PAP moves to counter criticism of party, govt in cyberspace

last SG · 2007-02-03T11:48:43+00:00

I think they are most welcome to lurk and read what people thinks of PAP and their policies. But if they are lurking and waiting for opportunities to penali...

stupidissmart SG

Your statement "If someone is worth S$100,000.00 pm why should he accept S$20,000.00 pm is just an assumption.

There is no guarantee that Durai was worth higher than S$600,000.00 pa at the material time so please do not assume he is when he and his board committed those wrongs as found in the court judgment.

Ahh... but u also make the same assumption tat the minister r pretty lousy and can only find a, lets say $2,000 job outside ? Why don't we just see the system instead of the people. Do u agree tat the job of a minister is either equivalent or close to the job of a CEO of a MNC company ? If the pay is lousy, the people who can get $100,000 outside will not join as minister because they r donating a 80% salary donation to the country. Rolling Eyes If the pay is equvalent, then it is likely people who have talent to run as CEO will consider joining as minister. At least we can be sure tat there will be more candidates interested than giving 20,000 in the post and thus able to pick the better man for the job. The system can get better qualified people to turn the economy u desire isn't it ?

robertteh SG

NKF revealed many malpractices one of which is the claim that it is peanut to pay its CEO S$600,000.00 pa not to mention the several months of bonuses.

This malpractice could have been encouraged by the assumption you have clearly made that in order to encourage good and talented people, government must pay such an amount of salaries to ministers, MPs as and civil servants as to prevent corruption.

There are many flaws in such an assumptions which rest essentially on comparison of the highest pays of bosses in the private business world as many of them are capitalist investors who reward themselves highly from their own business profits or own monies which in a down time could turn into quick losses.

The ministers are mostly in charge of straightforward passing and administration of laws and regulations and collections of monies and spending them without any worry about source of funds. This was acknowledged by none other than ex-senior civil servant like Mr. Ngiam Tong Dow after his retirement and assuming the post of ceo of HDB Corp.

They are not entrepreneurs in the private sector who are able to push up their pays by comparing with the highest and not being accountable to their shareholders for lack of performance or mistakes like our ministers such as in NKF or Shin Corp/

So if one has to make comparison one will have to be balance and objective and honest and not go about making comparison in such an artful and dubious manner.

Iaococca is another example of a private sector CEO who understands such a predicament of benefits and reward system. He gave up his CEO pay during the period Chrysler was in financial crisis to show that if he wants to be talented and be paid high salaries he must be answerable for performance.

I am sure I have by now shown you that it is only an assumption that in order to attract talents we must pay the highest salaries equivalent to The bosses of legal firms, stock companies and all the investor category of private sector CEO. There is no end to such comparison as our MM Lee might well next make comparison with salaries of Bill Gates and Sim Wong Hoo who are extremely creative in their entrepreneurship and deserve all their reward whereas public sector employees or public officers are only in charge of passing laws and collecting monies.

At the most our ministers should be benchmarked to the best governed country's leaders from among the successful economies like the Korean or Finland or the best-run public organizations in charge of collecting and spending monies from members or subscribers.

stupidissmart SG

If I do not read wrongly, the point above just state tat Durai act in such a way because he is "following" gov lead in pay taking. But then again wat does tis have to do with whether the gov is corrupted or not ? Durai is being sued and charged now isn't it ?

There are many flaws in such an assumptions which rest essentially on comparison of the highest pays of bosses in the private business world as many of them are capitalist investors who reward themselves highly from their own business profits or own monies which in a down time could turn into quick losses.

Do they compared themselves with the highest pays of bosses ? Furthermore the pay for some CEO is fixed and whether the company decline or not, he still get his pay. Doesn't the ministers get a pay cut when the economy is faltering ?

They are not entrepreneurs in the private sector who are able to push up their pays by comparing with the highest and not being accountable to their shareholders for lack of performance or mistakes like our ministers such as in NKF or Shin Corp/

Lack of performance ? Mistakes ? Whether shin corp, in the long run, will fail is sill not confirmed yet. Overall for the year they still make more profit then the losses so should they get fired for making profit ? NKF has nothing to do with the Gov. It is not even gov linked.

Iaococca is another example of a private sector CEO who understands such a predicament of benefits and reward system. He gave up his CEO pay during the period Chrysler was in financial crisis to show that if he wants to be talented and be paid high salaries he must be answerable for performance.

U see, he is a classic example but u can't expect everyone to follow him. He does not do wat common CEO will do. Mother Teresa went to africa to help the needy so does it means every nuns have to go to africa ?

I am sure I have by now shown you that it is only an assumption that in order to attract talents we must pay the highest salaries equivalent to The bosses of legal firms, stock companies and all the investor category of private sector CEO. There is no end to such comparison as our MM Lee might well next make comparison with salaries of Bill Gates and Sim Wong Hoo who are extremely creative in their entrepreneurship and deserve all their reward whereas public sector employees or public officers are only in charge of passing laws and collecting monies.

Again u have no specifically answer my queries on the point

If the pay is equvalent, then it is likely people who have talent to run as CEO will consider joining as minister. At least we can be sure tat there will be more candidates interested than giving 20,000 in the post and thus able to pick the better man for the job. The system can get better qualified people to turn the economy u desire isn't it ?

Realistically speaking, people r moltivated by money. U can't deny tis fact. Pay peanuts and we get monkeys.

At the most our ministers should be benchmarked to the best governed country's leaders from among the successful economies like the Korean or Finland or the best-run public organizations in charge of collecting and spending monies from members or subscribers.

Minister, if I am not wrong, r picked from candidate with a good track record. And they have a much higher population than singapore and singaporean r particularly fixed on the idea of meritocracy and money. As said, if u have a choice to work for CEO of HP for 100,000 a month, will u drop your pay to 20,000 to work as a minister ? Most people here will say no.

(human) SG

The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what is gain. -Confucius

Moltivate by money? The people don't need such people to serve them. Pay peanuts i don't see it will only invite monkey. Rolling Eyes

Originally posted by stupidissmart:

Minister, if I am not wrong, r picked from candidate with a good track record. And they have a much higher population than singapore and singaporean r particularly fixed on the idea of meritocracy and money. As said, if u have a choice to work for CEO of HP for 100,000 a month, will u drop your pay to 20,000 to work as a minister ? Most people here will say no.

You yourself admitted that most people don't some will. We want those Some people not most people. Soil is more than gold which one is more precious?

stupidissmart SG

Moltivate by money? The people don't need such people to serve them. Pay peanuts i don't see it will only invite monkey

With a lower pay, r we gonna get capable people for the job. I believe more people will apply if the pay is better and a better candidate can be chosen. Notice tat politics is still nevertheless a job. So if u get a $100,000 job now will u go to help gov and take a $20,000 job ? If u have $3000 dollar job now will u get a paycut and apply for a $1500 job to help gov ?

You yourself admitted that most people don't some will. We want those Some people not most people. Soil is more than gold which one is more precious?

Given lesser candidate to choose from, the people chosen is likely not to be capable and the country will implement lousy policy. Then overall the whole country suffers. Ideal and realistic situation differs.

will4 SG

Some of the problem such as subsidized HDB loan, how come it is so difficult for Sporean to obtain?

(human) SG

You telling me all ministers in other countries who are getting pay around peanut are not as good as local?

stupidissmart SG

Some of the problem such as subsidized HDB loan, how come it is so difficult for Sporean to obtain?

I don't understand why u r addressing the question to me... I am not from the gov Rolling Eyes If I am from the gov I will not be debating in religious topics.

Anyway I try to help u if u want

I do not understand if I get your question correctly

http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10201p.nsf/WPDis/Buying%20A%20New%20HDB%20Flat%20(e-Sales)Policies%20-%20Housing%20Loan%20from%20HDB?OpenDocument&SubMenu=Policies#Eligibility%20Conditions%20for%20Housing%20Loans%20from%20HDB

You can obtain a housing loan from HDB when you and/or the essential occupiers:

(i) have not enjoyed two or more concessionary interest rate mortgage loans previously. This is regardless of whether the previous loans were for buying flats directly from HDB or from the open market;

(ii) have enjoyed one concessionary interest rate mortgage loan and one housing subsidy previously and buying a flat of a type that is bigger than your current flat or the flat you last owned (if you currently do not own an HDB flat);

(iii) have enjoyed one concessionary interest rate mortgage loan and one housing subsidy previously and the property you last disposed off is not a private residential property;

(iv) does not own two or more owner-operated market/hawker stalls or any commercial/industrial property inside or out of Singapore;

(v) own one market/hawker stall or commercial/industrial property and operate the business yourself;

(vi) do not own any private residential property inside or out of Singapore.

so generally if u r a normal guy, u properly can get the loan...

robertteh SG

quote:NKF revealed many malpractices one of which is the claim that it is peanut to pay its CEO S$600,000.00 pa not to mention the several months of bonuses.

This malpractice could have been encouraged by the assumption you have clearly made that in order to encourage good and talented people, government must pay such an amount of salaries to ministers, MPs as and civil servants as to prevent corruption.

Stupidissmart:

If I do not read wrongly, the point above just state tat Durai act in such a way because he is "following" gov lead in pay taking. But then again wat does tis have to do with whether the gov is corrupted or not ? Durai is being sued and charged now isn't it ?

It could not be such a pure coincidence that while the ministers were pushing pushing their own salaries from S$600,000.00 for the PM in 1970s t0 S$2,000,000.00 pa by the 11990s today Mr. Durai of NKF has also been pushing up his own salaries with the tacit support of the government patron from S$120,000.00 pa to S$600,000.00 pa during this same period/

There is a common saying: "monkey sees monkey does." So I cannot accept your contention that NKF wrong doings in self-rewarding themselves was not connected to the government/

If anyone were to question Mr. Durai's peanut pay at that time while Ministers are voting to pay themselves the highest salaries benchmarked against the successful CEOs and entrepreneurs in the private sector, I don't think any one among our civil servants or ministers would ever have the gut to question Mr. Durai's peanut pay.

However in the light of the public outrage, and the mass withdrawal of public donation, government has no alternative but was forced to admit the problem and hence the present court case against durai and the conspiring board.

This is a good evidence to show that the minister in charge has failed in his duty to oversea the charity organization to safeguard against such self-rewards and malpractices.

It is not a case of government taking its own action on wrong doings in NKF but it was a case of being forced by public outrage to do so. I would correct your assumption that government has taken its own actions to correct wrong doings and malpractices.

It may just happen that our investments of public funds in other government agencies and ministries are so as accountable or transparent as the government claims because citizens have no access to information/

Citizens look forward after NKF to ask Temasek and GIC to show us their decision making process in investing public monies in shin corp and global crossing.

quote:There are many flaws in such an assumptions which rest essentially on comparison of the highest pays of bosses in the private business world as many of them are capitalist investors who reward themselves highly from their own business profits or own monies which in a down time could turn into quick losses.

Stupidissmart:-

Do they compared themselves with the highest pays of bosses ? Furthermore the pay for some CEO is fixed and whether the company decline or not, he still get his pay. Doesn't the ministers get a pay cut when the economy is faltering ?

The specific benching of ministers' pays against the highest earners in the private business sector is flawed and I do not see how you could explain it is not point by point to what I have posted before on this topic in several posts.

The in-principle concept that we must pay ministers the highest pays to prevent corruption is the same argument that to prevent a murder, we ought to pay potential murderer ransom or blackmail monies.

PM of Malaysia Mr. Balawi in reply to MM Lee's advice to pay their ministers higher salaries was: We believe that ministers must have integrity ...not to ask for such higher pays to which MM Lee could not reply up to today. So your view that ministers must be paid the higher or highest pays to attract talents or prevent corruptions cannot be borne out in practice neither on talents which were not proven to this day nor on integrity issue.

quote:They are not entrepreneurs in the private sector who are able to push up their pays by comparing with the highest and not being accountable to their shareholders for lack of performance or mistakes like our ministers such as in NKF or Shin Corp/

Stupidissmart:

Lack of performance ? Mistakes ? Whether shin corp, in the long run, will fail is sill not confirmed yet. Overall for the year they still make more profit then the losses so should they get fired for making profit ? NKF has nothing to do with the Gov. It is not even gov linked.

NKF is a by-product of our money-worshipping system where on the one hand government believes in no-free lunch but its ministers keep taking monies for themselves against the principle of accountability or good corporate governance.

Because of the consequent tax-and-recover system of government adopted by the government, Durai was able to exploit on the ministers need to encourage public donations to take care of medically terminal patients and Durai ended up practically supported by the highest authority to do as he likes with the tacit support of the highest level.

So I cannot agree with your contention that NKF has nothing to do with the government and government should be excused from the wrongs committed with the encouragement of the government at the highest level. (see my other posts on breach of codes of conduct by ministers on this matter)

quote:Iaococca is another example of a private sector CEO who understands such a predicament of benefits and reward system. He gave up his CEO pay during the period Chrysler was in financial crisis to show that if he wants to be talented and be paid high salaries he must be answerable for performance.

Stupidissmart:

U see, he is a classic example but u can't expect everyone to follow him. He does not do wat common CEO will do. Mother Teresa went to africa to help the needy so does it means every nuns have to go to africa ?

If our ministers have been promoting themselves as the world's best and deserving to be rewarded the world's highest salaries for bill collections, then you cannot say that they should be exempted from the iaccocca moral and EQ exemplary self-restraints to lead by example.

quote:I am sure I have by now shown you that it is only an assumption that in order to attract talents we must pay the highest salaries equivalent to The bosses of legal firms, stock companies and all the investor category of private sector CEO. There is no end to such comparison as our MM Lee might well next make comparison with salaries of Bill Gates and Sim Wong Hoo who are extremely creative in their entrepreneurship and deserve all their reward whereas public sector employees or public officers are only in charge of passing laws and collecting monies. [/quote]

I am sure no matter how MM Lee will try to argue in an international context he cannot justify his benchmarking of ministers' highest pays to be on par with the highest rewards to any wage earners in the private business sector.

However because the media is under the control of the government there is no option but for the citizens to swallow such a artful one-sided conflict-of-interest wrong doing.

stupidissmart SG

Common people will choose the higher pay. Superior people cannot be judge by this manner. Yes, higher pay will give you bigger pool of people for selection, but it does not mean you will sure get good people for the job. You might attract greedy people as well. It takes a wise to know another wise man.

Superior man... Tis superior may be morally superior but performance wise it is different. Rolling Eyes Mother teresa is a superior man who do not care for money but do u think she can be a good president ? U might say greedy people apply for the job but then in the world of capitalism, money is the reason why men work.

You telling me all ministers in other countries who are getting pay around peanut are not as good as local?

No, I am just saying u give more money u got more choices. And I also state tat other country got more people compared with singapore. And u can't say if they give more money to the minister there, they won't get better candidate.

robertteh SG

You said you are not the government then are you replying to all these questions in the previous posts.

If you want to help government to reply to criticism i.e. cyber-counter the public opinions given in the cyberspace why are you shy to admit that you are the government agent sent to counter cyber opinions/

Let us not be dishonest about our intent and stand. I do give my ID in these exchange of views but you dare not reveal yours.

Then I suggest you refer these views you disagree with to the minister who could reply instead of assuming policies and reasoning for the government in your counter posts. If the ministers could reply and substantiate that HDB has not only given a discount but subsidised on public housing truly with accountable facts and figures, I would say that he would be a good talent.

But it looks like for now ministers dare not open up and reply to people's criticism except by proxies like the anonymous cyber-agents.

This fact speaks volumes for the quality of the ministers that we do have.

We would like to see how ministers could come to rebut the people's criticism that it is profiteering on public housing and its transfer to original HDB loan system to the private banker loans is against the spirit of the setting up of public housing authority called HDB.

The about-turn on low cost public housing in order to keep taxing and profiteering has today caused one of the biggest problems ever to citizens in human history.

stupidissmart SG

I think tat is mere speculation. Just because the gov increase their pay doesn't means durai increases his with the support of the gov. And the patron of NKF is not a gov officer herself, if I catch wat u r trying to say. It is just like saying just because oil price rises that is why durai increase his pay. It is totally mutually independent events. As said, NKF is not a gov linked company. Why do u want to link them together ?

There is a common saying: "monkey sees monkey does." So I cannot accept your contention that NKF wrong doings in self-rewarding themselves was not connected to the government/

Neh... these monkeys openly declared their pay raise and never dubiously get back pay. If Durai do tat and openly publicise his pay then he is totally fine.

If anyone were to question Mr. Durai's peanut pay at that time while Ministers are voting to pay themselves the highest salaries benchmarked against the successful CEOs and entrepreneurs in the private sector, I don't think any one among our civil servants or ministers would ever have the gut to question Mr. Durai's peanut pay.

Again it is simply assumptions which u match here and there. It never happens and anyone can say watever he like

This is a good evidence to show that the minister in charge has failed in his duty to oversea the charity organization to safeguard against such self-rewards and malpractices

NKF is not gov linked and they admit they drive out a MOH official in the meetings and keeping her in the dark. DO u want all charity to be run completely by the gov ?

It may just happen that our investments of public funds in other government agencies and ministries are so as accountable or transparent as the government claims because citizens have no access to information/

How transparent do u want it to be Rolling Eyes How transparent r the other countries ?

Citizens look forward after NKF to ask Temasek and GIC to show us their decision making process in investing public monies in shin corp and global crossing.

If they ask citizens for opinion before buying shincorp, investors all will be buying shincorp shares, driving up price and singapore can then stop considering the buyout and any decision liao.

I thought it is already done Rolling Eyes

PM of Malaysia Mr. Balawi in reply to MM Lee's advice to pay their ministers higher salaries was: We believe that ministers must have integrity ...not to ask for such higher pays to which MM Lee could not reply up to today.

Wat reply fo u think LKY should answer and not get a potential backlash ? He offer advise, he don't take, tat is it. U think he should argue and force Balawi to accept it ?

So your view that ministers must be paid the higher or highest pays to attract talents or prevent corruptions cannot be borne out in practice neither on talents which were not proven to this day nor on integrity issue.

I don't think u have answer why increasing the pay does not ensure more people will become potential candidate and have better people to select.

About corruption, I believe your measures of givng money to murderer is wrong, but preventing people from carrying weopons on the streets, detering murders by giving death sentence and arming police with powers and guns help to reduce murder. With the right measures certain social ills can be diminished. I do not know about u but haven't u heard tat the policemen from the poorer region get less pay and thus r more inclined to be corrupted ?

Every country worship money, gov get a good pay but why does it means NKF is a by product of such matters Rolling Eyes If by your theory then all the charity organisation in singapore and all the companies should be corrupted as well. U and I r corrupted as well.

1)NKF corrupted,
2) meritocracy as an objective of the country
3)and gov minister have high pay

all r mutually independent relationships

Because of the consequent tax-and-recover system of government adopted by the government, Durai was able to exploit on the ministers need to encourage public donations to take care of medically terminal patients and Durai ended up practically supported by the highest authority to do as he likes with the tacit support of the highest level.

I think tis is groundless accusations as well. All cities collect taxes and all gov encourage people to donate to public donations. So all charity organisation r all corrupted ? And why does gov encouraging people to donate means they r encouraging durai to be corrupted ? It totally made no sense. Again

1) Taxes to the people in the city
2) gov encourage donations
3) Durai corrupted

they all r mutually independent relationship as well. So do u expect gov not to ask for any tax or gov tell people not to donate to charity ?

Then why don't u name me a politician who get no pay while he is in office ? If u say tat way, then there r many countries where situation is worse than singapore and they should not get any pay for their whole life. Let me ask u, why don't u work without pay for the gov then ? Tat means u have 0 total income for many years.

BTW chrysler is still losing money and have to consider selling to GM. Big help it does

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/259079/1/.html

spinsugar SG

I think it's typically arrogant and ignorant of the PAP to send their running dogs to "counter" (aka dismiss) criticism in cyberspace.

The govt is so quick to call us cowards for supposedly hiding behind internet anonymity.. yet they themselves now employ this "cowardly" method, what's more with 2 layers of anonymity - 1- by replying to its citizens thru 3rd parties, and 2 - disguising these 3rd parties as ordinary netizens. What hypocrisy. Rolling Eyes What ignorance, for them not to foresee that their half-baked strategy would backfire. Their dogs stick out like sore thumbs with their pro-PAP "templates".

If they agree that the issues we've put forward are such a cause for worry, they should do the right thing any democratic government with an inch of integrity should do - which is to address the citizens directly on a more public platform.. instead of sending their heavenly dogs down to offer us peons a sample of their 'immortal wisdom' while suppressing our voice in the public media. Rolling Eyes

stupidissmart SG

Because simply put I am NOT a gov agent Rolling Eyes If I am a gov agent, I will not post religion sensitive arguments in my other threads. How do u want me to convince u ? I am just pro-minority in a forum. Tat means I like to debate on the unpopular stand in a forum. Furthermore I have been in tis forum for donkey years, and I seldom discuss politics in these last few years. If I am a gov agent why will I wanna do tat ?

Let me ask u a question. Why do u think Pro PAP people must be gov agent ? Rolling Eyes Do u think there r no pro PAP people in singapore ? How do u tell the difference between a pro PAP person and a cyber cop

Let us not be dishonest about our intent and stand. I do give my ID in these exchange of views but you dare not reveal yours.

I be frank with u here tat I post religious sensitive topics and I do not want to get into trouble with the authority on tis. Rolling Eyes Call me a coward all u want but I post during my free time as a past time, and I do not want to be in trouble for tis.

Then I suggest you refer these views you disagree with to the minister who could reply instead of assuming policies and reasoning for the government in your counter posts. If the ministers could reply and substantiate that HDB has not only given a discount but subsidised on public housing truly with accountable facts and figures, I would say that he would be a good talent.

Since I am not an agent, I suggest u ask the minister yourself. I am a person tat goes by logic. If I find a logical flow in the argument, I will not hesistate to list it down. If u find it is logically flawed, u could easily point it out

We would like to see how ministers could come to rebut the people's criticism that it is profiteering on public housing and its transfer to original HDB loan system to the private banker loans is against the spirit of the setting up of public housing authority called HDB.

The about-turn on low cost public housing in order to keep taxing and profiteering has today caused one of the biggest problems ever to citizens in human history

U can't find minister rebut from me but my logical conclusion is housing is built on land. No land is free in any city. And collecting tax from people having big houses at good location seems to be good for the people. Finally public housing in singapore is still affordable compared with the rest of the world.

robertteh SG

Fair enough. I will assume you are independent in your view until proven otherwise. Thanks for clarifications.

oxford mushroom SG

Originally posted by spinsugar:
I think it's typically arrogant and ignorant of the PAP to send their running dogs to "counter" (aka dismiss) criticism in cyberspace.

The govt is so quick to call us cowards for supposedly hiding behind internet anonymity.. yet they themselves now employ this "cowardly" method, what's more with 2 layers of anonymity - 1- by replying to its citizens thru 3rd parties, and 2 - disguising these 3rd parties as ordinary netizens. What hypocrisy. What ignorance, for them not to foresee that their half-baked strategy would backfire. Their dogs stick out like sore thumbs with their pro-PAP "templates".

If they agree that the issues we've put forward are such a cause for worry, they should do the right thing any democratic government with an inch of integrity should do - which is to address the citizens [b]directly on a more public platform.. instead of sending their heavenly dogs down to offer us peons a sample of their 'immortal wisdom' while suppressing our voice in the public media. Rolling Eyes [/b]

No reason why the government should not correct the blatant lies and covert misrepresentations that re rife in cyberspace. What's the matter? Haven't got the guts to face a robust debate and have your arguments torn to shreds?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even supporters of the government Mr. Green

robertteh SG

If government is elected to serve the people, is it not duty-bound to tell the truths? So if patient subsidy per donation dollar is inaccurate who is misrepresenting the fact ?

If the facts are not revealed why not accept it is a error of judgment or negligence and why not action be taken on the minister under the codes of conduct for minister for such misrepresentation/

How can people be responsible for misrepresentation when people are asking for the facts to be published in the face of so many years of denial.

Why is MOM not telling it as it is about the extent of unemployment among citizens and why is MOM lumping up figures with the PR in order to muddle the figure.

Why hide the truth from the people when the government often claims it is honest and full of integrity ?

Why tell half-truths like the NKF and why is there a need to counter arguments by citizens as the simplest is to just tell the truths in the first place.

Is HDB subsidizing the prices of low-cost housing or is it just simply giving a discount.

Is the land acquired with people's monies owned by the people and will it not be double-charging by selling these low-cost housing at market prices less a bit of discount which is wrongly misrepresented as subsidy.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

I've noticed you've actually stopped attempting to discuss any solid affairs after the last big trashing Adobe gave you... good, it seems you might have some sense still in you. Unfortunately I do not understand why you insist on trapping yourself with yet another post, ment to be a jab, but ending up putting your own foot into your mouth.

One needs to ask a more relevant question then- is it doing any good or is this just another thing wasting taxpayers time and money better spent on actually bothering to listen for a change and devote some energies there?

It seems to me that not too long back another smaller organization relied on false document to skew public opinion as well... how did that turn out now?

Worse... what if they are like you? Mr. Green Now that would be an abuse of time and resources.

If all the dice were unloaded and the playing field leveled... do you seriously think that the government can "tear" any of the opposition's arguments to shreds? More importantly... is the government the only one around with valid views on how to run a country in here?

People would do good to seperate the wheat from the chaff in cyberspace, but it seems you utterly forget to apply this principle to your pet organization... one wonders how much chaff you are spreading in here.

With people like you... is it any suprise there is this "insurgency"?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
No reason why the government should not correct the blatant lies and covert misrepresentations that re rife in cyberspace. What's the matter? Haven't got the guts to face a robust debate and have your arguments torn to shreds?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even supporters of the government

Is this not ironical that you should make such a pompous statement; and made with such a condescending tone ?

Have you not considered that your opinions and your stand have consistently been proven to be hollow, and have been torn to shreds countless times in this sgForums - not only from my singular efforts ?

While you accuse CSJ to be a masochist - when he has a cause to be one, what could possibly be your reason to continously return to be bashed for your foolishness ?

Yet, you dare to make your usual pompous claim that
" blatant lies and covert misrepresentations ...... re rife in cyberspace " ?

It seems that those blatant lies and covert misrepresentations are those coming from the likes of you and others who are hopelessly defending this Government in cyberspace.

The one who have no guts to face the evidence that you have asked for, and have a robust debate seems to be you.

robertteh SG

Zap wrote:
gahmen take and take from own people
give the money to temasek to play play

now the thai general take everything they buy in thailand

gahmen lan lan already liow hor.

even sand also cannot get from indonesia
because gahmen cbm say indonesia make smoke

see or not
help people for what
tsunami people let them die lah
now lan lan already

It retreated against Port Pelepas. It retreated against challenges from Souzhou local authority. It retreated against Taiwan.

Why ? Because its presumably good and invincible mighty reasoning and ability simply cannot stand up to test by a larger humanity.

Why because their over-pervasive legalistic wrangling against its own citizens like ignoring them and doing as they like irrespective of wrongs do not and cannot work as well in the outer world.

The presumed ability, leadership or talents became hollow hypocrisy the moment they got tested outside the red dot where all rationality of laws and power to reason instantly end in dismal rejection by bigger forces.

That is why they cannot understand why Mahathir and Sonthi do not accept their reign of legalistic wrangling ending up compromising or coming down from the high horse.

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