Western governments are quiet about CIA torture techniques

last SG · 2005-12-19T13:35:37+00:00

I think the type of torture techniques used are really very mild, but as long as it works, its OK. As for privacy, notice that Bush's ratings are up after N...

oxford mushroom SG

Where are the human rights activists who protest about the death penalty in Singapore but are silent about the torture techniques used by the CIA? Why is Australia so quiet about the abuse of human rights and violation of international law committed in CIA secret prisons in Europe?

This is an excerpt from ABC news:

"The CIA sources described a list of six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" instituted in mid-March 2002 and used, they said, on a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe. According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess...."

(http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866&page=1)

redstone SG

It's like a criminal mastermind reporting to the police a petty crime. Laughing

pikamaster SG

OM,

stop watching CNA and watch more BBC and CNN (not as objective as BBC, but still better than CNA). The activists like AI (Amnesty International) and HRW (Human Rights Watch) are the ones which alerted the world to the CIA torture methods and the secret renditions to other countries (which sadly includes Singapore)!!! Exclamation Sad Sad

the (sad) pikamaster

Salman SG

Whats wrong with torturing terrorirst to get information that will save lives?
I read thru the torture techniques listed and they all seem rather mild. I would have used tougher techniques myself if I have a terrorist in my custody.

I think this thing is silly.

kaka_22 SG

Duh....Ure the one tts silly..... Sad

oxford mushroom SG

Pikamaster,

Get your facts straight..this story was an ABC exclusive

Salman SG

You still did not address my challenge to you.

The logical question is, whats wrong with torturing terrorists for information that will save lives? Don't you know what terrorists do? How many more innocent lives do you want them to kill?
I think you are mad! Too angmo.

pikamaster SG

The problem is that: if u torture terrorists, they will give you the info u want, BUT that may not be the correct/ accurate information.

Let me illustrate:-

INTERROGATOR: What is your name?

TERRORIST: ABU MASIR (disclaimer: just a random name actually; any relation to any person dead or alive is pure coincidence)

INTERROGATOR: Who do you work for?

TERRORIST: Hamas

INTERROGATOR: You work only for Hamas?

TERRORIST: yes

(whip goes down)

INTERROGATOR: You work only for Hamas?

TERRORIST: yes

INTERROGATOR: (grabs the terrorist by collar) Do you know what is going on in the cell next to this one?

TERRORIST: no

INTERROGATOR: Let me tell you; we captured one of your friends and we are whipping him there right now for not telling us the truth. If you don't comply, you will end up like him. Do you understand?

TERRORIST: (putting his ear to the wall) I don't hear anything.

INTERROGATOR: (slaps TERRORIST) You fucking son-of-a-bitch, don't try to play games ok??

TERRORIST: (terrified) Ok, Ok, I work for Al Quaeda as well.

INTERROGATOR: Did you get possession of a bomb?

Terrorist: yes

INTERROGATOR: From where?

TERRORIST: The military?

INTERROGATOR: Don't talk bullshit. The police say you obtained the bomb from a Black Market along Sin Ming Avenue.

TERRORIST: no, I didn't; one of the army officials sold it to me.

INTERROGATOR pushes TERRORIST onto the floor and stamps boot on his cheeks

INTERROGATOR: How dare you defame the army, you lousy foreign low-life!!! Or do you need a jogging of memory?

TERRORIST: (sincerely and desperately) I really did obtain the bomb from an army official. I think his name was Lt-Col George Sim.

INTERROGATOR: Really? (yells at officers outside interrogation room) Go and catch that frigging Lt-Colone!!! (turns back to TERRORIST) So you say Lt-Col George Sim sold you the bomb.

TERRORIST: yes

INTERROGATOR: He's going to be dealt with severely you know. And if you have blamed an innocent man, we will give his family the permission to stone you to death; that's the punishment in your country for perjury, isn't it?

TERRORIST: (sputters in disbelief) But your country is supposed to be civilized; Civilized people do not stone people.

INTERROGATOR: Well, you are not a citizen, are you? You are a national security threat and we have the right to ....

TERRORIST: I demand to see my lawyer!!!

INTERROGATOR: Your lawyer has realized how wicked the man he was defending was, and has submitted his letter of resignation to me. Look, scumbag, look at this. (smothers TERRORIST's face with a blank piece of paper)

TERRORIST breaks down into tears

TERRORIST: My family will still get to see me, won't they? I have 3 wives and 8 children, I have...

INTERROGATOR: (sneers and spits) Oh yes, they will ... we shall send them your head and your corpse in 2 separate packages by air mail. (to soldiers outside) Get the water tank.

Water tank is borught in. INTERROGATOR submerges TERRORIST's head into water

INTERROGATOR: Have you read our local news; earlier this year a young officer cadet ws drowned because his head remained underwater for too long in training. That is your fate if you don't tell the truth.

TERRORIST: (gasping) alright, alright, I got my bomb from a JI operative at a black market in Sin Ming. And no, George Sim (Lt-Col) was not the operative's name.

INTERROGATOR: (kicks TERRORIST) Where were you instructed to place the bomb? Was it Orchard MRT?

TERRORIST: I ... I was instructed to hand it over to someone at the Botanic Gardens. I don't know where that someone planted it.

INTERROGATOR: You're lying!!!

TERRORIST: (earnestly) No, I'm not.

INTERROGATOR: You're lying!!!

TERRORIST: No

INTERROGATOR: (kicks TERRORIST) you're lying!!

TERRORIST: NOO NOO NOOO!!!

INTERROGATOR: (slams TERRORIST against the wall) You're lying!!!

TERRORIST: (sincerely and fearfully) I'm not. (pleads tearfully) Sir, please give me a timeout.

INTERROGATOR: (to ourside) Bring in the metal crate!!!

metal crate is brought in

INTERROGATOR: You want a time-out?? Ok, you have it IN THAT BOX. We'll give you 24 hrs ok?

TERRORIST: I - I - I placed the bomb at Orchard MRT! It was intended to target the American tourists.. But I...

INTERROGATOR: Silence! (to outside) Bring this useless fool back to his cell!!

aftermath: the bomb was discovered at Chinatown after it exploded, and Lt-Col George Sim was convicted by the military tribunal for leaking military secrets are being reported by a fellow officer at Sembawang Army Camp.

the pikamaster (who prays for the eradication of torture and the softening of men's hearts)

ndmmxiaomayi SG

That means the Japanese have rights to torture us during WWII? Shocked

I don't agree with you. By torturing them, you will only make the terrorists angrier and the attacks will be worse and more. Is there a need to use to hard tactics to scare them into giving out information? There are other ways to do so.

ndmmxiaomayi SG

I think as they kill people, it will weigh on their conscience. They will then know that it is wrong. I would prefer to let them kill to let them know that they are wrong rather than torturing them to save people.

oxford mushroom SG

That is a daft question from a kid and does not really deserve a response.

As others have pointed out, torture does not give you the right information. It will give you any sort of information you want, just to get out of suffering. Secondly and most importantly, these persons have not been found guilty of a crime. If they are convicted terrorists, I have no issue with the death penalty being applied on them. Hell, I have no problem with convicted terrorists being hanged, drawn and quartered. I believe in being tough on crime too.

It is the hypocrisy of western governments that I find objectionable. They will champion human rights when it applies to their citizens but turn a blind eye when it involves others.

Finally, if we torture terrorist suspects that fall into our hands, should we be so surprised that they should behead innocent men, women and children who should fall into theirs?

fudgester SG

In the first place, the detainees may not even be terrorists but common crooks or even innocent people who were at the wrong place and at the wrong time.

When you torture someone, they'll do anything just to be spared further agony. I think pikamaster has already pretty much highlighted this point for you. They'll confess to crimes they had never committed, make statements under duress, implicate other innocent people, give made-up information.... in the end, all you get is the wrong information. If anything, bad information can even be worse than no information at all.

And mind you, people have died under torture without any reason to suspect that they were even terrorists to begin with.

Want an example? Manadel Al-Jamadi was one of the prisoners who died from torture at the hand of US soldiers while at Abu Ghraib. It has never been proven that he was a terrorist to begin with.

Think I'm making this up? Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manadel_al-Jamadi

Still not convinced? Read up about the Abu Ghraib scandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

Salman SG

Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
As others have pointed out, torture does not give you the right information. It will give you any sort of information you want, just to get out of suffering. Secondly and most importantly, these persons have not been found guilty of a crime. If they are convicted terrorists, I have no issue with the death penalty being applied on them. Hell, I have no problem with convicted terrorists being hanged, drawn and quartered. I believe in being tough on crime too.

Torture doesn't work? Wanna try?
If torture doesn't work, why would people use it thru the ages to get information?
Surely torture must be very useful to get information, have no doubt about it.

It is the hypocrisy of western governments that I find objectionable. They will champion human rights when it applies to their citizens but turn a blind eye when it involves others.

Torture of terrorists for information is about human rights.
You get information to save innocent lives.
It is hypocrisy of human rights activists to condemn torture of terrorists while keeping mums about terrorists who torture and oppress innocent.

Finally, if we torture terrorist suspects that fall into our hands, should we be so surprised that they should behead innocent men, women and children who should fall into theirs?

If you can guarantee that terrorists will stop terrorism, I can guarantee you that CIA will not have to torture anyone. Can you do that?

oxford mushroom SG

Surprised Suppose I decide that you are a terrorist and want you to confess by torturing you. I cut off your fingers one at a time, take out your eyeballs and then castrate you...how long do you think it will take for you to admit that you are Osama bin Laden if that is what I want to hear?

With torture, you can make a terrorist out of anyone...

fudgester SG

Originally posted by Salman:
Torture doesn't work? Wanna try?
If torture doesn't work, why would people use it thru the ages to get information?
Surely torture must be very useful to get information, have no doubt about it.

A highly flawed and immature argument. You got to do better than this.

Just because it has been used through the ages, it doesn't mean that it works. Let's give an example: The Salem Withcraft Trials. All the people who confessed to withcraft did so not because thay were guilty but because they would be hanged if they were to plead innocent. At the very least, they would have been tortured for information which they don't have at all.

Mind you, at least one person died of torture without giving any information: Giles Corey. He was tortured by having heavy rocks piled on top of him and was demanded to give information WHICH HE DIDN'T HAVE. In the end, he died by giving just two words: 'More weight.'

So many people have already told you: victims of torture will say and do anything just to get out of torture, including giving false information. In the case of Giles Corey, you don't even get any information at all.

What if one day you find YOURSELF being tortured for information WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE. Trust me, you won't be singing the same tune.

Now you are the one who's being hypocritical about human rights. So does torturing of suspects who may not even be involved in terrorism fall within the spectre of human rights? You may say that's a hypothetical scenario, but I can retort that that's a true scenario. Many, if not most of the torture victims at the Abu Ghraib prison scandal were not even terrorist suspects to begin with, but common criminals and people who were at the wrong time and the wrong place.

Sheesh man.... talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

If you can guarantee that terrorists will stop terrorism, I can guarantee you that CIA will not have to torture anyone. Can you do that?

Wanna bet? The Abu Ghraib prison tortures were conducted against people whom the torturers knew had nothing to do with terrorism. Some of the torture victims were there just because they (I quote) 'displayed displeasure or ill will' against US forces!

So even if terrorism isn't there, how can you be so sure that torture won't continue?

Also, Vice-President Dick Cheney has proposed that the CIA specifically be excluded from the proposed McCain Detainee Amendment, which aims to limit the types of interrogation techniques used. In other words, the CIA can torture all they want in the future at their own discretion.

Here's the reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCain_Detainee_Amendment

Actually, why do I even bother talking to you? I think banging my head against a brick wall does less damage to my brain.

BillyBong SG

I thought the CIA have begun to use truth serums instead of abject torture.

More effective and less ugly.

Salman SG

First of all, did CIA use your methods?

Salman SG

Does truth serums work?

fudgester SG

How do you know they didn't?

Salman SG

A highly flawed and immature argument. You got to do better than this.

I think you are childish beyond words.

Just because it has been used through the ages, it doesn't mean that it works. Let's give an example: The Salem Withcraft Trials. All the people who confessed to withcraft did so not because thay were guilty but because they would be hanged if they were to plead innocent. At the very least, they would have been tortured for information which they don't have at all.

Really? How do you know they were all not guilty? Did you do a survey?
Are the CIA tortures the same as Salem?
Lets say info from a terrorist can prevent terrorism, what do you do? Sit there and do nothing? Wats ur alternative? Let innocent people die?

Mind you, at least one person died of torture without giving any information: Giles Corey. He was tortured by having heavy rocks piled on top of him and was demanded to give information WHICH HE DIDN'T HAVE. In the end, he died by giving just two words: 'More weight.'

Who is Giles Corey? What was he tortured for?

So many people have already told you: victims of torture will say and do anything just to get out of torture, including giving false information. In the case of Giles Corey, you don't even get any information at all.

Aha! So they will give information, it works.

What if one day you find YOURSELF being tortured for information WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE. Trust me, you won't be singing the same tune.

Don worry, CIA will know whether your info is real or not or if you truly are innocent.
Anyway, none of those CIA tortures are brutal or fatal. So where is teh copmparison? where is your case?

Wat abt the real terrorists? We don't torture them? How many are innocent? Do you have the figures?
Who is the hypocrite here?
And you still have no answers to the solution. How do you get info from terrorist that can save lives?

Really? How do they know if they were innocent? Where is your proof?
I think Abu Gharib was just fun, not torture. They won't die from playing human pyramid.

So even if terrorism isn't there, how can you be so sure that torture won't continue?

While we have terrorists, we better torture. Talk abt no torture only when you have no terrorism.

Also, Vice-President Dick Cheney has proposed that the CIA specifically be excluded from the proposed McCain Detainee Amendment, which aims to limit the types of interrogation techniques used. In other words, the CIA can torture all they want in the future at their own discretion.

Here's the reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCain_Detainee_Amendment

I fully agree with this cos infor from terroriusts can prevent etrrorism and you have yet to provide any alternative solution. You wil rather have terrorists killing more innocent people. That is perversion.

Actually, why do I even bother talking to you? I think banging my head against a brick wall does less damage to my brain.

You my friend are so stupid.
First of all, you claim torture doesn't work. Thats illogical.
You then create strawmen with talk abt barbaric tortures, things that CIA don't do.
Thirdly, you claim that innnocent people were tortured while providing no proofs of that.
Finally, you gave no solutiuon to the problem of how to get info from terrorists that can prevent more innocent from being murdered.

All that spells hypocrisy.