Company in 1819, it contained a fishing village sparsely populated by indigenous Malays and Orang Lauts at the mouth of the Singapore River. The British used the position as a strategic trading outpost along the spice route.[1] It became one of the most important commercial and military centres of the British Empire and the site, in 1942, of what Winston Churchill called "Britain's biggest defeat" at the hands of the Japanese.[citation needed] Occupied by the Japanese Empire during World War II, it reverted to British rule in 1945 and was later part of the merger which established Malaysia in 1963. Less than two years later it left the federation and became an independent republic on 9 August 1965

The Constitution of the Republic of Singapore established the city-state's political system as a representative democracy, while the country is recognized as a parliamentary republic.[4] The People's Action Party (PAP) dominates the political process and has won control of Parliament in every election since self-government in 1959.[5]

sLeEpWaLkErInG SG

Just like the prophet said to Neo in the matrix 3 "Everything that has a beginning has an end Exclamation "

Building it and destroying it thereafter. Neutral

Atobe SG

Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:

hahaha, you got into this pile of crap again. Wah, your history are poles apart from mine. But thank you for copying part of it - the Federation of Malaysia. No, when SG joined the Federation, it is not independence for Singapore because there is no nation/country by the name Singapore but a state within Federation!
Britain gave independence to the Federation, not Singapore. The Federation was the British idea, and it was the basis and condition for Bristish colonies in Far East! Go read up history instead of magnetism.

I see that you have responded by dropping an alphabet 'h' from your attempt at laughing off a pertinent point in my critque to your post.

Do you seriously believe that your 'pile of crap' can get anyone stuck when its obvious stink will warn one of your presence ? Are you so desparate for recognition of your ability by blowing on your own pile of crap to make it more threatening then it truly is ?

You are surely correct that your history are poles apart from mine - did you pay attention to the events that were reported and documented by others who have spent more time researching on this subject ?

From the publication ''Malaysia-Singapore relations : retrospect and prospect'' authored by K.S. Nathan and published on 1 August 2002 - in the final paragraph of its abstract, the following was mentioned:-

UMNO's role should be viewed in the context of a general nationalist struggle in the 1940s and 1950s towards self-rule and independence, and subsequently for the promotion of Malay racial dignity and economic upliftment.

On the Singapore side, the PAP played an equally critical role in preparing Singaporeans for independence through merger, and later managing the separation from Malaysia without political, economic, and social disintegration of the city-state.

Many political researchers and historians had recorded and recognised that Singapore had received its independence only through merger; and if Singapore did not merge with Malaysia, the British Colonial Government will have probably delayed giving independence to Singapore - as the political thinking current in the early 1960s was that Singapore could not stand on its own, and will be a tempting target for any opportunist to make a quick grab to this abandoned economic gem.

This was the case with Brunei, which remained as a British Protectorate when it declined any merger with Malaysia.

Several records are available simply by entering key words into Google and you will get several historical records - one of which will show LKY writing a memorandum in which he had put forward a case for INDEPENDENCE THROUGH MERGER.

The Encyclopedia Britannica On-line had recorded that even the same terms of ''Independence through merger'' was offered to Sarawak and Sabah - resulting in these two states getting independence earlier then planned.

Now, it will be interesting to know where is the basis and source of your history that resulted in the history being poles apart.

You should be more serious when dealing with history, and any weak effort at even laughing is simply disrespectful to the past events.

How shall we look at the 'pile of crap' that hope to be 'TheGoodEarth' ?

Atobe SG

With more time in hand, and poring through the contents in a reference given in my last post - LKY writing a memorandum in which he had put forward a case for INDEPENDENCE THROUGH MERGER - there are some very interesting information that one can harvest looking back at the historical records in this reference piece.

From this memo prepared by LKY to Tunku, note that LKY had consulted UK Commissioner General (1953-69), Sir Robert Scott, Earl of Selkirk on the independence of Singapore through merger with Malaya, and subsequently including the British Borneo Territories.

This LKY ''meeting with Selkirk'' led to further meetings with Tunku Abdul Rahman and members of his Cabinet - notably Tun Razak and Tun Ismail - to obtain their acceptance; and it led to the Tunku asking LKY to prepare a proposal that will detail the creation of a Federation of Malaysia - combining the territories of Federation of Malaya, Singapore, Brunei, Sabah and Sarawak.

Before LKY's memo was submitted to Tunku Abdul Rahman, LKY ''consulted with Selkirk again'' and had him agree not to inform Tunku about the knowledge of this memo. While Tunku was reviewing LKY's memo, the UK Government was also similarly informed by Selkirk to the details of LKY's memo outlining the merger of the Federation of Malaya, Singapore, and the British Borneo Territories.

From this piece of information, it will seem that Malaysia was the brain child of LKY - and was not the creation of Tunku Abdul Rahman reputed publicly as the Father of Malaysia.

Now we know the deep personal disappointment felt in LKY to the failed merger, and for the tears that flowed during the public announcement.

It was a personal creation that was hijacked by the shrewdness of others who are more wily and adapt at politics - constantly moving behind the scenes and honed in the art of back-stabbing.

Could this be the lingering ache that lead to a continuous hang-up of LKY with the idea of any future merger with Malaysia ?

Is LKY planning a second come-back to take back the brain child that rightfully belong to him ?

Perhaps this time around LKY will listen to more experienced voices that understand the Malay minds, or does he continue to believe that his experience is more then sufficient to cope with the new situation as he had believed in himself being capable in the early 1960s prior to merger and ignored all other opposing voices ?

Now I wonder where did 'TheGoodEarth' developed the idea that merger leading to the creation of Federation of Malaysia was a British idea - must have picked up the whiff of a gossip from some familiar 'pile of crap' ?

TheGoodEarth SG

hmmm .... you are indeed into my pile of crap - yet ever higher and deeper. Your narration confirms my part of history - that Britain granted independence to its former colonies only when a NEW nation called the Federation of Malaysia is formed. Had SG remained in the Federation, would you say that Britain granted independence to Singapore? I think you are good in research but poor in deduction!
You have plenty of time to go round the bush and quote irrelevant parts here and there to suit yourself. But serioulsy, answer the question in red.

Atobe SG

No more laughing, and decidely giving more thought ?

It looks like you did not give your thought too much time to develop with caution.

Are you now suggesting that - ''Britain granted independence to its former colonies only when a NEW nation is formed''?

It is quite different from your earlier statement on 28 October 2007 - 10.37 PM which stated - ''Britain gave independence to the Federation, not Singapore.''.

Flip flopping in the 'pile of crap' will not help to improve yourself into being 'TheGoodEarth'.

How did you decidedly change your interpretation of history in such a short period ?

TheGoodEarth SG

hahaahha, you made me laugh again. Why are you repeating exactly what I said? You did not answer my question in red and still in the pile?

Atobe SG

It is obvious by now that the deteriorating condition in your 'pile of crap' has made you only able to attempt at weak laughter to regain composure but not any effort to read and think carefully.

Has your question in red not been addressed ?

What are you hoping to say to recover your position from the false statement that you made and pushed as fact in your earlier post dated 28 October 2007 - 10.37 PM which stated : ''Britain gave independence to the Federation, not Singapore.''.

Are you making a U-Turn in your position with this ambiguous statement crafted as a ''question in red'' - compared to your other points seen in your previous replies that contradict yourself - {shown below} ?

It is not too intelligent to desparately latch yourself to a single sentence that is nothing more then wishy-washy remark that is purely ambiguous in an attempt to squirm out of the 'pile of crap' that you created with your own version of history.

Was the Federation of Malaysia a ''British idea'' according to your version of history, or was it the idea developed by LKY in his memo detailing Singapore's independence through merger ?

equlus84 SG

All this talk abt merger, I think more or less it is a ruse tactic or merely one of those controversial talks let out of the loose gun(LXX).
I doubt he is crazy enough to even push forward the plans for a merger now as there are many underlying reasons.
SG broke awayf rom the federation due to the fact that PXP cannot agree with the Malaysia for malays system the UMNO had put forward back then. So if SG merge with MY, then it means LXX "kowtow" to the demands of UMNO or he has lost all means to let SG grow and develop further. Thus, he is willing to play second fiddle. But is he so stupid to allow such situation to happen. Think of it this way, would he rather be a king in a small kingdom or a small minister in a huge empire? No prize for guessing. With the bumi policy in place for so long, how would LXX gain their support if a merger is to happen? PXP may literally drown in the sea of this huge atmosphere.
Why I think this is a ruse is bcos. Most prob the PXP is gonna make news out of his comments, like running articles on the "lives of SGreans under merger". They will say things like unequal opportunities, racial policy, high crime rate, thus by contrasting to SG, they can "inflate" their so called success in these areas.

TheGoodEarth SG

Why are you shifting the pile? You still have not answer my question in red Had SG remained in the Federation, would you say that Britain granted independence to Singapore?

Atobe SG

So you do recognised your 'pile of crap' ?

That is an achievement.

Have you answered your own contradiction in the 'pile of crap' that you created ?

In your 'Question in Red' that you continue to repeat above - are you now claiming that Singapore got its independence from Britain BEFORE merger, or THROUGH merger, or NO INDEPENDENCE as you claimed in your post on 28 October 2007 - 10.37 PM ?

How do you want us to understand your ambiguous 'Pile of Crap in Red' that states nothing of your position ?

Be honest with yourself if you have made a U-Turn.... or did you simply made an honest error in typo-print TWO TIMES in one paragraph in your reply posted on 28 October 2007 - 10.37 PM ?

Me..... shift the pile ?

It seems you are trying very hard to shift it yourself and hoping for me to help you do it without any loss of face to yourself.

You have created such a huge pile of crap with this post on 28 October 2007 that it will be easier if you simply cover it with your shadow, and throw more then a pile of sand over your shadow - it may just help you a little more to cover the 'pile of crap' that you have expertly piled up.

Are you concentrating your effort on one Question in Red to hide the 'pile of crap' that you have created ? Was the Federation a British idea ?

Which history sources have you referred to in coming with your brilliant idea that the Federation was a British idea ?

Did you miss my post towards the bottom of Page 1 of this thread ?
For your convenience, I am shifting it from Page 1.

Originally posted by Atobe: - 28 October 2007 - 11.27 AM

With more time in hand, and poring through the contents in a reference given in my last post - LKY writing a memorandum in which he had put forward a case for INDEPENDENCE THROUGH MERGER - there are some very interesting information that one can harvest looking back at the historical records in this reference piece.

From this memo prepared by LKY to Tunku, note that LKY had consulted UK Commissioner General (1953-69), Sir Robert Scott, Earl of Selkirk on the independence of Singapore through merger with Malaya, and subsequently including the British Borneo Territories.

This LKY ''meeting with Selkirk'' led to further meetings with Tunku Abdul Rahman and members of his Cabinet - notably Tun Razak and Tun Ismail - to obtain their acceptance; and it led to the Tunku asking LKY to prepare a proposal that will detail the creation of a Federation of Malaysia - combining the territories of Federation of Malaya, Singapore, Brunei, Sabah and Sarawak.

Before LKY's memo was submitted to Tunku Abdul Rahman, LKY ''consulted with Selkirk again'' and had him agree not to inform Tunku about the knowledge of this memo. While Tunku was reviewing LKY's memo, the UK Government was also similarly informed by Selkirk to the details of LKY's memo outlining the merger of the Federation of Malaya, Singapore, and the British Borneo Territories.

From this piece of information, it will seem that Malaysia was the brain child of LKY - and was not the creation of Tunku Abdul Rahman reputed publicly as the Father of Malaysia.

Now we know the deep personal disappointment felt in LKY to the failed merger, and for the tears that flowed during the public announcement.

It was a personal creation that was hijacked by the shrewdness of others who are more wily and adapt at politics - constantly moving behind the scenes and honed in the art of back-stabbing.

Could this be the lingering ache that lead to a continuous hang-up of LKY with the idea of any future merger with Malaysia ?

Is LKY planning a second come-back to take back the brain child that rightfully belong to him ?

Perhaps this time around LKY will listen to more experienced voices that understand the Malay minds, or does he continue to believe that his experience is more then sufficient to cope with the new situation as he had believed in himself being capable in the early 1960s prior to merger and ignored all other opposing voices ?

Now I wonder where did 'TheGoodEarth' developed the idea that merger leading to the creation of Federation of Malaysia was a British idea - must have picked up the whiff of a gossip from some familiar 'pile of crap' ?

LazerLordz SG

LKY seems to have wanted to lead an independant Malaysia.

Atobe SG

The current talk by MM Lee - of re-merging with Malaysia - seems to be the lamenting reminiscing of an old man, recounting the missed opportunities of his youth, in a Malaysia that was his own brainchild.

Is MM LKY feeling a taste of bitterness now to the fact that his brainchild was snatched from him under the circumstances as revealed by new documents released that give more details to the events that transpired ?

Had the merger not been rushed by a dishonestly drafted Referendum prior to merger, perhaps events may have been different.

Poh Ah Pak SG

>>Why PAP in 1962 hell-bent on wanting merger with Malaysia?

Reply by Gandhi Ambalam:

I hope you don't mind if I bring in a few relevant historical developments before answering your question.

In 1961, the PAP was at its lowest ebb in popularity, having lost the Hong Lim by-election to Mr Ong Eng Guan and the Anson by-election to Mr David Marshall of WP. Not only these unfavorable events affected the PAP under Lee Kuan Yew's leadership, but the biggest blow that took place the same year was the split within the PAP. The splinter group calling itself the Barisan Sosialis took away almost the entire PAP branches, together with members and supporters, leaving only Lee Kuan Yew and his cabinet colleagues. The Barisan split came about because of unfulfilled promises of the PAP in its manifesto in the 1959 elections. As far as the Barisan leaders were concerned, the PAP under Lee Kuan Yew was deviating from its pro-people, pro-worker policies -- a betrayal of its socialistic principles.

In this changed political environment, the then Malayan Prime Minister, Tunku Abdul Rahman announced for the first time the Malaysian concept of merging Independent Malaya with the British Crown Colony Singapore and the British Borneo Territories. This announcement by the Tunku to the foreign correspondents in Singapore came as a boon to the beleaguered Lee Kuan Yew and his almost "skeletal" PAP.

Lee Kuan Yew quickly latched on to this Malaysia concept which had the blessings of the British. The PAP propaganda machine was quickly set into motion with the claim that "Malaysia is as sure as the Sun rises".

Historically, Malaya, including Singapore existed under the British as a single entity until after WW II. It was only after the War that Singapore came under the direct rule of London as a British Crown Colony. Malaya became Independent in 1957, but Singapore still remained under the British with its excellent harbour and with the highest concentration of British troops east of Suez.

Almost all the political parties in Singapore were not against the reality of the Island becoming part of Peninsular Malaya. But the only objection were that of the unfair terms of merger and above all the inclusion of the Borneo Territories. Indonesia under Seokarno objected to the formation of Malaysia because it saw it as an imperialist plot. The Philippines under President Macapagal, the father of present president Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo, also opposed Malaysia for its historical claim over Sabah.

The PAP under Lee Kuan Yew had no alternative but to quickly promote merger to the people to prevent an imminent demise of the ruling party from the onslaught of the mass-based Barisan Sosialis headed by its charismatic leader Lim Chin Siong. The hastily arranged unfair merger and its subsequent breakup within two years stands testimony to the Barisan's initial objection to PAP's bulldozed merger.

Gandhi Ambalam
Chairman
Singapore Democratic Party

http://singaporedemocrat.org/SDPforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ba66bd3f71192aabea3a385e4c96f61b&topic=5.0

Lee Kuan Yew's polling fraud example 1962
http://uncleyap.blogspot.com/2007/06/lee-kuan-yews-polling-fraud-example.html

Atobe SG

Good piece by Ghandi Ambalam except for that part concerning the timing between Tunku's announcement and the claimed idea that LKY capitalised on Tunku's announcement.

Many had believed that Malaysia was Tunku's idea, and this view has been affected by new evidence released from the Public Records Office in London, which has thrown new light on the development of that period of history in this region.

The reference site in my earlier post has shown the step-by-step events that transpired, which will reveal the events prior to the concept of a Federation of Malaysia being announced - and all was recorded in a piece that was entitled - LKY writing a memorandum in which he had put forward a case for INDEPENDENCE THROUGH MERGER.

This reference site will require patient reading, and scrolling to several relevant sections that will provide even more interesting details from that period of our history.

robertteh SG

Originally posted by Atobe:

Good piece by Ghandi Ambalam except for that part concerning the timing between Tunku's announcement and the claimed idea that LKY capitalised on Tunku's announcement.

Many had believed that Malaysia was Tunku's idea, and this view has been affected by new evidence released from the Public Records Office in London, which has thrown new light on the development of that period of history in this region.

The reference site in my earlier post has shown the step-by-step events that transpired, which will reveal the events prior to the concept of a Federation of Malaysia being announced - and all was recorded in a piece that was entitled - [b]LKY writing a memorandum in which he had put forward a case for INDEPENDENCE THROUGH MERGER.

This reference site will require patient reading, and scrolling to several relevant sections that will provide even more interesting details from that period of our history.

[/b]

It has previously looked as if our independence was fought first by David Marshall and subsequently the credit went to MM Lee.

Historical evidence probably showed otherwise i.e. Tungku had fought for independence of the whole territories of Malaya, Sarawak, Sabah and Singapore as a block known as Malaysia.

Our leader LKY simply went along with the plan out of convenience and had preferred to make it look like he had fought and won the independence for Singapore but actually it was Tengku who had obtained the independence for Singapore as a block of territories.

History then should be re-written to reflect a more accurate fact.

Poh Ah Pak SG

Lee Kuan Yew NEVER fought for the independence of Singapore according to Said Zahari:

Zahari's 17 Years
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22Martyn+See%22&sitesearch=video.google.com

Said Zahari gives the details in the above film. He claims that Lee Kuan Yew publicly spoke of fighting colonialism to play along with public opinion while secretly cooperating with the British to eliminate the left-wing movement in Singapore and to secure his own power.

LazerLordz SG

You guys should read up on the declassified UK Foreign Office memos relating to our fight for self-government and the role that LKY played.

You'd be surprised at the different sort of opinions they had of him in Whitehall, vis-a-vis what we have been taught.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by robertteh:

It has previously looked as if our independence was fought first by David Marshall and subsequently the credit went to MM Lee.

Historical evidence probably showed otherwise i.e. Tungku had fought for independence of the whole territories of Malaya, Sarawak, Sabah and Singapore as a block known as Malaysia.

Our leader LKY simply went along with the plan out of convenience and had preferred to make it look like he had fought and won the independence for Singapore but actually it was Tengku who had obtained the independence for Singapore as a block of territories.

History then should be re-written to reflect a more accurate fact.

Unfortunately, Tunku was never keen in having Singapore join the Federation, even when the seed of a greater Federation was planted into his brain by LKY - the Tunku only saw Sabah and Sarawak to be included but never Singapore.

The reason was due to Tunku's fear of the huge population of ethnic Chinese in Singapore - that would have diluted the numbers of the ethnic Malays even further, when combined with the ethnic Chinese population that already existed in Malaya during 1960s.

The Tunku was contented with his Federation of Malaya, and it was never in his idyllic mind to have the ambition of taking over the British controlled territories of Sarawak, Brunei and Sabah {with Sabah being known as British North Borneo before merger}.

With the earlier failed attempts by David Marshall to gain independence for Singapore in the early 1950s, LKY had to work hard to convince the British that Singapore can be independent by being merged with a bigger Federation.

LKY had to worked hard to convince Tunku Abdul Rahman to accept Singapore being merged into the Federation of Malaya - AND to make it more acceptable in the racial ethnic numbers, the population of Sarawak, Brunei, and Sabah would have diluted the ethnic Chinese numbers in Malaya and Singapore combined.

The population numbers game was a politically sensitive issue in the politics of the 1960s - and remained so to this day.

During the 1960s, the ethnic Malays numbered no more then 50% in Malaya, and without Sabah and Sarawak being included, the large ethnic Chinese population in Singapore would have undermined the ethnic Malay numbers count in a merger of Peninsular Malaya and Singapore only.

Although the ethnic Malays numbers will shrink to being 40% majority when combined with the different ethnic populations from Sabah and Sarawak - it is more acceptable then having only Singapore included.

The British Colonial Government was supportive of LKY's idea of including the British held territories in Borneo, as the Home Government in Britain was already planning a cutback of its military and colonial expenditures to the vast British colonial holdings across the globe.

As much as the British Colonial Government was apprehensive and cautious in dealing with LKY, whom the British ISD had investigated, they found him to be an ambitiously driven person. They worked with LKY to carry the plan through with Tunku Abdul Rahman, and played the role of an 'honest broker' when consulted by the Tunku - even as they worked behind the scene with LKY to get the plan through.

Atobe SG

The following was extracted from someone's research into the ''History of the PAP''.

Unfortunately, some of the enthusiastic speeches and strident statements made by some personalities have since changed due to parting of ways, and sheer disillusion and betrayal of ideological goals.

The First Battle for Independence

David Marshall led the first Merdaka Mission to open negotiations with the British for Independence of Singapore. Constitutional discussions began in London in April 1956. On board, representing the PAP, were Lim Chin Siong and Lee Kuan Yew.

The mission returned in failure and their demands for independence were refused. The British felt that the Labour Front government was too weak and the Communist elements in Singapore too powerful. If there was to be independence, the British fears needed to be calmed. David Marshall resigned and Lim Yew Hock took over as Chief Minister. He had two objectives. Firstly, he had to prove to the British that Singapore was able to resist Communism. Secondly, he wanted to purge the trade unions, schools and political parties of pro-Communist and Left Wing Leaders who were beginning to threaten the rule of the moderate politicians such as himself and LKY. Thus began a series of arrests under the Public Security Ordinance. Lim Chin Siong, Devan Nair and Fong Swee Suan were some of the prominent politicians being detained. (This issue will be dealt with in further details under Lim Chin Siong and Devan Nair at Part III)

It was Lim Yew Hock who took both blame and credit for the waves of Internal Security arrest. But the PAP was undoubtedly the main beneficiary of his tough regime. Lim Yew Hock arrested five Left Wing PAP members, newly elected onto the partys Central Executive Committee (CEC) in August 1957, delivering the PAP from what was effectively a Left Wing Coup. Shortly after, PAP introduced the cadres system (to be elaborated under Dr Toh Chin Chye section at Part II), which prevented any further Left Wing infiltration into the partys inner core.

Independence from the British

The next Constitutional Mission to London in April 1958 was a success. Under the State of Singapore Act in August 1958, the colony became a self-governing state. Elections for the new 51 member Legislative Assembly were scheduled for May 1959. Lim Yew Hock was given a heros welcome on his return and a noisy motorcade from Kallang Airport.

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