PM must headhunt for 4th generation of leaders b4 next GE

walesa SG

If anything, it's your objectivity that is clouded because you've obviously missed the point and choose to assume political innuendoes hidden in my words.

The bottomline is that your suggestion that self-renewal is important for the survival of this country is flawed - it isn't quintessential for the country's survival, it's only quintessential for regime survival. Period.

Suffice to say, I'm not that sure some of the examples you cited can even be remotely classed as self-renewal to begin with for they warrant more being categorised as unintended circumstances of events.

Go over the example you cited on how able successors bring happiness to oppressed masses. Just apply my statement to the eventual destiny of the dynasties you cited.

eagle SG

"Isn't the American political leadership self-renewed every 4 years?"
"is there really a need in the American society to invoke a brand of self-renewal remotely close to this regime's desperate attempts at prolonging its survival"
" So, contrasting the two instances, are the two versions of self-renewals still the same product of your all-encompassing definition? "

Isn't this an example of how you acknowledged that self-renewal is a required process, by raising the example of America and North Korea? And by further indirectly referring to the incumbent as tyranny and despots, are you sure you aren't trying to suggest that the PAP is merely doing self-renewal for the sake of extending its hold on its 'tyranny'? That self-renewal is flawed just because it is done by the PAP?

Erm... Let's talk about the Tang dynasty, about the example of Emperor

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty

"Taizong set out to solve internal problems within the government which had constantly plagued past dynasties." -> an example of how a good successor will sort out problems

We can also see that the Tang draws students from imperial examinations -> ensuring the process of renewal of officers.

Did the people feel oppressed? No history sources show that. Yet instead, good successors ensured the welfare of their people.

Decline? An Lushan's rebellion... Why did it happen? The emperor's incompetence. This is a good example of the importance of good successors!

"cellular definition of self-renewal is quite irrelevant to this particular context where you're addressing something less scientific and less clearly-defined. "

No comments if you don't buy the cellular argument. I will also assume you would not buy the Tang dynasty raised above. So I shall raise other examples now.

Have a look at this book "A Strategic Approach to Corporate Governance" by Adrian H T Davies. It raises examples of Texas Instruments, Unipart, Equitable Life as companies who understood the importance of self renewal. The book even raised the example of Japan, who is undergoing self-renewal through different processes. In the book, one of the processes of self renewal is understanding the potential need for new competencies and resources. This is what I'm emphasizing on.

Self renewal is indeed important not only for survival of the country, but too the future of the country. "it isn't quintessential for the country's survival, it's only quintessential for regime survival" is a extremely finite and simplified view of self-renewal. True, you may claim that it prolongs the 'tyranny' and grip of the 'despots'. This is because you had purely viewed self-renewal within a restricted area (within the PAP); self-renewal extends to all sectors of the society, including corporates, government, opposition, and most importantly, both myself and yourself!

btw, personal talk here... you know german right? Wink Where and how long did you learn it?

lotus999 SG

what is the problem? didn't the chief justice said greed works most of the time?

walesa SG

Let's first assess the abovementioned. Is your assessment even remotely accurate? Are you for a moment suggesting self-renewal in any other fasion bar the method adopted by the despots would result in an inevitable demise of the country? So has this country failed to survive while it has lasted through colonialism with the British, imperialism with the Japanese and fascism with the incumbents? Or rather, is the brand of self-renewal you so agree with merely important to the survival of the regime?

It's blatantly evident you've either failed to comprehend my words in its entirety or have simply been incapacitated to do so. I suppose you'd have little trouble coming to terms with the fact that the brand of self-renewal this regime (in fact, all despotic regimes possess a similar modus operandi) engages in is pretty much a self-induced one. Taking the American instance, do you see the need for the Democrats or the GOP embarking on a brand of self-aggrandizement self-renewal process to recruit "capable people" to sustain their respective parties? Or do most of their members actually register on their own free will and ultimately, the ablest candidates prosper through their own merits instead of having sycophants rubber-stamped by their respective parties?

In short, what you see in the American model is hardly self-induced renewal, is it? If anything, its a brand of personnel renewal brought about by an institution which facilitates the renewal process without the need to induce a self-renewal process.

I think you haven't fully understood the context of what you'd queried earlier. Let's take your argument further and consider the Soviet Union.

In theory, if your argument that a good successor who ensures the welfare of its people would yield a happier citizenry more willing to comply with the regime, Gorbachev shouldn't have had the honour of being the man under whom the Soviet Union decimated, should it? After all, wasn't he the most liberal Soviet leader and under whom the Soviets had their interests extremely well looked after?

Would you then like to explain how the USSR crumbled under Gorbachev's charge, yet had remained intact when it had more ruthless and intolerant leaders (well, just about everyone from Stalin to Brezhnev)? So the pertinent question is : Do despotic regimes get overthrown because of "incapable successors" as you claim? Or are there more influential underlying reasons that give rise to the eventual demise of such despotic regimes? I guess you'll have your answer to that if you evaluated the destinies of autocratic regimes more thoroughly.

Well, that's precisely where we differ. What good is it for something unsustainable to self-renew and prolong a problem which wouldn't be rid of itself through self-renewal?

Now, as an electrical engineer, you should understand this analogy (I shall assume you're familiar with the concepts of modulation). Wink If you were tasked with using a particular device (whose properties you can't alter) to modulate a signal with a pre-determined bandwidth to obtain a given modulation index, would you still persist on using this device if you know full well it's impractical and virtually impossible, within reasonable limits, to obtain the desired modulation index with the given device? In essence, for you to suggest the present brand of self-renewal (at least, the brand adopted by the despots which you regard as being important to the survival of the country) being important to the country's (instead of the regime) survival would pretty much be comparable to having an engineer who insists on using a device to obtain a modulation index he knows to be impractical and realistically impossible.

In essence, fixing a problem within another in a flawed system isn't going to sort out that system, is it? It's not rocket science then that such a brand of self-renewal is indeed not very prudent.

I replied to that sometime ago in another thread on languages... Razz I can't remember where I started learning it actually, although I picked it up somewhere in school but wasn't that proficient in it until I was at college in the US. Even then, I only really got well-versed with the language when I used it regularly while working in Switzerland, so my German might smack of chinks of Swiss-German. Laughing How about you?

eagle SG

Here it is. Whether the system we are talking about is flawed is open to debate.

I know where our difference lies. I believe you are still discussing on the 'brand' of self-renewal, while I have pointed out to you earlier that I'm not. There are many 'brands' and 'means' of self-renewal, of which, the goals are almost equal => to have a capable successor. It may be, in your words, self-induced like the PAP, or people coming on their free will. Much as I have talked about the importance of self-renewal as a process, you persisted in countering with PAP's brand of self-renewal, and your illusion that it is not required for survival. There was no mention of any disadvantages of self-renewal as a process, but rather, as inferred from your argument, the point that it is not required for survival, which I strongly disagree. By merely basing your arguments on PAP's brand of self-renewal, aren't you purely viewing self-renewal within a restricted area? Self-renewal gives you new competencies which are definitely vital for the future of the country, be it self-induced or by willing participants.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev
"While Gorbachev's political initiatives were positive for freedom and democracy in the Soviet Union and its Eastern bloc allies, the economic policy of his government gradually brought the country close to disaster. By the end of the 1980s, severe shortages of basic food supplies (meat, sugar) led to the reintroduction of the war-time system of distribution using food cards that limited each citizen to a certain amount of product per month. Compared to 1985, the state deficit grew from 0 to 109 billion rubles; gold funds decreased from 2,000 to 200 tons; and external debt grew from 0 to 120 billion dollars."

It is clear here that his policies were for the good of the people, yet brought economic disaster to his country, which finally result in the physical suffering of the people! Isn't this called 'incapable'?

I only learned German for 2 yrs for student exchange Wink Hmmm... Maybe I can ask you for help when I need it in my current module Wink

Lowclassman SG

LKY wants to ensure PAP survives for another 100 years or more. Mr. Green

walesa SG

If it wasn't, it'd be known as an irrefutable truth. I mean, you don't dispute with facts (like insisting a dead man to be alive), do you? Wink

It isn't so much where our difference lies that has sparked this discourse - it's your inability to defend what I challenged in your initial argument that self-renewal (as preached by this regime) is quintessential to the survival of the country that has yielded this civil discourse. If anything and lest you're disillusioned and unable to comprehend what you'd failed to address, I'm saying the brand of self-renewal which you regard to be vital for the country's survival is a fallacy (which you're obviously entitled to disagree; after all, even lunatics are entitled to think their conduct is an acceptable norm) for ultimately, it sustains the regime above all else. If you need any evidence to call on to see how the country has survived various methods of leadership renewal, just look to the colonial era under the British and imperialism under Japanese occupation.

So how much have you learnt? Wink Proficient enough to sustain a conversation or able to understand some media in German?

I'm not sure if I'm that much more proficient than you... Laughing

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