Singapore: A Question of Soul or Spirit

Atobe SG

The problem with a mental handicap is that can you even know how to spot the proof when presented, let alone to digest it and interprete it - and we have confirmed your status through your continuous superb display.

If my maths do not add up, surely the Government concern that more Singaporean aged not being able to support themselves should be telling ?

Do you know how to look for proof ? Or are you accepting to be a handicap and need to be spoon fed continuously ?

What constitute a better life for you ?

What more wealth do you have that will last you through your old age ?

If you are part of the Elitist from the Ruling Party, of course you have more wealth than any Singaporeans from 'the Heartlands' when you can proclaim your wage increases of 33% to Mega-Millions, while restricting our wage increases to 3% to miserly extra hundreds.

If you do not not even understand the price that I am talking about, why are you here asking silly questions ?

Those born in the 1910s through 1930s were between one month old to twenty years old when the depression had largely affected the mature economies of Europe and USA.

Did it affect Asia ?

That depression caused the European powers to be even more aggressive in their land grabbing of China, Africa and the Latin Americas. It resulted in mass migration of the Europeans to new territories in Australia, Africa, and Asia.

Be a good Mat, and go find out for yourself how much a SINGLE Cent could buy in the 1950s, compared to what TEN cent can buy today.

I may pay you in CENTS if you get your senses right.

Mat, will you ever attempt to improve yourself to being a simple ''straw mat'' and become at least a cheap ''carpet'' ?

Being a beggar with a ''straw mat'' is less rewarding than being a ''carpet beggar'', surely you must know the difference ?

Read carefully the difference between the worth of our Singapore Currency today with the Singapore Currency of the 1950s.

Read carefully the statement between the Singapore Currency today and the Currencies of our neighboring countries.

Read with your eyes and think, and not simply with your butt sitting on the Mat.

Who crafted the Singapore Pledge ?

Who are the persons appointed to be President, and the Political Party that formed the Government through an electoral system that do is not representative of the majority of Singaporeans ?

Did you oversleep lying on the Mat, and missed the speeches made by the various Ruling Elites - who believe that the Government is symbiotically and genetically linked to their Party perpetually ?

Are you still lying on your Mat ? Try thinking deeper as to why it is the human nature to respond and become materialistic ?

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Atobe SG

continuation

You are still lying on your Mat.

Is your opinion made from the Mat worth anything ?

The difference between my arrogance and LKY is that he is able to impose his arrogance on Singaporeans more then I can.

The problem with your question is that it is not directed at the idea in the text of my post.

This is the trouble with your line of misquoting and directing your question that brings the discussion to another line of debate.

If you want to be accurate, at least address the idea of the text to be quoted in full, and not target a single statement taken OUT-OF-CONTEXT from the entire idea.

Can we trust a mental spastic to be accurate ?

Start a new thread if you want to debate - ''is it wrong to aim for better life ?''

Would you care to substantiate your statement made with such bravado, or should we accept your handicap mind as it is - with no hope from the known spastic state ?

How did you so cleverly conclude from my text that I have equated ''individualism automatically to excellence'' ?

Does ''individualism mean automatic execellence'' ?

In a ''rat race'' to be an elite, can all Singaporeans arrive at the same identical individual quality ?

Are Singaporeans clones ?

Already it is proven to be impossible - as we accept your individualistic trait of a superior mind that is in a constant spastic state - to be beyond the achievement of anyone in this Speaker's Corner.

It is certainly ridiculous for you to conclude that I have said anything about - ''it is wrong for govt to want better life for singaporeans''.

iLuVpOrKyPiG SG

richer in what sense?

every singaporean who owns a car or flat is in debt!!!!

if you lose your livelihood you lose all you have.

Mat Toro SG

Originally posted by Atobe:

The problem with a mental handicap - which we have confirmed by your continuous superb display at being a spastic - is that can you even know how to spot the proof when presented, let alone to digest it and interprete it ?

if all you do is to start off with insults and refuse to answer directly or reason, it just shows that you cannot compete in the arena of ideas and is intolerant of diverse views.

If my maths do not add up, surely the Government concern with that more of the Singaporean aged not being able to support themselves should be telling ?

You claim we are poorer today compared to the past, on what basis are you talking about?

Do you know how to look for proof ? Or are you surely accepting to be a handicap and need to be spoon fed continuously ?

it seems you are running away from logic once you are challenged.
how can you complain when others challenge you for claiming that we are poorer?

What constitute a better life for you ?

More wealth would be a great indicator and we are definitely more wealthy than we were. We were never as wealthy as we are today.
What is you definition of a better life may we ask?

What more wealth do you have that will last you through your old age ?

Is it the govt's job to take care of us from cradle to grave? You want a welfare state? You want the govt to tax the young heavily to feed the retired? How would you like an income tax of 50% like in Australia? You think that gives you wealth?

Did the ruling party increase wage by 33% and restrict wages to 3% increase? I don't think so. This is a free market, wages increases are determined by employers my fren.

Those born in the 1910s through 1930s were between one month old to twenty years old, and the depression had largely affected the mature economies of Europe and USA.

The great depression did spill over and affected SE Asia because we trade a lot with the west. Didn't you know?

Did it affect Asia ?

Yes it did. Very much so.

That depression caused the European powers to be even more aggressive in their land grabbing of China, Africa and the Latin Americas. It resulted in mass migration of the Europeans to new territories in Australia, Africa, and Asia.

What rubbish. Colonisation happened mostly in the 18oos, not 1900s. I suggest you read more history than you play X box.

Be a good Mat, and go find out for yourself how much a SINGLE Cent could buy in the 1950s, compared to what TEN cent can buy today.

Be a good atobe and count how many cents we had back then.

I may pay you in CENTS if you get your senses right.

how many censt do you have in your pocket? You can't be richier than me thats for sure.

Read carefully the difference between the worth of our Singapore Currency today with the Singapore Currency of the 1950s.

Read carefully the statement between the Singapore Currency today and the Currencies of our neighboring countries.

OK, give us a source and we'll compare shall we?
Make sure you compatre how much we earned and how much we earn today.
Make sure you compare real purchasing power back then verses purchasing power today as well sir.

Who crafted the Singapore Pledge ?

Did our pledge tell us to be loyal to the govt?
Looks like you forgot our pledge sir.

Who are the persons appointed to be President, and the Political Party that formed the Government through an electoral system that do is not representative of the majority of Singaporeans ?

Did you oversleep lying on the Mat, and missed the speeches made by the various Ruling Elites - who believe that the Government is symbiotically and genetically linked to their Party perpetually ?

You mean the votes don't represent the people?

Are you still lying on your Mat ? Try thinking deeper as to why it is the human nature to respond and become materialistic ?

PAP didn't create human nature. Its nature.

Mat Toro SG

Not every singaporean. I don't have debt on my house. So do many people I know.

Whats wrong with debt anyway? Debt makes the world go wrong. w/o debt facility, the world would not have much economic growth to begin with. Its seesm you do not have a good understanding of the necessaity and workings of the ursury system in an economy and economic development my fren.

I suggest you reaqd up on both history and economics.

Coquitlam SG

I guess sillypore does not have a soul.....even if it did, it's soul is probably pre-occupied with the pursuit of material wealth

Oh well.....woe betide me for being born in sillypore...kekeke but alas...I'm out of this little red dot...discovering another's country's soul much more worthwhile pursuing....

Lefleche SG

This memory is etched in my mind forever.

when i was a kid, i went to disneyland with my family (this was in the 1980s). we were inside this omni-theatre style of auditorium and it showed scenes of the USA. suddenly, the entire audience stood up spontaneously and burst out in song singing "America, the beautiful". there was no announcement to sing or any prompting. they sang with passion and geniune love for their country.

i was touched. and even though i didnt what the song was about, i was moved to tears.

many yrs later, i know that the USA is often divided along political lines and social issues but one thing they do agree is that America is their home and they are proud to be americans. apparently, their disagreement did not destroy or weaken their country, or dilute their loyalty to their land.

we are often told that having a differing politics would destroy our country, but it seems that not having a chance to disagree would destroy the soul of our country.

nowadays, who sings the national anthem? go to any school and you will realise that the quietest period of the day is the morning assembly period.

Atobe SG

Should anyone compete with a mental handicap ?

It will seem so unfair, and the best that we can do - is to encourage by prodding a mental spastic to move along in some guided direction, and hope that he will respond with less idiocy.

It seems that there is movement from the Mat.

You are certainly not talking to those who were less in debt in the past, than the huge debts that everyone of us are burdened with despite the seeming materialistic wealth that we possess.

If you are a local ''Heartlander'' and graduated from the Polytechnic or from the University, surely you would be in debt at least to one of your parent's CPF account - unless of course you are from the Elitist Group ?

Move on in the ''Life of a Heartlander'' and watch your mountain of debt grow as you commit your income between mortgages, financings, insurances and family requirements; and see how much wealth remains for you to accumulate for you to retire as an ''AVERAGE Heartlander''.

Are the lives of the Heartlanders today richer than when they were living in their kampongs, when they can have whatever essentials they need by either growing or rearing, and whatever meagre revenues can then be saved ?

The problem with a Fool is that the World is seen from the perspective of a Fool, and the Fool's conclusion of the World is that it is no better than a Fools' World.

Only the Fool is the smartest one - everyone else is running away from a Fool's Logic when challenged by the Fool.

Can anyone challenge the ''superior logic of a Fool'' ?

It seems your true self is emerging.

I have not conceded to a spastic, who at least is helpless of his physical handicap and can be prodded to a better path; but I will not waste my time with ''Fools'', and will certainly concede to ''any Fools''.

You can take the beef and eat it raw or anyway you wish.

Now, we are moving somewhere with you getting off the Mat.

What is your definition of wealth ?

How do you measure wealth that will make you decide that we are wealthier today then in the distant past ?

How much of the 1950s do you know that allow you to make such a comparison ?

What makes you think that Singaporeans - the majority of whom are Heartlanders with 90% of Singaporeans living in HDB public housing - are wealthy ?

Are you certain that all the taxes that we are paying in all the many disguises are not already amounting to 50% like in SWEDEN - which is different from even Australia ?

Would you even have the slightest clue that even if you do not own a car to pay for the COE or the ERP, you are also part of this squeeze when the businesses that pay for such ''taxes'' would have passed on these costs to you as a consumer.

This is on top of the GST that is paid on the ''taxes'' built into the prices of the goods sold to you.

Do you even know what a Welfare State is all about before deriding it ?

SWEDEN has an upfront 50% income tax payable by all its Citizens, with no more other taxes disguised in many creative forms and for so many reasons.

All hospital services are FREE with no ''disguised inflated hospital fees'' given ''subsidies'' and balance payable in CASH by the Citizens.

Despite a 50% income tax, Sweden is seeing an increase in its birth rates compared to Singapore's ''low tax and disappointing birth rates''.

If you are part of the Elitist from the Ruling Party, of course you have more wealth than any Singaporeans from 'the Heartlands' when you can proclaim your wage increases of 33% to Mega-Millions, while restricting our wage increases to 3% to miserly extra hundreds.

[quote]
"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think." - Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987

If he wants to interfere totally into our lives - surely he should take full responsibility for our WELFARE ?

Why pick and choose and limit the responsibilities that he decide for his interference ?

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Atobe SG

continuation

Are you mixing your history with the last economic downturns in 1987, 1997 and 2002 ?

Asia was no economic powerhouse in the 1930s, it was simply a raw material supplier, and there was no mass dependence on MNCs employing mass cheap Asian labor as in the present day.

The Asians of that time had their own local insulated economies to get by, involved in their tradional trades for their own immediate and internal needs.

Surely, you have not lived in the 1950s to even have the slightest inkling of what life is really about, let alone your inaccuracies in reading history ?

See above reply. Go back to your Mat if you do not agree.
I will not be offended.

As I have said, your reading of History is inaccurate as you probably have been lying on the Mat throughout your school days.

Do you think that you can re-write History to suit your own ideas ?

''During the 1930s, Japan the most developed power in Asia, invaded and conquered parts of nearby countries of Manchuria and China. Japans growing power brought it closer to the European nations of Germany and Italy. In 1934, Japan made an anti-Soviet pact with Germany. The three countries eventually formed the Axis Powers who fought the Allies in World War II.''

Second World War started out of the 1930s depression, with Hitler mobilising Germany to ''colonise'' the whole of Europe.

''In the 1930s and 1940s immigration expanded to include larger numbers of central and eastern Europeans, a pattern that continued in the years following World War II. Many of these immigrants settled in Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina, and Brazil.''.

Africa also saw more colonisation in the 1930s.

This clearly shows you have no interest in the Truth, or even know how to handle it.

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Atobe SG

continuation

Only a Fool will boast of the little that he has.

Like I said, I will concede to the logic of a Fool.

''Real purchasing power'' - do you even know what it means ?

Instead of asking for sources which a Fool will surely dispute, why not simply ask your aged relations how much they paid for a house back in the 1960s - (forget even in the 1930s when those are already hardly to be found) - based on their meagre wages compared to this present period.

Ask them how much a bowl of noodles cost in the 1950s and the 1960s compared to the present day.

What were the prices of the essential agricultural products then and now ?

Keep matters simple instead of comparing disputable items such as refrigerators, radios, cars that see improvements in technologies that dictate the price during product launch.

Is the nation not inclusive of the Government ?

Alright, as I have said - I will concede to a Fool - and will admit that I was referring to the SAF Pledge which every Male Citizens will have taken an Oath and committed to it till at least we are demobbed at the Legislated Constitutional Age for the respective Ranks.

Go click on the Wikipedia information on Election 2006, and compare the actual number of votes that the Ruling Party had been given, against the number of Citizens who did not vote (including the Walk-over Wards).

As much as LKY desire to be God in attempting to be omnipotent in the lives of Singaporeans, he does not qualify.

Unfortunately, did he not create the environment in which human nature became at its worse ?

Why did he stop in his Omnipotence effort of deciding what, how and where Singaporeans should be ?

Mat Toro SG

Originally posted by Atobe:
[b]continuation

As much as LKY desire to be God in attempting to be omnipotent in the lives of Singaporeans, he does not qualify.

Unfortunately, did he not create the environment in which human nature became at its worse ?

Why did he stop in his Omnipotence effort of deciding what, how and where Singaporeans should be ?
[/b]

LKY never desire to be God or be omnipotent. I wonder why you choose to worship him like that.

He has however done a lot of good for Singapore and we shld be grateful for that.

spinsugar SG

What a meek, off-topic answer. You..really didn't get what Atobe said, or are u just pretending? O.o

In ur many posts, why do you keep asking for evidence when it has already been given again and again, yet never offer any evidence of your own to back your claims? U sure Atobe's the one who's running away?

miserable SG

Where are the proofs ??? Please give support to your statement above. Mr. Green

ctxpope SG

Both Atobe and mat taro are not answering each other qns.
Both are evading.
Both are using fool's logic.
Both are equally deluded and one-sided.
I may be a troll. But I am an educated one( but I am a scam)
In short, both may be using long essays to sound impressive, but both of them have zero in content.
If u think PAP is pure evil, then make urself unhappy all ur life in whining abt them.
If u think PAP is godlike,then be their puppy and bootlick them all ur life. U may be come MPs one dae who noes Mr. Green But u will still be regarded as a dog.

Be more neutral la.......enjoy life(and sex) while u still can

reddressman SG

I just want to say that

We should educate people that you care or know

that we as the People are partly responsible for the problems also.

How to make things more Accountable, Transparent ?

We are all partly responsible for singapore.

I exercise my responsibility by educating people that they are responsible for singapore also and we should improve it.

Honesty is more important than anything else.

We can only trust honest people.

To be honest, 1st be Transparent.

At this stage of singapore development, I believe we need Honesty more than anything else.

We should contribute to this by giving mandate to respresentatives who support this idea.

Mat Toro SG

Its easy. We used to be poor with high unemployment. Lee turned it around and made us rich. Young punks like you dunno history.

walesa SG

That's what's so wrong with such a mindset.

Look at the greatest democracies on the planet (many of which also happen to be the most prosperous nations on earth). How many of them actually celebrate individuals or figures?

The United States isn't the nation it is simply because of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt. As a matter of fact, school children around the US do not cover history lessons that instil a sense of gratitude and reverence to any of those figures in question. The same could be said about other liberal democracies around the world.

Ironically, it's the worst dictatorships that actually propagate a brand of cult worshipping unfamiliar to the civilised world that is democratic and free. So, would you still like to advocate voting for a bunch of despots to dictate your future on the back of past achievements and regard that as a brand of healthy democracy where political decisions are formed on the basis of gratitude and reverence?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Actually hor, the roadmap for Singapore's development was not laid out by Lee, but rather by a person he hired to do that. It was that person who turned Singapore around with his ideas.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Correct, the greatness of Singapore comes from its people, and not one or two individuals as if the people owe them a living.

And of course, if you see a system that keeps looking back to past glories instead of reflecting on what is really happening now, something has gone wrong somewhere down the road.

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