Death Penalty Appeal

last SG · 2005-10-26T11:18:18+00:00

oh my god......still talking about this hanging stufff......get over it.......its centuries ago......look at the hanging of the pure aussie guy in malaysia l...

LazerLordz SG

Precisely why the mandatory sentencing policy is flawed.Sentencing should be up to the judiciary with each case weighed individually.I’d say..give the power back to the Court.

Fatum SG

well then,

if some of Osama's minnions were bringing a nuclear bomb through Changi airport, but were only transiting to say, New York or sydney, should we hang them or not ? ... Rolling Eyes

a drug smuggler is a drug smuggler is a drug smuggler, period.

it's not like we're hanging someone who unwittedly kill somebody while drunk or something ... it was a pre-meditated flouting of a law with penalties explicitly laid out ....

LazerLordz SG

How can you remain objective when you equate international terrorism with drug smuggling.At the time of the crime, was anyone killed?There is a reason why there are such things as laws.

ShutterBug SG

You people just can't see it.

You can never find fairness in LAW. It's intrumental, as much as a gun is.

The killing of an innocent man/woman/child/baby by a mad man, murderer, or blurglar, is no different from the killing by way of LAW a convicted criminal.

This topic of Death Penalty can go on in circles without end, as human LAW can never please everyone.

Kurs SG

Of course no person is guilty on all charges upon arrest. But the law is written such that possession of drugs is deemed to be trafficking.

Agree with this.

^spidee^ SG

Found this from Amnesty International.

Prime Minister
LEE Hsien Loong
Prime Minister's Office
Istana, Orchard Rd
Singapore 238823

Dear Prime Minister,

I am appealing to your Cabinet to urgently reconsider granting clemency
to Australian man Van Tuong Nguyen who will otherwise be executed for
drug trafficking.

I believe the death penalty is the most cruel and inhumane punishment and
is an appalling abuse of the most fundamental human right - the right to
life. Van Tuong Nguyen is a young man with no prior criminal conviction
who does not deserve to pay the ultimate price for this mistake.

I understand under Singapore's Constitution, clemency can be granted in
rare circumstances and that Van Tuong Nguyen's case fits the criteria - I
believe he has always shown remorse, confessed at the earliest
opportunity and cooperated fully with the Singaporean authorities and the
Australian Federal Police.

I urge your government to show compassion and grant clemency to this
young man.

Yours sincerely,

iveco SG

Ngyuen was just unlucky in a sense that the metal detectors beeped when he tried to pass through them. If he had cleared the detectors, nobody would have found out that he was carrying drugs. Instead of languishing in the Death Row of Changi prison today, he might be living under police protection in Victoria as a state witness in the trial of the crime bosses.

dragg SG

why traffic drugs when he can go do something else.

afterall it was only 400g. how much are they paying him for the job?

silly way for a 25 yr old young man to lose his life.

hopefully for once our govt decides to offer clemency. afterall our new president has hardly ever given one.

Fatum SG

Yes, i totally agree, it's a waste of a young life, and Yes too, the biggest culprits, the ones most deserving of death, are the syndicate bosses, who are probably living it up in some villa somewhere ... does this state of things offend our sensibilitie and sense of justice ? ... yes, of course ....

but a crime is a crime is a crime .... there is an explicit law ... and he flouted it .... announcements are made before touch down on most flights into Singapore ... the penalties are clear ... in anycase, in law, ignorance of the law is no defence.

sure, there were mitigating circumstances .... there always were .... if we take all of these into account no body would be deemed a criminal but a victim of fate and circumstances then ...

the Law may upset reason and logic, but reason and logic must never upset the law .... or else there will be chaos .... mandatory sentencing may not be the fairest thing to do ... but we need to have some benchmark to ensure equality in the justice administered, harsh though it might be .....

It's say that we have to snuff out a young life ... but i grieve only for the parents, not the man ..... the saddest part of any crime is that others will have to suffer the consequences along with the criminals too ....

dragg SG

he is a very good looking young man.

maybe someone can start a petition and ask the govt to give clemency just for once.

^spidee^ SG

I received an email this morning requesting people to appeal to the officials of the Singapore govt. Apparently, he was from my uni and my wushu club. Sigh..

sgdiehard SG

Make no mistake, the transit area is Singapore territory,! It is a restricted area and is under Singapore law, not international law. Singapore is a hub for both air travel and cargo shipments by seas, thousands of ppl and millions of containers transit in Singapore (in bonded areas, also restricted areas under Singapore jurisdiction). All personnel and goods in transit areas and bonded areas have entered Singapore.

Is there a different objective for drug trafficking than to make quick and big money, at the expense of the addicts? Do the ends justify the means? Does it matter if the money is to clear brothers debt, pay mothers hospital bills?? Why not smuggle gold, cigarettes, dutiable items, like bring in rare species of animals and plants into Australia?

Unless they were framed or can prove that they carried the drugs unknowingly, drugs traffickers violate our laws and is punishable according to the law. If we need to see anyone killed, at the time of the crime, before we can arrest or convict drug traffickers, we must be blind to many who died of drug abuses in hospitals.

By now I believe the whole Australia, if not the whole world, know that there is this little red dot here that hang those who traffic drugs. Why do they choose to transit in Singapore, not Bangkok, not KL, not HK??? Somebody told me, when I used to travel frequently to Europe, the reason why many want to transit in Singapore, or fly SIA, it is because you get through customs relatively quicker than if you were to fly from Bangkok and KL. Believe it or not..

And where are the syndicate bosses now? Certainly not Singapore, more likely in Australia. Why dont the oz government work on these big culprits, and they will directly save the lives of many would be traffickers, and the drug addicts outside of australia.

Singapore law and judicial system is by no means perfect, but lets respect the ppl who are trying to do their job, they are civil servants, not PAP. The implication of a container loaded with chemicals contaminants or anything potentially can be used as a WMD, transit in Singapore and reach the USA, Japan or Australia, is far greater than the rights of some drug traffickers.

sgdiehard SG

a good reason why he should be pardoned for trafficking drugs? Mr. Green

dragg SG

its true.

many a times when told that i came from singapore export the customs people just waved me on.

pikamaster SG

SGdiehard,

*sigh*

1) ok Very Happy

2) Interesting; why don't you use that same question "does the ends justify the means?" against many of the govt's policies? Yes, it matters what teh money is used for, because that shows how cruel our presumed trafficker actually is. If he is desperate, well psychologists would tell you that desperate people do foolish things that they regret afterwards; tt's a medical condition, kinda anyway.

3) You apply a fallacy of composition here. There are many people dying in hospital beds out of drug abuses, yar, but how do you know that our particular drug trafficker sold drugs to these people? It is inaccurate to immediately assume that someone you catch at the airport is responsible for all those people's deaths. And the first line is rather chilling - why izzit that the people "caught" must prove that they were framed or carried the drug unknowingly? Why isn't it the responsibility of the prosecution to prove that the person caught carried the drug knowingly or was not framed? Or do you believe that suspected drug-traffickers are guilty until they prove themselves innocent? Mad

And IMHO, go read AI and you will find a number of cases in which people who carried drugs unknowingly (and in one case, a mentally-disabled honkee) were still sentenced to the death penalty. I guess that gives Govt A1 for equality in administering punishment but U for fairness of administered punishment.

4) Exclamation Now you commit a fallacy of generalization. Australia does not choose to transit drugs in Singapore. One particular Australian does not represent the government of Australia pleading for clemency, and certainly NOT the entire Aussie population.

5) Current Affairs check: the major drug syndicates are probably harboured in Myanmar, NK and Afghanistan; those 3 countries are the world's largest producers of opium, and hence heroin.

6) A brilliant fallacy of association!!! Exclamation Rolling Eyes Heroin and Marijuana are in a totally different league from Anthrax or any other biological or chemical pollutant, and hence both groups of stuff should not be treated as equals. Besides, friend, we have an extensive and burgeoning bureaucracy, even not counting GLCs. There are many branches of specialized civil servants. The ISD officials working on preventing the entry of hazardous substances and biological weapons do not work with low-level drug-trafficking cases. Drug-trafficking is handled by the CNB and CID, separate statuory boards from the ISD.

the (abolitionist) pikamaster

sgdiehard SG

hmm....what the world would become if eveybody is free to do anything just because he is desparate. By then, I believe the whole world is sick. Rolling Eyes

Is he a "presumed" trafficker or is he a convicted "trafficker"? period.

why is there a need to catch someone and assume that he or she is responsible for the drug abuses?? hundreds of thousands of visitors went through the airport eveyday why he was caught?
No time to argue for the sake of argument.
Neutral

When you were caught naked with your neighbours wife on her bed, are her hushand and your wife supposed to prove that you were indeed having an affair or is it your responsibility to prove your innocence? you just happen to drop in to see her after a shower, and Embarassed forgot your pants. Mr. Green

I sure hope the government of Australia are not represented by some drug traffickers. Rolling Eyes
Severe penalty for drug offences in the region is not new but I fail to understand why every now and then the oz government have to plead for their citizens committing the offence, in singapore, in bali, penang....is it ignorance or is it sheer arrogance that they think the laws do not apply to them. Evil or Very Mad

your common sense fails you or your arrogance blind you. The drug lords in myanmar and afganistan probably never leave their countries in their life. In every country where there are drugs peddled on the streets, there are local syndicates. The big money is made down stream!

How does NK come in? theory of the axis of evils.

Terrorists kill for their ideologies and religions, abeit wicked or crooked; drug traffickers kill for money. Terrorists are prepared to give up their lives, drug traffickers are afraid to die. They are indeed not the same. The only equals between them is that they kill indiscriminately.

hmm....you really think that i thought the guy was accidentally caught by officials looking for hazardous materials and weapons?

There are laws here in Singapore, it is not perfect and it certainly cannot and does not please everybody, but Foreigners are welcomed in singapore only if they respect us, including our laws. Stay in australia if they want the australian law.

Suggest "would be" drug traffickers changed line and start smuggling plants and rare animals into australia. anything not available there must worth a lot of money. Smuggling plants and animals sure wont kill anybody.

LazerLordz SG

Then the law must be changed.

pikamaster SG

Sgdiehard,

1) Rmb, I'm only arguing agaisnt the Death penalty, not against criminal punishment. i.e.: I'm saying that teh guy should be given a lighter sentence if he had a genuine altruistic motive in committing the crime. That deosn't excuse the fact that teh crime is a crime though. period.

2) By our laws, he is a "presumed" trafficker. period.

3) He was caught because he possessed a large amount of drugs, and the large amount of drugs in his possession could have been due to him being a serious abuser himself. IMHO, I never argue for the sake of argument.:X

4) Fallacy of the false analogy. (n FYI, bear in mind you're talking to a teenager.) In a case of an affair, the nudeness is proof enough, not to mention the bed-sharing. A more accurate analogy would be the wife accusing her husband of an affair just because it happens that he is carrying some roses on valentine's day that came from the neighbour's wife. As you would realize, this isn't very hard evidence at all. Mr. Green

5) They feel the need to stand up for their own citizens - go google for the Australian Government's official release. They are pleading for their own citizens not because they think that the laws of other coutnries do not apply to their nationals, but because the Australian Government has a strong ideological stand agaisnt the death penalty. Of course, die-hards like you might not be able to understand properly the phrase "ideological stand". Evil or Very Mad

6) My common sense and arrogance have not blinded me. Yours has blinded yourself. The drug lords in Myanmar and Afghanistan do not leave their countries just like Osama does not leave wherever he is hiding now. They run international syndicates. By logic, you can't just have local syndicates, since they need to be tied to suppliers. For a smuggling ring to be effective, it needs to be at least on the regional scale i.e. smuggling drugs from a drug-producing country (e.g Myanmar) to a non-drug-producing country (e.g. M'sia or Singapore).

7) Nope, it's not a theory. It was on the news. Mr. Green

8 ) Another fallacy of association. Drug traffickers do not kill. They merely sell drugs. The drug-addicts who consume exorbitant amounts of drugs kill themselves, call it a form of second-degree suicide or "manslaughter suicide" (ya, i coined the term). Drug traffickers are not serial killers. They are like any other door-todoor or street-to-street salesmen, it's just that their merchandise is undesirable. They are like the tobacco companies. Smoking is bad for your health, but if you smoke, you can't blame the tobacco corporations for making you smoke. You have to blame yourself. Twisted Evil

9) No. Confused Question

10) Technichally, this para is irrelevant to the para you're making reference to, but anyway...

I don't see any form of disrespect that Foreigners have shown us. You seem to be applying the MIW's logic - if you speak out against our policies, youa re disrespecting us. (IMHO, that's fallacy of false-cause.)

11) Now, you're the one disrespecting Australian law. Rolling Eyes Smuggling plants and animals into Australia might destroy Australian crops and livestock, because the foreign plants may have germs and bacteria that they are immune against, but which the Australian organisms have not adapted to. And of course, crops and livestock are a food-source. But even then, it's just the items which will be siezed; the smuggler will not be jailed at all. S/he may be fined, but not jailed or caned, and certainly not hanged. Exclamation

the (dissappointed) pikamaster

pikamaster SG

Don't you detect double-standards and hypocrisy in this policy?

dragg SG

i have the impression that death penalty for drug trafficking is erected only to save trouble (long jail term will increase cost) and elevate our international status than to protect the people.

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