Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia

last SG · 2007-06-01T10:23:48+00:00

sometimes non muslims will get affected also.... during ramadan fasting times..no food in university, they say respect other pple's religion but who arent t...

googoomuck SG

Punishment for Apostasy Quran and Hadith

The hadith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
"If anyone leaves his religion, then kill him."

Quran, on the other hand, makes no provision for the killing of apostates.
Quran 2:256 affirms complete freedom of religious belief:
"There shall be no compulsion in religion ..."

God is willing to welcome an apostate back into his fold if he(apostate) repents and seeks forgiveness.
[Quran 3:89] Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This is understandable. Surely God will say the heck with you but it's not a death penalty. The apostate can seek solace and santuary in another religion.
[Quran 4:137] Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

Some say we need the hadith to explain the Quran because the Quran is too difficult to understand. Why do people who find it difficult to understand a single volume of God's revelation feel it necessary to refer to 50 volumes of hadith books for clarification! Would God reveal a message so difficult to understand, yet expect people to follow it? This does not make sense.

So do not attempt to study the hadith on your own. It is almost impossible for anyone to go through all the books of hadith without getting confused and totally lost. Ask for guidance from a Muslim scholar.

Atobe SG

Before this thread is hijacked by ''eager muslim bashers'' in branding Malaysia as a softer 'Taliban State' - we should ask ourselves if Islam is the only Religion that prevent its followers from giving up the Faith ?

Catholicism is known to punish those from its flock who renounces the Faith, by utiilising its ''ultimate method'' of ''ex-communication'' to condemn the renouncer of the Faith to 'eternal damnation'.

The Catholic Religion do not accept birth control, and even the advocating and teaching the use of condom as an affront to the teachings of the Catholic Church - qualifying ex-communication.

Why will two of the oldest religions in the World - Islam and Catholicism - be so adamantly restrictive towards allowing its 'members' from leaving their respective congregation by renouncing their faith ?

Why will these two great religions treat those who have renounced the Faith in such harsh manner ?

While ''ex-communication'' - as practised by the Catholics - is a psychological tool on the human weakness for religious security and comfort, Islamic Countries tend to treat those who renounces its Faith more severely in physical ways.

The simple reason for the Catholic Church to retain the numbers in its flock, and to increase its population can only be for ''financial reasons'.

The Catholic Church - like most organised religions - is an entity that benefit from the organised collection of tithes that are supposedly ''voluntarily'' but are expected from each and every believer of the Faith.

To marry a Catholic, will require one to convert to the Faith, or at least the off-spring must be baptised as Catholics.

Islam is no different in its characteristic demand for the contribution of tithes, and for one to convert to its Religion if a non-believer is to marry a Muslim.

While most religions have ''democratised'' - it seems that these two religions remain locked in ancient practices, as these two are also the Oldest Faiths in the history of Mankind.

Since the old practices benefit these two respective religions, and also create political benefits to those few countries that dictate the Religion as the official State Religion, it is only natural that they will pronounce more harsh treatments towards those renouncing the Faith.

It is surprising that Indonesia being the most populous country is more liberal in giving its Citizens more leeway in deciding their personal religious beliefs.

This reflects the maturity of its people, its society, it social and cultural standards, and in the manner that its people respect each other.

One can see the diversity of religions practised by the Indonesians - who are blood related to the Peninsular Malays - as we see the Indonesian practising Hinduism in Bali, while in Java there are members in the same families being Christians and Muslims all living under the same roof.

Religion is practised to the extreme - through narrow interpretation - only for the sole benefit to those looking for quick access to personal power in the Present Age - whether Political, Social or Religious Powers, as these Power Seekers see the easy opportunity to capitalize on the human weakness in needing a 'Religious Crutch' to face the challenges of a Modern World.

Arapahoe SG

The only thing is that each one of us is born as a Human Being first rather than a muslim or christian. I can understand why if one person adopted muslim it cannot change because it is a betray to the Almighty, Similarly to christian but i think faith is an important decision that each one of us have to made that spritual connection, and comunication. Religion is a personal thing. To shave it down into the throat, Religion don't work that way.

BillyBong SG

During the crusades, the Pope's word was treated as that of 'GOD'. Present day skeptics will view the Pope in those ages as a 'WARLORD'. Is it any surprise that it can come full circle, with islamic fundamentalists being branished as 'WARMONGERS', being labelled as the founders of modern day terrorism.

To a certain extent, the current war on terrorism could subtly be termed the modern day 'crusade'.

mancha SG

There is growing sentiments in the religion that it is fundamentally fawed.
That it is up held by fear, peer pressure and draconian measures and blind obedience. And is protected by legislation, apleasement and common courtesy of the non followers. Belief of its divine source is eroding.
It has cult characteristic. Fear and political clout is its underlying principle. Not fear of God or compassion. The innocent sheep in their midst fooled us all, and blind us to the political agendas of the teachers.

The communist attempt at world domination through imporvished workers is over. We are now facing the same threat all over again. World domination through religion. And another round or suppression, persecution and anhilation.
Sheez!
Hopefully common sense will prevail and all these averted.

Icemoon SG

I am speaking from a Jewish point of view. I presume they work on the same premises?

Actually Allah revealed the Quran to a selected group of people, not the whole world. The Quran is meant to be interpreted with the Hadith.

The Hadith could be more cryptic than the Quran. Mr. Green

Icemoon SG

Your reply is very one-sided.

1. Catholic Christianity and Islam are not the oldest faiths in the history of mankind. The oldest practising faith should be Judaism. And Judaism does not encourage conversion of the spouse. The biblical precedent would be the case of Naomi who married an Israelite. When her husband died, the mother-in-law tried to discourage her from joining the ranks of Judaism.

2. While the offsprings are baptised as Catholics (I'm not sure whether this is compulsory or not), it does not mean they are Catholics when baptised. If they are, then the parents and Church are shoving the faith down the child's throat. The truth is the children need to go through confirmation at age 16 to be a professing Catholic.

3. I don't think if you backslide, they will ex-communicate you. They can't be bothered la .. haha

Icemoon SG

Actually Islam believes that the People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians) both have a share in the world to come.

Hence, if the lady wants to op-out and becomes a Christian, it shouldn't be a grave mistake.

Rather that than a wayang Muslim.

(human) SG

All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion, nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution. -Thomas Jefferson

Icemoon SG

This one is America. You think they care what a founding father of America think?

(human) SG

A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their magistrate. -Thomas Jefferson

We use truth and reason to counter falsehood.

Fatum SG

nice googling ....

but then again ... religion is inherently illogical .... it's more faith than reason ...

and that's what makes it frightening ... especially when the killing of "non-believers" can be so casually discussed ...

next ! ...

Icemoon SG

Haiyo .. the truth and reason is always found in their belief system .. not in yours or mine or Thomas Jefferson's.

So to denounce Osama .. you use the Quran and Hadith. You quote Islamic scholars. You don't quote Thomas Jefferson.

Isn't it the same case now?

MohamedF SG

http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=256400
this killing of "non-believers" is just a myth...

hisoka SG

truth and reason is subjective Laughing

anyway as siad religion is by definition illogical

(human) SG

Truth is truth, there are no international line. Isn't it?

Icemoon SG

what you quoted are not truths but opinions.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by Icemoon:

Your reply is very one-sided.

1. Catholic Christianity and Islam are not the oldest faiths in the history of mankind. The oldest practising faith should be Judaism. And Judaism does not encourage conversion of the spouse. The biblical precedent would be the case of Naomi who married an Israelite. When her husband died, the mother-in-law tried to discourage her from joining the ranks of Judaism.

2. While the offsprings are baptised as Catholics (I'm not sure whether this is compulsory or not), it does not mean they are Catholics when baptised. If they are, then the parents and Church are shoving the faith down the child's throat. The truth is the children need to go through confirmation at age 16 to be a professing Catholic.

3. I don't think if you backslide, they will ex-communicate you. They can't be bothered la .. haha

As a self-admitted Jew, you should be grateful that my ''reply is very one-sided'' - as I had left out Judaism in my critique to the odd practices of Catholicism and Islam.

If you are complaining that Judaism was left out when I had mentioned the Catholic and Islamic Religions as the oldest in the history of mankind, you should also note my 4th paragraph at the beginning of my post when I had mentioned the following:-

''Why will two of the oldest religions in the World - Islam and Catholicism - be so adamantly restrictive towards allowing its 'members' from leaving their respective congregation by renouncing their faith ? ''

In any case, it is very odd that while the Malaysian Politician will claim all kinds of Privileges and Rights for their Malay Race, they will 'EXCLUDE the Privileges and Rights to Religious Freedom' from the Malaysian Malays, but giving this Privilege and Right to the Chinese, Indians, Eurasians, and the ORIGINAL Bumiputras in the Native Tribesmen in Peninsular Malaysia, Sarawak and Sabah.

This is a sad day when all the other Malaysian Races mourn this loss of privilege and rights to their Malay Brothers and Sisters.

It is very ironical the convulted courses that Malaysian Politics take.

Icemoon SG

What self admitted Jew?

I eat char siew bao also you know ..

Icemoon SG

Singapore is the best man!

Even the must touted example of the United States is rife with religious lobbying.

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