MM Lee's talk about being extraordinary- truths or deception

last SG · 2007-04-30T20:50:15+00:00

I think this SGX case truly highlights the way things work in Singapore. If you are "talented" or are one of the elites, rules can be bent to suit your purp...

robertteh SG

Ramseth wrote:
roberttehkh wrote:
f PM Lee shows that he could be the de-facto PM and not be the shadow of MM Lee, he will do well.

If he carries on his own agenda without all the gerrymandering and legalistic wrangling and self-justifications by MM Lee and SM he will do well.

What say you?

If MM and SM are "retrenched", yes, sure, PM Lee will be (or at least seen to be) the true leader of the nation. However, the question is, can the PM hold his own and survive without MM and SM?

If not, then the nation can be in trouble, unless PAP has a ready successor to take over PM in case of such trouble.

What MM Lee said to youngpap at the recent forum is the same old stuff - Singapore needs talents and is not an ordinary country and the biggest mistake any Singaporean can make is to believe Singapore is an ordinary country.

Now we talk about his being extraordinary over the past 40 years.

Except for taxing and recovering all possible costs through corporatizing government services into GLCs resulting in taxes becoming redundant surpluses which leaders then claim as success, where are the practical knowledge applications or motivation of masses to become more competitive as an extraordinary country?

We are now after the world recovers from recent prolonged recessions seeing MM Lee talking again about his being extraordinary when he was lying low throughout the worse period without any solutions. Up to now he is still promoting a few ideas of his like his ministers being the most talented or deserving the highest salaries without producing any new Goh Keng Swee transformation or restructuring.

Where are the evidences and proofs to all his assumptions that the leadership or talents are now working and will take the 4.5 million population suffering from high costs due to his system out of the wood.

Is his being extraordinary an illusion or self-deception

user_0 SG

taxing and recovering all possible costscorporatizing government servicestaxes becoming redundant surpluses

Where are the practical knowledge applications or motivation of masses to become more competitive as an extraordinary country?

Motivating yourself to become competitive is up to you, not the government.

We are now after the world recovers from recent prolonged recessions seeing MM Lee talking again about his being extraordinary when he was lying low throughout the worse period without any solutions

Youre expecting the government to play the role of a nanny to shield you from the real world. I guess you must be disappointed that they didnt do that.

Up to now he is still promoting a few ideas of his like his ministers being the most talented or deserving the highest salaries without producing any new Goh Keng Swee transformation or restructuring.

These people are extraordinary, and you seem to think that they will always be there to serve
Chances are, you will not see another leader like Lee Kwan Yew, or Goh Keng Swee in the government ever.

4.5 million population suffering from high costs

Yes, like every other 4.5 million people, I am suffering from high costs for satisfying my craving of shopping

Atobe SG

MM Lee had said - and constantly repeated on CNA - that"the biggest mistake for Singaporeans is to believe that Singapore is an ordinary country, and can behave in ordinary ways...."

Is this any reason for him to behave in extra-ordinary ways like giving himself and his government the World's most extra-ordinary wages for ordinay men that he believe are extra-ordinary from all other ordinary Singaporeans ?

Is this any reason for his extra-ordinary actions that dates back to his personal insistence in joining Malaysia despite all the opinions against it ?

Is this any reason for his extra-ordinary doggedness in proceeding with the controversial 'Stop At 2' Family Planning policy despite sound objections, which he now dare claim to regret that 'it was a mistake' ?

Now that the extra-ordinay truths of some of his extra-ordinary past decisions - that were made against all the opposing voices - are now bearing heavy consequences to present day Singapore, is he now leaving Singapore with a bigger problem from a Government that is largely 'managed' by ordinary Men attracted by 'EXTRA-ORDINARY LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY' and not by EXTRA-ORDINARY Passion for Singapore ?

rane SG

AFter the unreasonable fat salary increment/adjustment he made such a statement. So is he trying to say Singapore is no ordinary country so they also have to get no ordinary pay?

walesa SG

If that were the case, then why can't legitimate trade unions representing every trade imaginable exist be free from political influence? I'm sure tonnes of people will be more than happy to pay for such union subscriptions to enjoy the protection they offer...

What constitutes the real world? Criminals paying themselves 4 times above the market rate for top leaders (and they can't even justify their worth as being the best in the business) in their industry is reflective of how the real world works?

maurizio13 SG

You don't see too much nepotism and inefficiencies???

I suppose you got hoodwinked by the non lineage succession devised by the puppet master? How do you explain other family members getting into prominent position in politics and other government businesses?

Inefficiencies is when you have 84 MPs for a population of 4.3 million, which is a ratio of 1 MP to 51,000 citizens. Whereas in other countries like the U.K., South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan, the ratio is 1 MP to 100,000 citizens. The rationale? To maintain a large pool of MPs so that the possibility of being out voted by opposition MPs is non existent. We used to have 55-56 MPs in the past.

Inefficiencies is when the job could be perform by someone with a salary of S$1 million a year, but instead the person wishes to be paid S$3 million.

Motivating yourself relies alot on the environment too, if you're environment is quicksand, all your struggles are futile.

When you vote in a CEO of a large multinational corporation (MNC), you would expect that CEO to outperform all the other MNCs in the competitive arena. Hence protect your investments from just getting an average return. Year after year, you hear your CEO tell you, that the profits are mediocre because of competition from globalisation. But you see other MNCs who are outperforming the market average. Something must really be wrong with your group of shareholders. A good CEO does not come up with lame excuses for his failure, a good CEO should be able to outperform the market average whatever the market conditions.

They serve alright, they serve their own self interest.

robertteh SG

:RTtaxing and recovering all possible costscorporatizing government servicestaxes becoming redundant surpluses

User_O:Thats what all governments do. You dont see too much corruption, nepotism and inefficiencies thats the characteristics of a good government. If you dont want to pay for the services other people rendered to you, then you are being unfair.

By dubious benchmarking salaries of ministers in the manner that was done witholding material information on hidden benefits like life-long pensions and double pays enjoyed by certain ministers without accountability to the taxpayers almost like writing their own pay cheque against the overwhelming objections of the people is our government honest, incorruptible and good?

RT:Where are the practical knowledge applications or motivation of masses to become more competitive as an extraordinary country?

User_O: Motivating yourself to become competitive is up to you, not the government.

What is the role of government ? Is it only to tax and recover all possible costs and hoarding taxes as surpluses for paying themselves the highest salaries?

The leaders have been talking for years about restructuring the economy since 1970s to a value-adding technology-driven economy.

To create such an economy, obviously it is inadequate to promote only the top talents. It is common sense the leaders themselves cannot accomplish much by only talking about their policies and ideas or assumptions.

They have to motivate people, an essential ingredient of successful companies like the Fortune 500 to get the masses to apply their practical knowledge and skills.

But no our leaders do not bother with motivating people. Instead they have been too self-centred in promoting only themselves including paying themselves the highest salaries and getting away with negligence in NKF and Shin Corp or Nicol Highway collapse with constant denials of problems.

Without practising EQ or motivational corporate governance their many policies including economic restructuring could not work and achieve results. Their many workers' re-training schemes have failed as admitted by Spring in their seminars on workers' trainings.

It is therefore a fact that the leaders have indeed miserably failed to bring about the necessary motivational changes badly needed to bring about a competitive economy.

RT:We are now after the world recovers from recent prolonged recessions seeing MM Lee talking again about his being extraordinary when he was lying low throughout the worse period without any solutions

User: Youre expecting the government to play the role of a nanny to shield you from the real world. I guess you must be disappointed that they didnt do that.

No body wants the government to interfere in citizens' personal rights and freedoms with the 2-child policy and graduate mother policy. It is MM Lee who has elected himself to be the nanny with his autocratic style as people do not expect him to be nanny. By his autocracy he is unable to motivate the people towards working closely with his government for years and he should know this himself why people are not pulling in the same direction and good people are migrating in large number if he has any sense of proportion.

RT:Up to now he is still promoting a few ideas of his like his ministers being the most talented or deserving the highest salaries without producing any new Goh Keng Swee transformation or restructuring.

User: These people are extraordinary, and you seem to think that they will always be there to serve
Chances are, you will not see another leader like Lee Kwan Yew, or Goh Keng Swee in the government ever.

If the scholars he has put up indeed have worked they should have restructured the economy with some major transformation over the past 20 years. Nothing much has been accomplished. Three economic restructuring plans announced during the recessions have so far not produced the desired results namely: value-adding technology-driven economy talked about for years.

:4.5 million population suffering from high costs

User: Yes, like every other 4.5 million people, I am suffering from high costs for satisfying my craving of shopping

Whether the ordinary people are getting better as compared with the early 1980s, it is all too clear for all to see. The failure to upgrade the restructure the economy is largely the result of self-centred system of government which only benefit the holding on to power of the ruling party and its few elites.

caleb_chiang SG

Originally posted by Atobe:
MM Lee had said - and constantly repeated on CNA - that"the biggest mistake for Singaporeans is to believe that Singapore is an ordinary country, and can behave in ordinary ways...."

Is this any reason for him to behave in extra-ordinary ways like giving himself and his government the World's most extra-ordinary wages for ordinay men that he believe are extra-ordinary from all other ordinary Singaporeans ?

Is this any reason for his extra-ordinary actions that dates back to his personal insistence in joining Malaysia despite all the opinions against it ?

Is this any reason for his extra-ordinary doggedness in proceeding with the controversial [b]'Stop At 2' Family Planning policy despite sound objections, which he now dare claim to regret that 'it was a mistake' ?

Now that the extra-ordinay truths of some of his extra-ordinary past decisions - that were made against all the opposing voices - are now bearing heavy consequences to present day Singapore, is he now leaving Singapore with a bigger problem from a Government that is largely 'managed' by ordinary Men attracted by 'EXTRA-ORDINARY LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY' and not by EXTRA-ORDINARY Passion for Singapore ?

[/b]

Laughing

Yeah... extra-ordinary stupid if we keep on believing what had been said.

reyes SG

Thats what all governments do. You dont see too much corruption, nepotism and inefficiencies thats the characteristics of a good government. If you dont want to pay for the services other people rendered to you, then you are being unfair.

MM lee say if we dont pay them top salary, they will corrupt. mind you that SGD1.2million. your corruption free minister are bought at SGD1.6million . a paycheck they write themselves dispite public outcry.
your definition of good govt is such?? then you are being unfair to the rest of singaporeans.

i dont think any indonesia minister would even corrupt if they are paid $300k/yr.

soulwinner SG

So? Very Happy

soulwinner SG

I don't thin you mkake thsi comment if you are one of them? Mr. Green

Atobe SG

If any Government in the World that deserves any EXTRA-ORDINARY Wage Increment, it will have to tbe poorly paid Government of the People's Republic of China.

From a backward economy, it has now managed the economic development of the country without inflation getting out of hand, keeping political stability, maintaining high social welfare, health, and education standards, and becoming the only Country in the World with the largest Foreign Exchange Reserves that amount to over US$1 Trillion.

Considering China's size in population and land mass, the diverse ethnicity with different cultural and language nuances, the Central Government has performed fairly well in maintaining law and order, and improve the general quality of Life for nearly everyone.

The Central Government - from the President, Prime Minister, and the Party Secretary-General and every member of the Cabinet and Party Executive Committee - are all committed to a public declaration that the Citizen's Welfare is the highest priority of the State.

This acceptance of social responsibility to the Citizens of a country by a poorly paid PRC Government Ministers and Officials, is in stark contrast to the Singapore Government that is paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS from taxes levied on the hard pressed Singaporeans, and yet will have a PM daring to declare that it is not the Government's job to find employment for every Singaporean, and a Cabinet Miniister stating that 'in Singapore there is no free Lunch'.

Global impact
Katherine Ng
Monday, March 26, 2007

With its foreign reserves now the world's largest, China will further increase its influence when its planned agency for foreign currency management starts operations this year with an initial expected sum of US$200 billion (HK$1,560 trillion).

As the second-largest holder of US- denominated assets, just behind Japan, China intends to minimize its exposure to risk from the US dollar depreciating against the yuan by diversifying its foreign currency holdings.

After China's February trade surplus rose to US$23.8 billion, the economy's forex holdings, which stood at US$1.07 trillion by end of 2006, surged to be the highest in the world.

Premier Wen Jiabao, during the annual parliamentary session early this month, admitted most of China's reserves were in US Treasury bonds and other US-denominated assets.

Wen gave assurances that the country has no intention of making rapid changes in holdings of US dollar assets which would destabilize world markets.

The early February crash in world markets, following the one-day 9 percent fall in mainland benchmark indexes, showed that the Chinese economy has a crucial influence.

US dollar depreciation against the yuan was the major reason China is setting up the agency.

"The depreciation of the US dollar has been eroding its forex reserves. The government needs to manage its assets better," a Beijing economist said.

The Government of Singapore Invest-ment Corp, set up by the island's government in the 1970s, is an example of managing excess foreign currency reserves through long-term investment to generate higher returns.

Another example is the world's fifth-largest oil exporter, Norway. Its US$292 billion global pension fund has invested all oil revenues abroad to prevent the domestic economy from overheating, with the long-term goal of paying for future pensions.

In order to increase investment returns and diversify risk, economists and market observers have recommended the agency should broaden its investment scope from focusing on low-yield US Treasuries to equities and other alternatives, which have higher yields, but higher risks.

"The agency should invest overseas in equity and commodities markets," said Stephen Green, senior economist at Standard Chartered Bank.

He said the agency could hire overseas managers to run part of the funds. This is how Hong Kong's Foreign Exchange Fund and even the mainland's National Social Security Fund operate, mandating part of the fund to certain professionals in designated areas like fixed-income or equity markets.

Ha Jiming, an economist at China International Capital Corp, citing Singa-pore's GIC, believes the new agency will diversify into investments ranging through stocks, bonds, money market instruments, and direct equity holdings, to real estate.

The California Public Employees' Retirement System, or Calpers, the world's biggest pension fund, may be a good example to study.

"A large portion of our money invested in stocks is 'passively managed.' We are long-term investors - we buy and hold," the fund's board said on their official Web site. "We do maintain some active equity management and have contracted with a group of US and international money managers with expertise in specialized areas."

This pension fund, with assets of US$232.5 billion, has developed diversified strategies in international and domestic markets with an asset allocation of about 60 percent in equities, 26 percent in fixed income, 8 percent in real estate and 6 percent in direct investment.

Compared with the low US Treasury yield of about 3 percent, Calpers' total return in the fiscal year ending January was about 11.96 percent, while its three-year and five- year returns were 13.05 percent and 10.66 percent, respectively.

Although the new forex agency still needs time to finalize its constitution, former vice finance minister Lou Jiwei has been appointed to head it, after being promoted to vice secretary general of the State Council, the immediate supervisory body of the agency.

This structure is based on the Singapore model, including both Temasek and GIC, with the Monetary Authority of Singapore-supervised Temasek holding the state-owned assets for the government and investing in overseas sectors, while the government directly holds GIC, which manages the island's forex reserves by investing actively in overseas and domestic equity and money markets.

The size of the fund to be managed by the new agency is a state secret, but it is common belief the fund will start with US$200 billion, about a fifth of the existing forex reserves.

This is larger than Dubai's pension fund. "We estimate China needs a normal forex reserve of US$800 billion at most to meet its liquidity needs. Thus, as much as US$200 to US$300 billion could be placed under the management of the state forex investment company," Ha said.

The new agency will source its base funds either through direct transfer from the State Administration of Foreign Ex- change or by issuing bonds to tap the central bank, and through commercial bank subscription, Green and Ha said.

"Raising yuan through issuing yuan- denominated bonds in the interbank market and swaps with the central bank for foreign currency are the most probable," Green said in his recent report.

At least China will not run the State Reserves as anyone's Private Asset, with sons and daughter-in-law roped in to help run the Enterprise.

If anyone were to lose $3 Billion in China, we will certainly get to see heads rolling, unlike in Singapore where embarrassing matters quietly fizzle out, and the ashes swept under the carpet - while the Citizens continue to be financially and politically abused by the State.

robertteh SG

without him, Singaporeans are still living in kampongs in attap houses, easily fire gutted.

without him, female Singaporeans still working as maids,males as chauffeur.

without him, there are curfews between malay and chinese.

without him, there is no harmony between races....

i doubt he will retire for good, he can't rest in peace.

Despite what he had done, which to him are a great deal, people are struggling to live their lives with their dropping wages and all kinds of profiteering by the government.

Why has he failed to solve such problems?

Because he is too self-centred, he only knows how to govern by taxing and double taxing and profiteering from the people.

By such a system taxes are being accumulated as surpluses which he claims as success for rewarding his own elites.

He has been found to be without objective and passion in truly serving the people. If he has the objectives and passions, he would have treated people as his customers or stakeholders and passed all laws to facilitate his people in attaining their social cohesion and developing their cultural vibrancy to bring about a greater society.

Instead he has used his political power to tweak and change laws and regulations in a hypocritic manner. He was able to use excuses like the need to ensure racial harmony to change the single election constituency and one-man-one-vote election procedure to block representation to prevent single candidates from being elected and ensure he and his party is always re-elected with no contest.

He has failed to run the government with accountability and transparency in appointments of key personnel of government with many top positions filled by his own chosen few without debates or discussions in parliament by voting.

He has used the judiciary by appointing his own connection to key position and resorted to rely on the lack of clarity in civil defamation law by suing political oppositions for any slightest remarks made in filling of an election form or about wrongs in the course of electioneering.

The above-stated are his talents he has shown in the running of the country.

Sagara SG

Blah... Give me a Death Note. I've had enough.

Evil or Very Mad

reyes SG

I don't thin you mkake thsi comment if you are one of them?

i 'm not and i wont. that why i make this comment.
what yours? if you have any to contribute.

robertteh SG

Crystal:
A lot of people are complaining about this, complaining about that. In case you don't know, there are many "poor" people not working. The job market is robust, civil service are hiring those with lower educational qualifications than "O" level. If Singaporeans are so poor, why do I see so many privately owned cars on the road and students wearing branded clothing, carring handphones and owning so many video games. The government only don't want to publish the percentage of the "lazy" to save face as it reflects badly on the country. If you were lazy and didn't study and then became lazy at work and lie and cheat through life, it is your own doing.

In fact, if the welfarism measure backfires, I would suggest to the government to scrap the entire system. If you don't own in private property and don't know anything about financial planning and continue buying goods with no value and repeatedly spend your money on lottery, that is your own problem.

So many people are at the MRT everyday and loittering around.

In fact, I rather see criminals than laziness in Singapore. It is a job creation process for the police force too.

If you want to be rich, jolly well go and earn your own money.

Is laziness worse than ministers taking more taxpayers' monies for themselves even against the strongest objections of the people?

If ministers have such low morality do they still have the right to lecture Alpha-S pilots for asking for more salaries?

By such conduct how are our leaders going to set as good example for the future generation to build a corruption-free society where people will try to live a honest and students in school will become good future citizens.

Do their ruling party elites still have the moral right to lead and comment on social problems like people's laziness?

will4 SG

He claimed that 80% of local not able to migrate but what about the remainder 20%? DO these 20% of local considered talents?

drawer SG

I believe is his self-deception.Lee Kuan Yew already old n senile n he was going to die soon.So dont take his word too seriously. Mr. Green

rane SG

Originally posted by reyes:
[b]Thats what all governments do. You dont see too much corruption, nepotism and inefficiencies thats the characteristics of a good government. If you dont want to pay for the services other people rendered to you, then you are being unfair.

MM lee say if we dont pay them top salary, they will corrupt. mind you that SGD1.2million. your corruption free minister are bought at SGD1.6million . a paycheck they write themselves dispite public outcry.
your definition of good govt is such?? then you are being unfair to the rest of singaporeans.

i dont think any indonesia minister would even corrupt if they are paid $300k/yr.

[/b]

Don't pay top salary, they will corrupt - then I say they are in the wrong job. Anybody who is thinking to enter politics should not have this thinking that if they are not paid when they will corrupt. If they have this thinking, they are not fit to be ruling the country. Character and motive are questionable? Embarassed Rolling Eyes Mr. Green

user_0 SG

Welsea: If that were the case, then why can't legitimate trade unions representing every trade imaginable exist be free from political influence? I'm sure tonnes of people will be more than happy to pay for such union subscriptions to enjoy the protection they offer...

I am not sure how unionism is linked to the topic Anyway, I disagree with trade unions primarily because I am convinced that free-market provides the fairest value to the labor. My opinion is that there are just too many disadvantages in unionizing the labor to justify it

Welsea: What constitutes the real world? Criminals paying themselves 4 times above the market rate for top leaders (and they can't even justify their worth as being the best in the business) in their industry is reflective of how the real world works?

You are not answering the issue. We were discussing the role of government in shielding its citizen against economic depressions. Now you brought in the issue of pay. I havent formed my opinion on the ministers pay. Frankly, I dont know what pay is fair. But you seem to be rather sure that the pay is unfair, because you are already labeling them as criminals.

(Maurizio)You don't see too much nepotism and inefficiencies???

No, really, I dont.

(Maurizio) I suppose you got hoodwinked by the non lineage succession devised by the puppet master? How do you explain other family members getting into prominent position in politics and other government businesses?

Lets put it this way, if they are capable people, should you disqualify them just because of family ties? To me, nepotism is when the person is incompetent, and yet put into a position of power because of family ties, and then he/she screws up big time because of being incompetent.

(Maurizio) Inefficiencies is when you have 84 MPs for a population of 4.3 million, which is a ratio of 1 MP to 51,000 citizens. Whereas in other countries like the U.K., South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan, the ratio is 1 MP to 100,000 citizens. The rationale? To maintain a large pool of MPs so that the possibility of being out voted by opposition MPs is non existent. We used to have 55-56 MPs in the past.
Inefficiencies is when the job could be perform by someone with a salary of S$1 million a year, but instead the person wishes to be paid S$3 million.

I really cant comment on what you say. Im ambivalent on the ministers pay increase, and I take a wait-and-see stance on that issue. You seem to be pretty sure that because of these two reasons, the government is inefficient. Well, the prevailing view in the world is that Singapore has an efficient government. In fact, Singapore government has been so successful, it is being observed and emulated by many countries in the world.

(Maurizio) Motivating yourself relies alot on the environment too, if you're environment is quicksand, all your struggles are futile.

The environment you refer to is the societal environment. You can put the blame on the society. You can even blame the government for that. You are probably right too Fine, now that you know that you live in an environment that is difficult to motivate yourself, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to shake your head, admit your fate, stand down and blame it on others?

(Maurizio) When you vote in a CEO of a large multinational corporation (MNC), you would expect that CEO to outperform all the other MNCs in the competitive arena. Hence protect your investments from just getting an average return. Year after year, you hear your CEO tell you, that the profits are mediocre because of competition from globalisation. But you see other MNCs who are outperforming the market average. Something must really be wrong with your group of shareholders. A good CEO does not come up with lame excuses for his failure, a good CEO should be able to outperform the market average whatever the market conditions.

The last time I looked at Singapores historical economic growth, unemployment rate, GDP, standard of living etc., it was doing well. Well, I just dont know how you come to a conclusion that Singapores growth is anything short of spectacular

I will reply to Robert next time...