Australia considers taking S'pore to int'l court

last SG · 2005-11-21T15:36:47+00:00

for greater national security and interest, the OB markers have to be removed. we have a rule of law, let not some unspoken marker govern our society, if th...

sgdiehard SG

hehehe, finding me irritating? for showing you how others are thinking differently, for pointing out your misconceptions or for telling you where you have gone wrong? Really, there is nothing new from you on the subject matter to debate about.

1. But on the issue of our roots, it is not a matter of different opinion, it is a fact that you don't know anything about root and culture. Chinese civilization dated back as far as 3000 yrs ago but today, the chinese societies are still very much influenced by philosophies, such as confucism, traditional chinese religions such as taoism and ancestor worship and even buddism, which are all over 1500 yrs old. The pony tail was worn by the manchurian, the minority who ruled china for about 300yrs, beginning 1644, and is not the representative of chinese culture, and we do not look for our roots in the qing dynasty alone, we look way before that.

(Qing dynasty was the first time the west came into contact with china and can understand why angmoh's knowledge of china only started only from there.)

We do not use our root to determine what we should be, but from our root we know what we are, why we do things the way we do, why we are diff from the angmoh? Your root does not determine what you should be, but it does determine what you cannot be. If your surname is Tan u r a chinese but Tran then u r a vietnamese. Change yr surname to McCarthy and everybody will wonder what went wrong. Rolling Eyes

2. Law, legislations are all man made and are subjective. Judges can also be subjective. The laws in singapore are subjective so are the laws in Australia. One thing is clear and not subjective, laws of singapore broken in singapore will be dealt with according to the laws of singapore!! You don't need to do research to understand that, do you? now you know even CJ must also be bound by the law, you think suka suka anybody can say that our legislation is unnecessary?

3. Everybody is convinced that Nguyen acted "professionally" as a drug trafficker. Only big time dealer needs arms to protect their possession of drugs, but that is not smuggling or trafficking anymore! He would be nuts to carry arms in an airport with all the metal detectors around and when everybody is looking for terrorists...hey, do you really know what you are taking about?

sigh...you better know how to listen and learn, or you will never grow from where you are, doesn't matter whether you young or old. Crying or Very sad

ceecookie SG

Should we continue from here? Rolling Eyes

http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=165259

sbst275 SG

If they were to say we are barbaric, can we question how they treat the detainee of the recent arrest?

sgdiehard SG

There are also indian and the middle east civilization that go back thousands of years. Politics is part of civilization and democratic or not does not deny the existance of any civilization. What is yr point?

Ask the Indians why there have surnames like Thomas, I am not an indian, can' t tell you more. I see them as Asian, even if they were british citizens. How else would you see them?

sgdiehard SG

So Raffles or the East India Company is the rightful owner of singapore? Evil or Very Mad

sbst275 SG

British EIC lah

EIC belongs to the Dutch

pikamaster SG

Sgdiehard,

1) I called you irritating for lack of a better word. I don't fault others for thinkking differently, but that doesn't mean I agree to what they think. I accept it when people point out genuine inaccuracies in the facts I present, but you haven't done this so far. What you have been offering are conjectures.

Don't be the pot calling the kettle black. You haven't contributed any new point either.

2) Please, enough about the ponytails! The main point of my point regarding the ponytails wasn't regarding the ponytails!! Exclamation Mad So, if we look further, where do we go to? There are stuff older than confucianism and taoism, we can go on tracing backwards forever and ever. Perhaps I should have used hunting/ gathering and nomadic art or worshipping fish and having the mother as the head of the household. That would be in the Banpo Culture, 10000 - 5000 BC, which anyway proves your point wrong about Chinese culture originating 3000 years ago. That would be our roots too, wat earlier than confucianism.

4) What you can be is determined by yourself, not your roots. Genghis Khan conquered Europe, although he was Asian. The Spanish were Muslim for a long time under Turkish rule; they were so because they lost the war against the Turks. Your example holds a weakness: How do Vietnamese Americans or adopted Vietnamese children who acquire their foster surname be considered under your scheme of predefinition? Mr. Green

5) You miss the entire point of my discussion. Exclamation

6) Who is "Everyone"?

7) Your crocodile tears don't fool me. Evil or Very Mad

the (sad) pikamaster

iveco SG

I see them the same way as you do.

Wonder if there are any Indians browsing the forums who could enlighten me more.

ditzy SG

Alfresco Coffeshop
signup
Rahmania
Mr Soh
and many more.....

Take your pick Laughing

sgdiehard SG

hello,

1. this is not a thread on culture or root, and I will not write more than what has been written, just one question, why is Banpo culture your root? would Adam be your root? or would the monkeys be your root if you believe in evolution? Mr. Green

2. Ghenghis Khan can conquer Europe, but that didn't make him European. The spanish came under Turkish rule but that didn't make them Turks. Ask the Vietnamese Americans where is their roots? will they tell you America? As for foster vietnamese children, what is their roots depend on what their parents tell them. What did your parents tell you?

3. I din miss any point, just found no point.

4. is there anyone who think that Nguyen was not acting as a professional?

I won't want to spamm the forum now if there is nothing new to debate.

cheers

pikamaster SG

Sgdiehard,

*sigh*

1) Did you ask yourself that question before putting down the Shang Dynasty (3000 years ago) as our root?

2) You were saying that roots determine what we cannot be. Ok, Genghis Khan I admit wasn't a good example. But the point about Spain was that before the Turkish Invasion, Spain was Roman Catholic since the time of the Roman Empire. The Root of Spain was Roman Catholicism, but that didn't prevent conversion into Islam when the Muslims invaded. Before then, nobody in Europe had thought that Europe could become Muslim. And the Spanish Muslims probably never thought their children might become Christian again, but at any rate present-day Spain is back to being 94% Roman-Catholic by baptism. So the point was not about Genghis Khan or Spain per se, but that there is no limits, other than biological, that determine what we cannot be.

If we use our roots to determine what we cannot be, then We will become as isolationist as Ming and Qing China before the Opium Wars were. For our roots don't change, no matter how far into the future we look. Our roots merely determine our past, and our past determined our present, and in the end it is our present which will determine our future.

3) Then perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough, because your last reply showed extreme confusion. nvm, I shall explain it better in my next post.

4) You must be blind to think that there aren't. I shall not bother to elaborate this point - it has alreay been covered around this thread; just read through all the posts again.

Sigh,
the pikamaster

pikamaster SG

Soloken,

1) No matter how heterogeneous Europe is, it is comparably more homogeneous than Asia. After all, the boundaries of Asia were determined by the Europeans: simply put, what did not have a majority white population, was not Africa, and was not the New World bame known as Asia.

2) That's 1 point tt makes me confused: The politicians who claim that they will not "bow down to public sentiment to do what is right" still believe in "answering to the people"? How more hypocritical could it possibly be?

3) Read my replies to Sgdiehard on this issue.

4) I am always puzzled with the phrase "at the expense of other people's lives". Unlike the normal murder victim or abused wife/child/parent/maid, the "victims" of drug-trafficking only *seriously* have themselves to blame for their own habits. If they hadn't purchased the drug in the first place, they wouldn't have any harm done to themselves. It's like a fat person who sues Hershey's for producing chocolates. The difference between durg-addicts and pre-drug-addicts and their other victims, is that they *chose* the abusive agent. Kids, maids and wives who are abused don't ask for the beatings or burnings they receive from their employers or relatives, but there is an industry for drug-trafficking because most people who become addicts ASK to have the drug or ACCEPT it from a friend. It is never too late to quit a drug, unless of course you have been killed by it.

Anyway, I think that this tirade of a tough stance against drug-trafficking is merely a colossal excuse, as colossal as the legalizing of drugs. Colossal excuse for any government, not merely our own, just to show that I'm not biased against the government particularly. It is a colossal excuse to divert citizens' attention from the govt policies e.g. stressful, results-focused examination system, which are the toot determinants of DEMAND for the drugs.

Cheers,
the (unconvinced) pikamaster

sgdiehard SG

1. Chinese written history began about 3000 yrs ago when scripts on tortoise shell or animal bones were discovered. Now I know why chinese words are written the way they are. The scripts were depicting pictures and shape, not that of sound like english. It was 3000 yrs ago when lunar calendar was finalised, now I know why chinese new years do not fall on 1 Jan.
Can you now tell me why Banpo culture is your root?? Wink

2. Religion is part of culture, not The culture! bearing in mind, religions are universal, accepted by all races all over the world, religions do not change the culture or ethnicity of the believers. The Bible was translated into hundreds of different languages, the Bible does not force the believers to speak latin or greek. Why are the ppl in spain called Spaniard, not Turks?? why do they continue to speak spanish not turkish?? this is because the spaniard were holding on to their roots, the spanish culture!! what is your point? do you think by accepting christianity you can become italian, vatican, israelis or what??

It is the root from where you grow, but it is not just the biology, it involves your own mentality, in choosing what you think is good for you, in discarding your roots passed down from yr parents, it involves your ability, if you can finally become what you want to be and finally it involves the environment, how others look at you and accept you. Your choice.

Ginseng roots is good for vitality, lotus roots is good for soup, is you roots good for nothing?? or you don't know?

ENOUGH ABOUT ROOTS, back to hanging the drug traffickers.... Evil or Very Mad Mr. Green Laughing

sgdiehard SG

Sorry Soloken, steal your honor and pleasure in responding to such confused statement.

The politicians are singaporean politicians, the public sentiment is that of australian public.

The politicians in singapore do not bow to public sentiment in Australia, because they have to answer to the people in Singapore.

I see a (very confused and blurred) pikamaster. Laughing

pikamaster SG

Sgdiehard,

I think you seriously need to think a little more before you write me off as "(very confused and blurred)" Twisted Evil

Looking at this thread and a few others on this issue, as well as letters from the press, I see that the issue has become a very emotive one for Singaporeans as well. People like Chennooi and the 6 ppl who support his senseless petition are just as extremely irrational as the Australian opposition politician and/or newspaper editor who called for economic sanctions to be placed against Singapore. As such, any "answering to" done by our govt to either side will be an answering to public sentiment. To tell the truth, our govt itself is partially responsible for stroking up public sentiment down here as well.

the (dissappointed) pikamaster

pikamaster SG

Sgdiehard,

well, it happened to be YOU who started this argument over roots. I have no comment. Ya, let's get back to the proper issue. But just to conclude...

1) Banpo Culture is the root because it is one of the first records of Chinese Civilization in history. So it is when the Chinese started settling down into communities proper. There is actually an earlier Longshan Culture, but its information is scarce.

2) Vatican is Italian too. Mr. Green Israelis are Israelis because of their religion, it happens; of course, though, there are Jews who live in other parts of the world. And your example of Spain doesn't hold water. Spain did have a culture long before Rome conquered it, and that was a different sort of culture, a nomadic, pagan, sun-worshipping Culture, a tribal clan culture. (Note that I'm not just equating religion with culture here.)

I'll concede one thing to you though: Religion alone does not make up culture. Culture refers to a set of practices and social norms and these change with time and geographic region.

In my Spanish example, you must take note that the Muslim conquerors brought more than just their religion. The Muslim world had a culture which was more than just worshipping Allah 5 times a day. They brought religious tolerance, maths, astronomy and their Arabic literature over, as well as their Muslim architecture, art in itself. Spain may have converted back to Christianity, but it kept all those other cultural stuff bequeathed to it by the Muslims. The Roman Catholic Spain after the conquests was different from the Roman Catholic and Pagan Spain before the conquests. So the Muslim culture became assimilated into modern Spanish and European culture, even if the religion did not.

3 & 4) Now is this not the most confusing paragraph I have seen! Razz How someone develops is dependent on the influences he receives. Influences from the parents do not necessarily just include roots; they include other things which the parents have encoutnered and thus model in their behaviour. In fact, the parents themselves might have discarded some of their own roots. The same thing applies for grandparents and other elders.

Plant roots and historical roots are 2 different things. Plant roots are pre-determined anchors (unless you uproot the plant of course). Historical roots are bits that float around; They only constrain you if you allow them to. Your roots determine where you came from, or where you are coming from, the mentality bit perhaps, but they don't constrain where you go.

Perhaps a better analogy than Ginseng and Lotus is the grape vine. The roots of the grape vine are used to prop the vine on the tree, rock or fence it grows on, but they don't prevent the vine from climbing/ growing out in any direction it desires. The roots themselves aren't used for the same purposes as the roots of the Ginseng or Lotus, but everybody knows what its fruits - growing on a stem supported by the roots and external supports - are made into : wine, raisins, medicines for heart disease. The roots are used to cling on to external supports to provide stability that allows the vine to grow outwards toward the sun. Similarly, a person has his historical roots so that he find others with similar roots and have a stable base to begin his growth. But once he starts to grow, he carries those roots along with him, and absorbs other influences from elsewhere; he should not allow the roots to keep him static and unchanging. Where we come from does not determine where we will go.

5) Ya Ya, I will welcome such a transition... *phew*

the pikamaster

dreameryb SG

I signed the petition, though I am not a Singaporean.

I, too am disgusted by the haughtiness of Australia and the West at large in hectoring us into buying their systems and beliefs. They should learn to respect the decisions made by another sovereign within its own judicial systems.

Back off, you fools!!!!

Originally posted by chenniooi:

In insisting that Singapore is run by an authoritarian government, Australia has effectively discredited and discounted ALL the citizens of Singapore! Branding them as sheep and mindless (spineless?)!

I do not think that I am afraid of my own Government, I do not that that I live in fear! I do not voice anything in dissent of the Government is because i AGREE with most of the policies and initiatives that the Singapore Government has carried out. I really believe in the reason and logic behind each decision and I DO think them through myself before coming to an agreement or not!

I am insulted that the Australia constantly belittles me and my fellow citizens. It seems that it is inconceivable to them that others do not think like them. What Australia has been indulging recently in her attacks on Singapore smells suspiciously like racism, intolerance and discrimination.

Well, I would like to tell Australia that I agree with the verdict and the sentence given to Nguyen and I believe in the death penalty! Now, are you going to try to "convert" me? To try to "preach" and spread your own "gospel"?

But I have my rights! Singapore is a democratic and free country and I have my rights to my own thoughts and opinions, my own belief system. So, in this aspect, Australia has NO say in HOW I THINK! Australia has NO say in HOW I LIVE MY LIFE IN SINGAPORE! Australia has NO stake in Singapore and therefore what she thinks and says and believe doesn't really count for anything!

Singapore...sign the petition below and show your disgust of Australia's boorish, bullying ways! Show them what their opinions and desires and demands count for here!

(Sorry for ranting...for a more calmer posting...go to my topice "Should there be Double Standards in our Courts of Law?)

[b]Go to http://www.PetitionOnline.com/SSS01/petition.html

To: The Citizens of Singapore

SHOW your support for the sovereignty of our country, for the powers of our courts, and for the fairness of our justice system!

Say NO to foreign intervention and interference! No to unwarranted insults, media bashing and derision from foreign entities and countries that have no respect for our country, our way of life!

NO to foreigners demanding special treatments, extraordinary waivers!

SHOW your rejection of those who only seek to hurt us, discredit us at ALL cost simply to achieve their unreasonable demands.

The continuous wrangling and demands from Australia for special consideration/treatment in the case of convicted heroin smuggler Nguyen Tuong Van, who is due to be hanged, has revealed the extent of the regard Australia has for Singapore and our laws, courts, and way of life.

With hardly any consideration for the sovereignty of our written laws and the fairness of our justice system, Australia has, like a bully, insisted that we treat Nguyen differently from all other criminals in Singapore, be it foreigners or locals, simply, it seems, because he has an Australian passport.

While the Singapores steadfast, legal and fair position on this case is lost to Australia, Australia ups the bullying ante and has gone international in its attempts to discredit us, to diminish our courts of law and to influence/interfere in the very local societal rules that we live by!

With continual Singapore-bashing in the Australian media and now, threats of hauling us to the International Court of Justice, Australia seems determined to impose on us what she deems as "right" and "wrong", and that we should bend backwards for her even when there is no merit in the request. While all these smack of (Western?) imperialism, it is made especially more pertinent since the citizens of Singapore live under the very same laws that convicted Nguyen. Is Australia suggesting that because Nguyen carries an Australian passport, he is therefore above our laws? And that we must employ double standards one for locals and another for Australians/foreigners?

NO!

We sign this petition as a show of faith in our laws and courts, in our justice system!

We sign this petition as a show of faith in our position in this travesty!

We sign this petition as a show of unity against unreasonable demands from Singapore!

Go to http://www.PetitionOnline.com/SSS01/petition.html
[/b]

chikopek SG

Australia acted as if they wants Singapore to change their law so that Australians can do whatever crime they like in Singapore and let off scot free Evil or Very Mad

Moonstriker SG

ya...

US tried the same with Michael Fay.. but useless also.. manage to only lighten by 1 or 2 strokes.. which makes no diff to me... still painful..

Boycott of S'pore coys if execution continues, doesn't that sound like a big open threat to us? And is that howard fella gonna do anything to prevent it?

iveco SG

Don’t sign Chennooi’s petition. It makes you as base as those irrational Australians.

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