Let those who intend to emigrate opt out of NS

last SG · 2006-01-18T12:04:09+00:00

for me i will try not to enter NS…...arrgh

iveco SG

In Malaysia, the Chinese population are regarded as 2nd class as many positions are reserved for Malays. No surprise that many of them are taking up residency in Singapore and sucking up our jobs.

For Nanyang Chinese to return to the mainland, it is virtually impossible because China is still quite isolated due to the Communist scourge. On the other hand, a Nanyang Indian can still feel at home in Chennai due to India's openness all along.

In conclusion, a Singaporean Chinese is pegged back not once but twice.

Fatum SG

awww ... Well ... actually, I can think of worse nationalities to be ....

geographically challenged chaps who still think Singapore's part of China aside ... I think I'm quite proud say I'm Singaporeans overseas ... at least we're not from some third world shit hole ....

and, judging from the cases of south and east asians I've met pretending to be "Singaporeans" (yes, they really do pretend to be Singaporeans ... telling everyone that they're from Singapore)... I think there are non-Singaporean chaps who thought so too ...

Fatum SG

it is still you ...

I think it's very sad that you dislike your own race ... I seriously think you should seek counseling ... else you're going to be damm miserable going through life hating yourself, and wishing to be someone else eh ? ..

depressed SG

What the ...?!

So maybe I should start discussing the price of pork bellies in China - that's about as relevant to this thread as your ramblings. What the devil does HDB upgrading have to do with the topic at hand?

I've already pointed out that if we're discussing the topic of serving NS, the key privelege in question is the safety provided by others doing their duty, with the accompanying obligation to fulfil the same duty at a given time. Your insistence on going off on a tangent of unrelated aspects of Singaporean life simply does not make any sense.

I'll bet you're one of those people who doesn't believe in insurance, but sure as hell you'll bleat like a stabbed nanny goat when the proverbial excrement hits the fan. I'm certain that many Kuwaitis felt exactly the same way you did on 1 August 1990, only to change their minds quite hurriedly the next day. If you want to believe that you can happily trot along without any form of defence, feel free to get an Egyptian passport and reside in denial - history has already proven you wrong.

If this Pavin fellow wishes to freeload on some country willing to provide him safety, let him go there. He and his parents have had forty years or so to catch up with the introduction of NS in Singapore and have no excuse for not knowing that unlike other countries, safety is not counted as a freebie here.

You're the one who brought up Japan, so I addressed your point. Going off on another tangent is not going to do you any good here.

The thread that you referred to is, at best and being very charitable, only peripherally related to your point. You're the one who made the assertion, so why do I have to be the one who takes a tally on JobsDB on your behalf? You want to make a point? Back it up. Otherwise it's tripe.

In any case, my intention here is to debate the substance of Pavin's wild theories of why he should be exempt from NS. I'm really not interested in meandering and entertaining rambling irrelevancies.

what i meant from upgrading when i originally posted:

I am sure the thousands of millions spent by the government on unnecessary upgrading exercises could be put to good use.

You probably got me wrong.
i refer the upgrading exercise as the HDB upgrading exercise, not SAF upgrading exercises.

and I agree that the thread is getting irrelevant. My reply about priviledges was in regard to a post that is made earlier about priviledges in a country. You chose to harp on that point and make a saracastic remark on whether i need a car or a house as a priviledge.

As for the part on war and countries which do not have conscription, I have edited them out from my reply post before you make another reply. As for Kuwait, lets not forget what happened when USA interfere. Iraq ended up getting massive sanctions and was in the end, invaded by USA.

[email protected] SG

that, and a lot more.

iveco SG

Well, some people are extremely short sighted. They probably need reading glasses in order to see the big picture.

[email protected] SG

if u knew what i knew, if u went thru what i did, u would not think that way anymore.

honestly? im not proud to tell people im singaporean overseas. too many reasons not to be proud. and u know what? singapore is not a 3rd world shit hole true. no. singapore is a 1st world shit hole

Gedanken SG

Well, it's one irrelevancy after another with you, isn't it? Let's take it from the top.

First, when discussing NS, the corresponding privelege is obviously and logically the safety provided to the citizens. It's not harping on a point, it IS the point. Within the context, education, economy and what not are relevant only insofar as they hinge upon a stable and safe environment provided by proper defence.

Second, well, you may have tried to delete it, but it shows the weak foundation upon which you are basing your propositions. I have provided the one piece of evidence needed to disprove your assertion that you can merrily traipse along without defending your country and assume you will continue unmolested. The fact of the matter is that Singapore does not have the population size upon which to form a properly-sized regular army, and therefore conscription is necessary to the defence of the country. If Singapore were to have a similar percentage to the US of its population serving as regulars, there would be just about bugger all to keep anyone from invading. Just in case you want to argue that nobody would want to invade Singapore, I'd recommend you read your history books.

Also, the invasion of Iraq is an entirely separate war, otherwise it would have been called Desert Strom instead of Iraqi Freedom. Again you muddy the waters.

Let's get to the key issue, shall we? No matter how you cut it, if you're living safely, somebody's paying for it. If you're even half decent, you must foot your part of the bill.

breytonhartge SG

You are only as pegged back as you allow yourself to be, stop being a whiner. I am amazed! I thought we were stronger than that! Have some pride in yourself!

will4 SG

I think the Chinese in Malaysia is better treated than in Indonesia.
Chinese Malaysian in majority case hoped to stay here but majority I seen always go back to stay in Malaysia.
I asked some Chinese Malaysian in here how come they will not renounced their citizenship, they said they still prefer Malaysia.

geodome SG

I am proud to be of Straits Chinese. We Straits Chinese dominate almost the entire Southeast Asian economy as an ethical group Very Happy

Since his parents have decided in place of him when he is not an adult legally, the choice is law-binding. He must serve national service.

However, I do know someone personally who gave up his Singapore citizenship halfway during National Service. Once he finished his SISPEC training, this friend of mine rejected his Singapore citizenship/passport and went to Canada. He holds a Canadian citizenship. He left Singapore for good 6mth into national service.

I think there is some degree of freedom whereby people with dual citizenship can avoid National Service. Looking from another angle, it is a security problem to let non-Singapore citizens to be part of our citizen army.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by will4:

I think the Chinese in Malaysia is better treated than in Indonesia.
Chinese Malaysian in majority case hoped to stay here but majority I seen always go back to stay in Malaysia.
I asked some Chinese Malaysian in here how come they will not renounced their citizenship, they said they still prefer Malaysia.

At least the Chinese population in Malaysia is assured of their right to a Malaysian Citizenship - which cannot be taken away just because you are out of the Country for more then TEN Years.

Although racial politics exist in Malaysia, due to the economic disparity and disadvantage of the different communities dating back to pre-independence, the Malaysian Chinese still could not complain much, as discrimination is not financially administered but only in the form of government services.

However, the Malaysian Chinese had shown their resillience and intelligence by adapting to the changing circumstance, and have strived to overcome the initial handicap that was politically imposed. The Malaysian Chinese had beaten the odds and had bettered their own lot and won the race with a heavy handicap weighing on them.

The Malaysians prefer to work in Singapore to earn the Singapore Dollar, which when exchanged into Malaysian Ringgit allow them to earn two to four times what they can earn in Malaysia.

The Malaysians need the jobs that we can offer, and our businesses and industries need the Malaysian workforce.

Where does this leave the average Singaporean ?

We will need to change our POLITICS that affect our entire political, economic, cultural and social psychic and competitiveness.

We have to have a more open system that allow Singaporeans to take charge of our own political process, much like the Japanese citizens are participating in the Government decisions that affect the future of its Citizens.

The Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Party need to learn from small countries such as Switzerland, Israel, Ireland, Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, and even Finland, that the Citizens must be involved in the decision making process that affects our own Future.

Decisions that affect our own Future cannot be left to Politicians, and Politics cannot be the exclusive business of Politicians only.

Politics is about the Singapore Citizenry, about our present and future.

It is not the exclusive monopoly of the Ruling Party, but the Citizens.

depressed SG

without intending to continue the needless argument which might get too irrelevant, i have here a post from someone and you decide abt it:

During my time as a medical officer, I met many people like Pavin. They had great difficulties coming to terms with serving in the SAF. Some threatened suicide. Many said exactly what Pavin had said. Many a time I told them it was the law that they had to serve. No amount of reasoning should change that. Many of these boys said they never had a say, and it was all their parent's decision to come to Singapore, yet their father's never had to serve NS and thus did not know exactly what they were talking about when they ask their sons to serve NS.

I recall very clearly one Indonesian Singapore PR (2nd generation) who told me "If Singapore and Indonesia go to war, I will run to the Indonesians and fight for them. I will use your SAF weapons and what I learned from the SAF to kill people like you, rape your wives and daughters and laugh in your face"

when that happens, you will be paid fully for the warped sense of "bills" that comes with interest as well.

norey SG

I really do not do justice to overlook all the issues mentioned here..but suffice to say it 's not just stupid on the hastily formulated laws regarding N.S. defaulters.. there are so many issues on this which the GARMEN parliamentarians had overlooked or are just considering..we have a hastily made law because of one American musician or just because surrendipitiously the Garmen are on a blind road down the way of unforseen situations?
Read:http://www.sgwiki.com/wiki/SAF_Deaths which I quote here at length:

Government to impose stiffer penalties for NS defaulters

There are really several issues which in the course of being of dual citizenship which can be burdensome for those needed to do their national service in Singapore. Some people may be born and brought up as Americans or Australians or some foreign countries where they don't know anything about Singapore except that their parents were from an alien Country and had registered them as "citizen" of Singapore by no choice of their own. Should such a person when he come back to Singapore as a tourist wanting to see his parent's homeland, then suddenly discovered that he had been N.S.defaulter! That had happened before, so had the Parliamentarians discuss this issue at all?
Besides the financial restraints and the out-of-Country plus out of sight situation, should these dual citizenship holders be forced to comply with the narrow-minded laws of Singapore?

Then what<?>:they would be forced to live with a bunch of N.S. whose worldviews and culture were not exactly his own, what would be the likely culture shocks be <?>, Are Singapore aware of these people who maybe truly Singaporean at heart, however, the N.S. would be negatively be inculcating some initial wrong values among foreign born registered Singaporeans serendipitously! Is that what the Garmen really wanted? I think the Garmen imagine those foreign born Citizens of Singapore in China and India are wealthy enough to fly home and to their loyal services to Singapore... I believe such issues are just the top of the tip of greater issues that I believe Singaporeans had allowed their Garmen people to run the show, but down to the bottomline, a law when made, is still LAW and who will take all the stupid blames? Who will suffer at the end of the stick?> The rich rulers, the politicians, or the common people

iveco SG

Well said, Atobe. Very Happy

LazerLordz SG

Yes, there is a price to pay for enjoying our security.But it does not make it any more moral to tie down citizens, or God forbid, 2nd gen PRs who have NOT even grown up here to serve NS if they have made the choice to leave.Those who want to stay, will serve and grudgingly still give their marginal best.

It is the nature of these laws that are ironically, smacking the notion of patriotism as a self-induced construct back at the government who choose to regulate even the concept of self-patriotism.

NS has to stay, but we rather not have people who want to leave.If you choose to stay, you make a better soldier in the NS context, why'd do we want to also keep those who want to leave?To mask over incompetencies in recruitment?Population is not an excuse.

Universal suffrage HAS to be lowered to 18.If you are able to bear arms, then you should jolly well be allowed to fucking vote or make your decision on citizenship matters.Anything else is mere control and a sickening way of ensuring we have quantity, which might impact undesirably on the quality.

Why has this been ranted on for decades and nothing has been done?Do you see any reactivity on such issues?Or do we only see reactivity on issues related to comfortable issues like lift upgrading?A matured and open society?Bullshit.

People like us serve and realise that this nation is worthy to protect because we believe it will improve and evolve, not stuck in a rut.It's sad but it's our duty, if we have chosen to stay.I may not like or agree with those who choose to leave, but I'm inclined to defend them because it should be their right to make their abode elsewhere and not be forced to pay maximum costs, but their own internal marginal costs.

av98m SG

Originally posted by depressed:
I recall very clearly one Indonesian Singapore PR (2nd generation) who told me "If Singapore and Indonesia go to war, I will run to the Indonesians and fight for them. [b]I will use your SAF weapons and what I learned from the SAF to kill people like you, rape your wives and daughters and laugh in your face"
[/b]

Shocked Surprised Holy crap.

iveco SG

This is farking long overdue. It should have come about as soon as conscription was implemented. In fact, the USA lowered the age of voting following the Vietnam draft because many student protestors agitated for it.

Atobe SG

The problem that the Young feel that they do not belong here is perhaps due to the fact that they are considered sufficiently MATURE to be responsible to defend the POLITICAL FUTURE of Singapore - BUT by the same yardstick of MATURITY they are NOT SUFFICIENTLY RESPONSIBLE to participate in any POLITICAL PROCESS for the sake of Singapore Politics.

This kind of 'double standards' is a common feature with the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party.

Fatum SG

"kill people like us ? rape our wives ? ... "

well ... to be honest, I'm laughing ...

childish talk again ... in a war ... I assure you ... these sort of people would run away at the first opportunity ... along with everything they can bring ... fight us ? ... he's more likely to avoid getting into a war at all cost instead.

why ? ... cos I don't believe he knows what it means to stand for something, people who think like this are selfish, and think in terms of what the society does for me, what's in it for me, rather than the other way around ... people like this are leachers. you expect someone like this to fight ? ... even for the other side ? ...

oh no, I assure you ... he won't ... Laughing

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