DEFINITION OF TRUE DEMOCRACY

last SG · 2004-09-06T21:30:40+00:00

Hello BadzMaro, Thanks for the suggestion. I am only giving my views as a citizen as encouraged by PM Lee so that if there are mistakes in the past they wil...

pikamaster SG

quote from Wikipedia: Singapore's model of politics more closely resembles authoritharianism, than democracy (parliamentary).

btw, you contradict yourself in the first para. You say we should work towards Swiss Democracy (i.e. we should choose it), and then make mention that the govt should choose the correct model for us. So are you favouring the People's choice or the Administration's choice?

the puzzeld pikamaster

robertteh SG

It is clearly the aspirations of many many Singaporeans who have observed how democracy have really benefited many countries to see that we are truly democratic and not authoritarian or pseudo-democratic.

There are potential dangers with pseudo-democracy. The comparisons made with the bottom 50 countries to show how certain authoritarian or pseudo-democratic system has worked better is a matter of selective comparison dished out by the media toeing the establishment line.

Because Singapore is not yet a direct democracy like the Swiss model you mentioned, it is now facing many problems - certain lopsided development is taking place where the bottom and middle sections are suffering high costs to support what appear to be successful economy.

It is time for Singapore to evolve towards more democratic model like the Swiss instead of getting mired in certain justifications about authoritarian system which can only benefit certain exclusively fortunate people.

yeebas SG

yes.that is what i meant.The government probably their style of governing Singapore because in those times Singapore is full of gangsters and communists.Of course we need a semi-iron first to stem these out. However, their style of governing singapore is now out-dated. I foresee future problems arising if Singapore does not fully transit into a fully democratic country.

john2007 SG

Dear Fellow forum friends:

I just registered and I am seeking help from you guys.

I am an undergraduate student from the School of Foreign Service, Georgetown University, Washington, DC. I am currently doing a country report for my Comparative Political System class. I chose Singapore to be my topic. So during my research, I found out about this forum, which I think I can get the most reliable and trusted information and reference.

My paper is basically a analytical one about Singapore's political and electoral structure, backed by supporting data and calculations. However, since Singapore is a single-member plurality (majoritarian) democracy, and the PAP is the only major dominant party in the parliament, all my analysis and calculation regarding issues such as seat-allocation would be fairly simple. Therefore, my professor told me to find out other important data to support my analysis, which is to identify a challenge or problem the country faces as a result of its political system.

However given Singapore's impressive prosperity, high rank of GDP per capita, and stability, personally I really want to argue for the benefit of such a political system. (This stance is really for the sake of my paper, because I've never lived in Singapore and i don't want to sound subjective)

But so far I am not successful at all in finding out any "hard data", such as survey, public opinion polls, or statistics, that indicate Singaporeans (voters)' satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the existing electoral system, or satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the governance of the ruling party. So I would be extremely appreciated if you would provide me any available web or non-web sources of (or links to) such survey, opinion poll or statistic information.

This will be a crucial element in my paper to prove my argument. (So far I have already checked on the Singapore Statistic Bureau's website, the SINGOV information site, and sites of various international agencies, such as World Association for Public Opinion Research, The Worldwide Association of Reserach Professionals, Transparency International, and etc.)

Last, I am also interested in finding out how "the Chinese value toward governance" is having an impact on the PAP governance. Perhaps any information on that would help too.

Thank you very much and I really appreciated if any of you wouldn't mind to help

pikamaster SG

Originally posted by john2007:
Dear Fellow forum friends:

I just registered and I am seeking help from you guys.

I am an undergraduate student from the School of Foreign Service, Georgetown University, Washington, DC. I am currently doing a country report for my Comparative Political System class. I chose Singapore to be my topic. So during my research, I found out about this forum, which I think I can get the most reliable and trusted information and reference.

My paper is basically a analytical one about Singapore's political and electoral structure, backed by supporting data and calculations. However, since Singapore is a single-member plurality (majoritarian) democracy, and the PAP is the only major dominant party in the parliament, all my analysis and calculation regarding issues such as seat-allocation would be fairly simple. Therefore, my professor told me to find out [b]other important data to support my analysis, which is to identify a challenge or problem the country faces as a result of its political system.

However given Singapore's impressive prosperity, high rank of GDP per capita, and stability, personally I really want to argue for the benefit of such a political system. (This stance is really for the sake of my paper, because I've never lived in Singapore and i don't want to sound subjective)

But so far I am not successful at all in finding out any "hard data", such as survey, public opinion polls, or statistics, that indicate Singaporeans (voters)' satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the existing electoral system, or satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the governance of the ruling party. So I would be extremely appreciated if you would provide me any available web or non-web sources of (or links to) such survey, opinion poll or statistic information.

This will be a crucial element in my paper to prove my argument. (So far I have already checked on the Singapore Statistic Bureau's website, the SINGOV information site, and sites of various international agencies, such as World Association for Public Opinion Research, The Worldwide Association of Reserach Professionals, Transparency International, and etc.)

Last, I am also interested in finding out how "the Chinese value toward governance" is having an impact on the PAP governance. Perhaps any information on that would help too.

Thank you very much and I really appreciated if any of you wouldn't mind to help

[/b]

Mr John,

You could take a balanced view, rather than teeter tot he side of support (or non-support).

For stats, you could go look at the Straits Times polls. You'd have to register as a member of their mailing list though, on some mysterious caveat that doesn't seem to benefit anyone. Well then, the press happens to be under govt control and ownership too. *sigh*

Don't expect to find any public opinion polls or surveys done by independent organaizations. Polls were banned in this country in 1975. The govt believes it is too subjective, and arouses unnecessary emotion, which is inimical to national security and racial and religious harmony.

You could however, check websites like Freedomhouse, Amnesty International (unless you are as biased against it as the govt is), ThinkCentre, Singapore Review, Reporteres Sans Frontieres' reports, the Sydney Morning Herald, the International Herald tribune, Asiaweek Magazine, and FEER (if its archives still exist). GDP is but a small segment of everything. oh yeah, you could check the US State Department's Annual Reports as well. I provide a list of the URLS as an appendage. At any rate, ThinkCentre has additional links which you might find interesting.

As for the "Chinese Value", I would like to help you, but I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean Confucianism?

the willing pikamaster

P.S.:

RSF: http://www.rsf.org
ThinkCentre: http://www.thinkcentre.org
FreedomHouse: http://www.freedomhouse.co.uk
Amnesty international: http://www.amnesty.org
Singapore Review: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sgreview/
Singapore Elections: http://www.singaporeelections.org (check THinkcentre for the correct url)
TalkingCock: http://www.talkingcock.com
P.P.S.:

Perhaps your "Chinese Value" refers to "Asian Values". In that case, you might wish to check Laureate Prof Amaryta Sen's research report on "Asian Values and Democracy". Do a quick search for "Asian Values" on any search engine, preferably a dmoz-index one, and you should find it easily.

P.P.S.: And for the record, I'm a secondary four student who has just finished secondary school.[/url]

robertteh SG

After abandoning socialism, costs were driven up with double taxes on vehicles and lands (paid for by taxpayers under acquisition regulations and charged at market price again).

All fees are charged on cost-recovery principle even though taxpayers already paid for essential services under taxations.

Surpluses are the only objective of governance resulting in lowering of economic competitiveness for most of the local businesses.

The only way for Singapore to climb out of the deep hole created by meritocracy or top-down system of the past is to import foreigners and businesses to replace the losses and migration. Carry out a survey on how many talented people left Singapore for every foreign talent attracted.

Dr. Catherine Lim has lamented the lack of openness and transparency of such a top-down system 10 years ago. About 5 years ago, she did an interim report and said that it was slightly better. Last week at a night-time talk to NUSS society, she was of the opinion that while there were some changes on specifics most of the core policies of the top-down past remain unexchanged.

People are not asking for welfarism but it will be presented as if people are asking for all kinds of freebies to justify continuing one-party dominance. Sad is the Singapore story. So why want to justify it for thesis writing to add suffering. Laughing

LazerLordz SG

Can we have a proper democracy without all the vested interests getting in the way?Yes.But for that to happen, our legal and democratic institutions must be stronger and independant from cults of personalities which have a unhelpful influence for too much of the time.One might argue that the incumbent will always do their best to secure a political advantage so that they will not be easily defeated in the polls, but the situation here goes beyond simple voting and legislation.We are looking at the near-total dominance of Singapore commerce and politics by one family who happens to have her members in key posts of GLCs and statutory boards.The establishment may claim that they are there due to performance and ability, but the facade tells a story which is not palatable to society at large.

This point aside, what is unnerving is the creeping of the GLCs hands into every segment of the economy.Trade unions are co-opted into the so-called TriPartite compact.More often than not, reasons like efficiency and peaceful conflict resolution are given for the close cooperation between traditionally independant institutions like trade unions and the Press.Granted, this might have been the best solution in the 1970s-1980s where a strong foundation was needed to be built rapidly and effectively without the need of being bogged down by adversarial politics.However, times have changed and this latter is what we need to spur competition and ensure that the state does not rest on her laurels.When key people in charge are faced with grilling and sharp questioning, it keeps them on their feet, as opposed to a company whose shareholders are bullied into silence, thus lulling the management into thinking that all is hunky-dory.I am ashamed of how our govenrment has muzzled our local press to the extent that stellar journalism and strong, confident and intellectual writings have disappeared and replaced by bland, plain reportage of government events and other things pleasing to the establishment.The Printing Presses Act has emasculated our society into having a check and balance on the establishment, with the Whip constantly on the MPs' heads in Parliament, where else do we go for an independant system of checks and balances?

Man is falliable.Remember that.No one in power is absolutely right , nor charitable.They all have their own interests, and the only thing worth noting for us common folk is that the men and women we place in trust to run our country better have similar interests as us.

LazerLordz SG

http://www.singapore-window.org This would give you a more objective view of Singapore news and current affairs.Do drop a line through the PM function anytime Very Happy

iveco SG

Laughing Like that, we might as well not have any government at all. Rolling Eyes

robertteh SG

It looks like MM Lee as he has surprisingly admitted could be wrong about certain emphatic policies of his like promoting 100 % English and 100 % Mandarin or the EM1-3 educational system.

Equally, his intinctive feel about top-down or autocratic system of governance based on the ideas or wills of a few brilliant leaders may be erroneous too.

How to create more entrepreneurship to help re-positioning the whole new economy to the next level of competitiveness.

There has been much helplessness during the Asian Financial Crisis and last two prolonged recessions with scholars being inept or unable to turn around the economy.

For a newly emergent or first-world economy or for the first 20 to 30 years of independent nationhood, top-down autocracy exercised on trust or sheer will power of a few may be just passable as long as it brings about progress.

In today's highly competitive environment, how to produce more competitive goods and services, retain talents, do away with discrimination against local talents or businesses and how to avoid running up high costs in the form of hyper salaries for all civil servants is the biggest challenge.

So current electoral and governance system should be open up for mass participation through being evolved further to be truly accountable and transparent as posted in the 7 points of true Democracy.

If there has been a mistake or error, it will be beneficial to let it be admitted early to change and retain mass practical talents to contribute to the next phase of nation building. Laughing Idea

iveco SG

Never thought that old man would admit his faults. He and his son are the most egocentric people I've ever seen. For them to admit their faults is very out of character. Don't tell me our dear MM is dying? Shocked

LazerLordz SG

Quite true.They have been quite contrite, in comparison to their usual ego tripping..Something's happening.I can feel it in my bones. Cool

robertteh SG

PM Lee who was just elected as the Secretary General of PAP has called on Singaporeans again, this time both the old and young to join PAP to serve the nation.

However, what he seems to have again forgotten is to address the most critical issue of all - whether he would unwind the autocracy system of the past to allow more people to practise entrepreneurship or make meaningful contributions.

Entrepreneurship was repeatedly found to be sorely lacking in our economy as can be seen in recent recessions. Without freeing up the controls and tight reins on ideas and choices, how can any one contribute to building a great nation.

Further procrastination will cause Singapore to lose out on mass entrepreneurship culture essential for continual success.

Thus the call can be seen as at best a meaningless rhetoric. At the most, it will only entice self-interested individuals to advance their own careers who are willing to subject themselves to party loyalty as before.

Haven't Singaporeans been told at every election of new faces and new talents of diverse qualities and academic qualifications. What do they see but same docile yesmen in parliament.

What Singapore society needs badly now are people with ideas and daring to speak up their minds and do something about the current high costs that have resulted in our loss of economic competitiveness?

So will the new crops of candidates said to be full of promises are indeed any different in terms of such daring spirit to make changes to existing unworkable hardened policies like meritocracy for a few or pro-foreign attitudes in employment or business promotions.

One needs to ask oneself this question " will the current candidates be any different from the past? Do they have the daring to face the behemoth of restrictions and constraints and to work towards free flow of ideas, choices and solutions.

Among the PM Lee's first tests will be the unequivocal dismantling of past draconian press control as witnessed in the episode of sudden termination of the ST pressman reported in this forum.

Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder. So, he should match his words by committing himself to freeing up on controls due to past autocratic practices and assure all citizens once and for all of freedom in political participation without risk of prosecution under defamation laws as posted under the 7 points of true democracy.

Rolling Eyes

robertteh SG

For yet another world perspective of democracy from the middle east this time, read the comments from the interim President of Iraq as reported by CNN (8.12.2004) below:-

Iraq's interim president sees no reason why the insurgency should not be vanquished within a year and Iraq well on its way toward becoming a constitutional democracy. "We're not fighting a Viet Cong, which has principles and popular support," says Ghazi al-Yawar. "We are fighting Saddam loyalists. ... The whole Iraqi population is against them. I'm sick and tired of them."

Laughing

LittleTiger SG

There is no 100% of fair and democracy. Wake up.... Even mother will also extraly loves of sided certain children.
What we can do is going and making the % of democracy higher

Country like spore cannot use direct democracy. Cos ppl too much complain this and that and everyone is out to turn the side to his own good.
Swiss is different, all are Swissdish ppl(skin, color and language) and their nationalism and heritage are high.

iveco SG

There are French and German speakers living in Switzerland, mind you.

Also, direct democracy means unpopular policies will not be passed at all, since all have been filtered through the referendum process.

robertteh SG

There is no disagreement with your statement "There is no 100% of fairness and democracy".

But does this statement mean " we should not try to be democratic or as democratic as should be.." It is noted that you are not against trying to attain higher and higher percentage of democracy.

The 7 points of true democracy will ensure the current problems caused by top-down leadership thinking of a few men will become one day more open, accountable and transparent governance.

Without adopting a practical platform to which Singapore should try to evolve to there may be more and more judgmental errors such as anti-welfare (high costs the side effects), streaming, (sidelining of practical talents) Mother tongue (only lately admitted by MM) and pro-foreign (job losses due to indiscriminate employment of foreigners) or undoable and over-presumptuous talent or meritocratic (brain drain of practical talents the result) policies to cause more problems ahead. Laughing

robertteh SG

Every other day, we will be coming across more news on inefficient performance due to lack of accountability and transparency at various departments.

For example, not long ago, we have been listening to big news from ministers about introduction of A1 toilets in the housing estates.

What happens. The latest radio listeners' survey by radio 958 proved otherwise - toilets in various estates are getting worse by the days.

We have been hearing big news sometime ago how ministries have been introducing work safety standards in work sites.

What happens? Work sites have become so unsafe that one of the engineers at Nicol highway decided to end his own life after failing to get the attention of his seniors regarding site problems prior to Nicol Highway final collapse. Is this case investigated by the inquiry panel?

We have been hearing much about restructuring of the economy over the past several years during Asian Financial crisis and last two recessions. A lot of publicity was given to remaking of Singapore and upgrading of management and corporate governance.

What happens? There is still no news of our having put up an Business Master Plan or strategy as the MNCs would have done. How to create more jobs and save jobs from abuses of employers in indiscriminate employment of foreigners? How to keep up with changes that will re-vitalise the down-sliding economy?

There have been much talks about changing mindsets and doing away with past unworkable policies or work practices.

What happens? Take a look at Town Council's estates. Many of them have degenerated into dumping grounds of all kinds with karung guni stuff of all kinds stored at the rear of premises causing great fire risks. No wonder we are seeing so many fires recently as reported weekly over the TV news.

There is no time to lose in introducing accountable and transparent governance. Without accountable and transparent work processes, there will be no genuine improvements to the lives of citizens. If everything is based on propaganda and PR justifications, how is the country going to make progress.

Remember the PROGRESS PRINCIPLES posted by someone in this forum? Your views on how accountable and transparent government should be will be welcome. Idea Idea Idea

pikamaster SG

LittleTiger,

pple here complain alot becos they feel that they are not heard. In a direct democracy, there would be no excuse to feel this way. As for everyone being out to turn the side to his own good, that is more of the product of the current system than an innate characteristic of a people. Once the system changes, I am certain that this poor big-fish-eat-small-fish mentality will dissipate as well.

As for Swiss people, they are more diverse than you think. Apart from their skin colour (and even this point may not be accurate), Swiss are made up of different linguistic and ethnic groups: German, French, Italian. so there.

And again nationalism and heritage are ends, not means to an end.

Holiday Regards,

the pikamaster

Diesel.Okini SG

Whilst it's true to say that there is no 100% democracy, the reason is because that's not practical nor pragmatic. It doesn't mean however, that Singapore cannot be more democratic.

Whilst things such as unpopular but beneficial laws need to be passed, this is addressed through parliamentary motions, not public referendum. However, the purpose of democracy is to give true accountability to the people. I recall when former President Ong wanted to publicise the government's finances, particularly on overseas investment, he was left stigmatized by the Men in White. The Singapore government refused to publicise those accounts (because it's made huge losses, particularly China). Millions went down the drain, yet today Singaporeans are being told that their government is pragmatic and accountable. The PAP is no doubt a great practitioner of macro-economic policy, putting decent public services etc. into society, providing a good investment/business environment, but it does not mean that they should get away with losing Singapore's savings.

There may be other blemishes, but you simply don't hear because they can be swept under the carpet. Democracy gives true accountability, it gives representation to the people, and political understanding itself allows society to grow & broaden it's horizon.

The PAP serves the people well, but the people still have no true control over the PAP. That is not quite acceptable.

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