The lack of social cohesion-whose fault is it

morbid4ever SG

In my humble opinion, it is partly due to our upbringing. Our ancestors came here for riches and the mentality that was pass on is "mind ur own business."

However, there is a significant part because the govt failed to inculcate true nationalism. They propoganda us rather than trying to unite us .

What we really need in spore are ppl who can selflessly fight for the nation, just like the hero in the movie "brave heart"

Just my two cents, feel free to comment or rebutt me if u think otherwise.
I am in all "eyes" to see them. Embarassed

DC+ SG

too much socialisation leads to promiscuous sexual behaviour

Kuali Baba SG

I doubt so. There was the kampung spirit in the past. And nationalism is rarely manufactured - it arises unexpectedly from a series of events.

gigabyte14 SG

the closeness was gone, thanks to HDB.

robertteh SG

Ex-PM Goh has used meritocracy and pragmatism, for the narrow purpose of avoiding more creative pro-business and pro-people solutions of problems.

Despite his lack of success in achieving many goals announced such as improving the wages of ordinary people, he is today still a strong believer of pragmatism which simply translates into money making for the government.

All the civil servants became mercenaries using every opportunity whenever there is a problem to use such problems as excuse to charge fees, increases taxes for "pragmatic" solutions to problems.

Pragmatism was conveniently used to cover up problems and override all issues when the final solutions to our problems should be to create a more cohesive culture, leadership-by-example social morality, cohesion, equity and justice among the people from overall education and governance system.

Singapore has missed a golden opportunity to upgrade and restructure the initial success from the 1970s with such culture- and social- approaches which will be more sustainable and lasting.

In the mess created, the whole domestic economy has been eroded with private sector struggling to survive rising costs of doing business.

The results are deep periodic recessions and structural unemployments due to failure to restructure the economy to value-add and technology-driven model talked about for years.

The hapless citizens who despite all the years of contributing to the coffers of HDB/LTA/URA etc suffered again and again from pragmatism and mercenary ways of taxing and profiteering by HDB/LTA etc and were made to pay more and more to no end to accumulate more and more surpluses and increase profits for all ministries and departments and their respective offshoots of GLCs.

Singapore has missed a golden opportunity due to wrong governing philosophy which presumed that simplistic utterances of leadership and talents and constant salary increases to a few top leaders would solve all problems.

They forgot that if they have motivated the people by more creative cultural and social approaches as mentioned they could have made use of initial success and surpluses and empty lands and factories, to create more vibrancy and jobs.

Now as long as they are still practising the so-called leadership and pragmatism, they will continue to exact higher taxes recover all possible costs, double-charging with COE, ERP, lands, assets already paid for by people by selling such assets to such GLCs and getting them to charge for same all over again.

sgdiehard SG

your statement is right and wrong. Wrong because our ancestors came here and they helped each other, through the clans and associations. New immigrants came here and they all started living in the clans and associations. They gather funds to start business through Tong Tin, without collateral or guarantee. But, you are also right, the other mentality is not to bother about politics, government business "zheng hu e dai yi". The result is lot of China towns but few chinese in official government positions. See this in SEA in particular.

Talk about social cohesion, which society do we belong? I grew up in serangoon, my friends mostly from the families of Chinese helicopters. My in law side mainly english educated, most don't even understand Mandarin, my friends and my wife have few words when we meet.

I have a malay colleague, working in City Hall. She would travel with us by MRT to Toa Payoh for lunch but not to Keppel for fear that the elders in her family or mosque might see her eating with pork served on the same table.

Another colleague, half his family and most of his extended families are in Australia, he has no interest to travel in SEA, so the only thing he shared after a holiday is Perth or Gold Coast , Mr. Green He knows little about Canada, and China to him is like Africa. (I can visualize many of them in this forum) If we travel to australia he would arrange everything for us, but it is oz oz oz and oz.

Of course, I have my church friends, and some small groups of Singaporeans migrated from Malaysia, HK, China (PRC and ROC) over the last 10 years, and my relatives.

What is social cohesion? all these become become one common group? not possible. I guess having friends with different groups, different kinds of people is social cohesion. It all started when we were young, how we make friends, how we keep friends, and what has the government got to do with that? they don't deserve credit but also don't need to blame them. Damn, everything also blame the governmet, very typical!!

People in HK are a cohesive people, more so now then before, especially 10 years under a communist government. Of course, single race and monolingual helps in promoting social cohesion, but I also realize one important thing: over the last 10 years, after 1997, those HKgers who wanted to migrate, talked about migrating, have all migrated. All who stayed behind knew they had to be united together, so now nobody in HK talk about migrating anymore. May be we should be a little bit more patience to allow those who want to migrate just leave Singapore, then there will be social cohesion in Singapore. Mr. Green Laughing Cool Very Happy

Omniknight SG

single sex schools fault

fymk SG

I don't blame the government for certain things. There are only certain things within control and some out of control. I do blame them for bringing in FT policies which favor foreigners over citizens. I do blame them for allowing employers to favor foreigners over citizens. I do blame them for all the upset they are causing in some singaporeans over the payrise of ministers.

Is your last sentence a very intelligible one? No. When you enter government or do policy work - a main word comes into play - sustainability. Sure, Singapore will be sustained for the next 10 years but the question - to whose benefits? Singaporeans or just small subset of elites?

The hkers who stayed back either are the very rich who see China as a jumping plank to more riches (because communist china is more capitalist than communist), or those who can't afford to move off and have to bite their lips and survive day by day. China has vast resources while Singapore has none . So in effect, you are comparing a jackfruit to an small almond.

Right now , Singapore attracts the PRCs , filipinos and Indians because of pay or because of lifestyle - who knows. Some might be accepting the pay here because in their own country , that is alot of money . They could remit it back and become wealthy landowners or investors back in China or India. So when they can go back as wealthy people , they will easily uproot all their monetary assets from Singapore back into their home country.

Mass exodus of your mercenaries, who is left behind to deal with the rubble? Your own Singaporeans. I doubt there will be social cohesion if economy is really bad and all the locals are suffering while the brightest, talented and the skilled left for better pastures. Of course , there will be a small percentage of the brightest, talented and skilled who will remain. They will be left with nothing but rubble to rebuild a Singapore again.Some overseas Singaporeans may come back and help rebuild but it will be slow again. So don't diss overseas Singaporeans - some of us still have a soft spot for Singapore.

Look at Malacca's history , and you will find some disturbing similarities between Tun Perak and LKY. Philipines was once a very rich country compared to Singapore itself. So don't talk so fast. And remember : History repeats itself.

breytonhartge SG

so true... Very Happy

sgdiehard SG

Want to talk about FT, similar threads exist, go there.
Want to talk about ministers pay, similar threads exist, go there.
Here we talk about social cohesion, you need to enter government to improve your social skills for better social cohesion? no wonder why the government fails, Embarassed forgot I said shouldn't blame them.

hkers who stayed back in 1997 were the very rich ??? you are totally disconnected with the reality of that time. If you say that to any HKyers who migrated to US, Canada, Oz, NZ...they would be laughing their hearts out, for they were the richest among all, to be able to migrate to so many places. When you talk to them, just don't say you are from Singapore, please.

I compare the social cohesion of HK with that of Singapore, not the whole China, you know how big is China?

All my maids from Indonesia worked only two years for me then went back and bought land built house to get married. If any FT see investment back in their home country yielding greater returns than leaving it in Singapore, it is their perogative, at least they made the right decision to invest in Singapore to start with. You should wish your investment in your new place give you greater returns than in Singapore, or else the FTs are better than you in investment. Sorry, not so nice sounding but it is true.

sgdiehard SG

Overseas Singaporean? you are overseas working, but maintain your Singapore citizenship? or you have you taken up a new citizenship? Overseas Chinese refer to Chinese as an ethnicity, the Chinese as a race. Singaporeans is not an ethnicity, it is a nationality. There are PRC Chinese, ROC Chinese, American Chinese, Singaporean Chinese, same ethnicity, different nationality. you can slang your angmoh but the angmoh will still recognise you as a Chinese, but you give up your citizenship, you are no longer a Singaporean! don't tell me your hearts still belong to Singapore.
Mr. Green

We need friends even now, and we certainly looking forward to friends overseas to help us, even take side with us in time of trouble. These will not only include those who were born in Singapore, but also those who once lived here and work here. we hope their memory of Singapore was pleasant enough to help. If they dont' help, it is their choice. But can we count on sillyporeans who uprooted everything including their memory of Singapore? If they left with such bitterness, continue to criticize the government (ok for they deserve it to some extent) and the people who stay behind, even predicting dooms day for Singapore (like a curse), are they even our friends??

don't understand "mass exodus of your mercenaries", now only some "sillyporeans" leaving Singapore, where got "mass exodus of mercenaries". We are staying behind to fight for a better future, including for a better government. If you think future of Singapore is doom, it is your perogative to move, but we cannot accept you dooms day scenario. We certainly do not accept that the people who have left us were "the brightest, talented and the skilled", tell that to the government of your new home, just make sure you don't disappoint them.

Care to illustrate the disturbing similarities between Tun Perak and LKY, and why is Philippines in the picture? Rolling Eyes

sgdiehard SG

Laughing the Chinese say "da shi ai, ma shi teng". You hammer me because you love me, you scold me because you are fond of me.

fymk SG

Shrugs. Say what you like. Obviously you still cannot comprehend that I do still currently have a pink ic and a Singaporean passport which makes me a Singaporean. Just because I am overseas, so what? Must you be so aggressive about the point that I have citizenship while being overseas? Are you really that sore that I can move at will while you cannot? My memories and history are still entwined in Singapore. It is impossible to uproot those from my own mind. Maybe you need to improve your comprehension.

ROFL There are overseas Australians but I never heard of an australian in australia telling his overseas compatriot that he is not fit to be an australian. Neither do I hear PRCs doing that. I only hear you , a Singaporean , telling me I cannot be Singaporean just because I am overseas and criticising the government's policies.

So stop being full of yourself and listen. Until you have seen and lived in another country, you cannot see why people are criticising the government. It's just tunnel vision. I couldn't understand why people do it until I moved out for overseas study and have a look at it myself when I came back into Singapore.The perception becomes clearer and you look from another point of view , not the government sanctioned view. Mind you , I actually sacrificed the chance of an overseas scholarship to contribute to SINGAPORE and that was the worst decision I made in my life. So don't tell me that I don't have the right to criticise, I sacrificed something in my life to come back to my own country and be treated like crap because I am a commoner. Second chances come along rarely and I have to take it .

Foreign talents have no loyalty to Singapore. First sign of trouble they run , hence mass exodus. If you don't get it in the sense of the broader picture, I pity you.

As for Tun Perak , he was the kingmaker - go read the history of Malacca before you demand the interpretation.

Philipines itself was a richer country than Singapore once . You talk as though Singapore will be perpetually rich ...but it won't. Countries go up and they go down - that is a fact itself in history.

fymk SG

Originally posted by sgdiehard:

quote:
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Originally posted by fymk:

The hkers who stayed back either are the very rich who see China as a jumping plank to more riches (because communist china is more capitalist than communist), or those who can't afford to move off and have to bite their lips and survive day by day. China has vast resources while Singapore has none . So in effect, you are comparing a jackfruit to an small almond.
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hkers who stayed back in 1997 were the very rich ??? you are totally disconnected with the reality of that time. If you say that to any HKyers who migrated to US, Canada, Oz, NZ...they would be laughing their hearts out, for they were the richest among all, to be able to migrate to so many places. When you talk to them, just don't say you are from Singapore, please.

I compare the social cohesion of HK with that of Singapore, not the whole China, you know how big is China?

Read properly. Did I say they are all very rich? Before you decide to put some more words in my mouth ,go read the bolded. There are some rich fellas who stay because they got the potential and connections to make it big.

quote:
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Originally posted by fymk:

Right now , Singapore attracts the PRCs , filipinos and Indians because of pay or because of lifestyle - who knows. Some might be accepting the pay here because in their own country , that is alot of money . They could remit it back and become wealthy landowners or investors back in China or India. So when they can go back as wealthy people , they will easily uproot all their monetary assets from Singapore back into their home country.
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All my maids from Indonesia worked only two years for me then went back and bought land built house to get married. If any FT see investment back in their home country yielding greater returns than leaving it in Singapore, it is their perogative, at least they made the right decision to invest in Singapore to start with. You should wish your investment in your new place give you greater returns than in Singapore, or else the FTs are better than you in investment. Sorry, not so nice sounding but it is true.

My investments in Australia already have returns - So what are you talking about?

Stay in Singapore ....I as a local own nothing or probably owe 80% to HDB for a 99 year lease apartment while slogging away . Stay in Australia, I own an apartment owing 30% of the value to the bank so it is backed against itself. Sorry, don't get you about me wishing my new place giving me greater returns. I already got greater returns in Australia.

If I didn't return to Singapore to work , I would have owned a 100% without mortgage. But I returned out of blind loyalty...so I kenna big time ....70% of my apartment is mine and 30% is owed to the bank. I still have to make up for alot of lost time.

sgdiehard SG

Ok, my apology, some how I got the impression that you have uprooted everything, including your memory and left, if you did that then I have every right to tell you what I told you. But if you have not, I owe you a sorry.

My job enables me to travel very extensively overseas, to many countries, I am comfortable in Singapore because my family is here. If I had accepted a posting to Shanghai, I would have invested in properties in shanghai in the last 5 years and I would have made a lot more money and retire. It was a decision made, didn't do it as sacrifice for Singapore, just didn't like to bring my family to shanghai.

Accept or reject a scholorship, you had a choice. Had to go NS thus foregoing a scholorship is a sacrifice. There are FTs who had asked their sons studying in australia to come back to singapore for NS. Don't dismiss the dedication of the FTs. Not all FTs would run at the first sight of trouble, not all Singaporeans would stay and fight for their country. Some Singaporeans migrated because they married foreigners, some migrated because most of their relative are already overseas, it is their choice and it is our choice where we live our life. We should have that kind of mutual respect, for fellow Singaporeans as well as the FT.

WiNtEr'SkiLL SG

we dont have any. Shocked

fymk SG

I had a choice . That is why I said I made the worst decision to come back.

I have been thru the system and probably both of us have very different opinions or experiences.

You have been travelling about but I have been living in another country for a few years. That gives me time to sit back and think. And also it is easy in Australia to find out who owns what since the Singaporean community is very small. I know some of the elites have backups - like properties etc in Australia. That is why sometimes I can really choke on what some of the elites say.

I know of PRs who asked their sons to do NS because they think it is a form of great discipline. But you just never know - in a war , they can run back to their own countries. Singaporeans can't - most I know can't run elsewhere- maybe over the border to Malaysia ...but otherwise they are stuck.

sgdiehard SG

the rich have backup in australia and singapore, the richer ones also have in Malaysia, HK and China, some in UK. If you are rich and are in for properties, it makes sense of diversify your property investment portfolio, it is backup for financial risks rather than backup in case there are trouble in Australia or Singapore.

NS is a form of great discipline, a great experience and a great way to reinforce the sense of belonging for our young people, and to instil confidence in the country, with or without PAP. Singapore will not become rubble in time of war, nobody would be stuck, why some Singaporeans cannot have the same kind of confidence, because of LKY or PAP? Surprised

When your country goes to war, and you are only looking for a place to run, even China is not big enough. War with terrorists today, the frontline is not more dangerous than anywhere behind. Singapore had many choices on how to fight a war, but one limitation remains, we cannot run back. With that in mind, it is up to everybody in the SAF to fight, and the whole Singapore to support them. As to how would SAF fight with such limitation, start a thread in Military Nuts and many people, quite knowledgable ones will tell you.

fymk SG

Like how a school boy from a certain elite school in Singapore answered a question posed: " Don't worry , I will help Singapore. First my parents say we go overseas during the war. Then after the war, we send money to help Singapore."

Go figure why some Singaporeans cannot have the same confidence ...

sgdiehard SG

I not worried, there are enough Singaporeans, plus some FTs who got confidence, enough liao. There will always be some who got no confidence, but they can leave. Like I said, nobody is chasing them also nobody is keeping them.

My suggestion is that they better run now, or they get stuck. While the property market is hot, sell the house, when war comes all houses would be worth nothing; before the government change their policy again, take out the CPF; fly now before Singapore declared war zone, then have to take sampan, very far to go australia; change citizenship now, before all citizenships given to refugees, the many elites and FT from Singapore.... as for me, can't say I would die in Singapore, but I will be here looking for some cheap houses left behind. Laughing