Awareness of gay issues in S'pore: A political perspective

last SG · 2005-08-01T21:17:38+00:00

Thread closed as requested by thread starter

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
I'm gay.. I thought I've said that many times.. ha..

My agenda.. To allow the more progressive human-kind (straights or gays) to understand the issues surrounding homosexuality..

btw, I did not argue that homosexuality is good.. or bad.. a point which I've brought up countless times.. It's like handedness.. Centuries ago, left-handed people are labelled witches.. It though many many years of scientific research and the raise of awareness to allow understanding issues related to handedness..

For the African-American, it was accepted that they are slaves and need to serve their White counterparts.. It again takes centruries for them to fight against such discrimination..

whether you are left-handed or whether you are african americans have nothing to do with morality or vales..

As for moral values.. I have posted an article earlier to define what's morality.. do go take a look..

I'm not saying that all gays are moral, or all gays are immoral (this would be a EH question).. but i'm saying that whether someone is moral or not has nothing to do with their sexual orientation..

So your agenda is to "allow the more progressive human-kind (straights or gays) to understand the issues surrounding homosexuality" ?

You have started by being defensive in assuming that HOMOSEXUALITY is not understood by human-kind.

If HOMOSEXUALITY, or SEXUAL ORIENTATION, and SEX is not about MORALS - what else can it be ?

The fabric of any SOCIETY is based on MORALS, without which all HUMANS might as well be sub-species.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Okay, read the china article.. Hmm, even though it's a religious site.. thought they are pretty progessive about things..

If u read clearly.. they recognise that they are gays in China.. and in order to counter the spread of the disease in the gay comm.. The Chinese government need to address this issue separately..

In fact, their position is not dissimilar from the article I've posted earlier.. About the conference to be held in Malaysia..

However, China had decriminalised gays 5 years ago.. This is the first step towards a more tolerant society.. Yes, we cannot expect all Chinese to suddenly accept homosexuality as part of the sexual continuum.. However, this is just the first step.. It will take another 10 or 20 years for the society to learn and to understand..

In order for the society to learn.. there must voices from the gay comm must be heard (which incidentally is the same position of the article you have posted).. if the gay comm is constanly ignored.. the root of the problem will not be addressed.. and the HIV spread will still continue..

Locally, there are gays who volunteered their time at AFA to help promote safe sex.. This group functions independently from the rest of the groups.. so that gays can be targetted for "practice safe sex" (anti casual sex, use condom, regular screening for AIDS, etc) campaign..

China has been forced by the EXPLODING THREAT OF AN AIDS EPIDEMIC if the issue of HOMOSEXUALITY is not dealt with in an OPEN MANNER.

Surprisingly, according to historical text, homosexuality was quietly celebrated in Ancient China by severl Emperors, with many writen poetic records of such "happenings" - and this had occurred through the dynastic rule of several emperors.

It was only during the rise of Communism and its sweeping puritan rule that drove HOMOSEXUALISM underground.

Yes, the respective Governments of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore are all recognising the fact that there are those "special Citizens", who have different behaviourial and intellectual sexual orientations, and each governments are taking different routes to recognise and accomodate these "special Citizens" - without disrupting the Moral Fabric of each Society.

All these "progressive" moves towards 'accomodation' was not due to a sense of altruistic charity towards the HOMOSEXUAL community, but for the larger interests of bringing this HOMOSEXUAL ISSUE into the OPEN.

This is to allow a better control on the activities of HOMOSEXUALS, and also to encourage social acceptance so as to change the dangerous HOMOSEXUAL "LIFESTYLE" to a more "normal" heterosexual one; all done with the pragmatic purpose of controlling and wiping out AIDS from all the countries mentioned.

This is the pragmatic essence of the Asian Way.

Traditional views towards Homosexuality in China's Society
http://www.oldion.com/articles/Homosexuality_in_China

boy in blues SG

gayism has no purpose in procreation.
it is a useless indulgence in unorthodox sex for the sheer heck of it with no constructive motive.
if every human practiced it, we'd be extinct before mountain gorillas go.
at least they're smarter

Atobe SG

Originally posted by iveco:

Originally posted by Atobe:
Your continued references to social and policy developments and changes in Western Societies only reinforce this perception of your effort to undermine the social and moral values that are unique to our Asian environment.

Is homosexuality something learned from the West? Can you try explaining the presence of gay Chinese emperors in history?

I feel that the present attitude towards gays is a by-product of the turbulent 1960s era of counterculture. Back then, Singapore had just become independent and LKY was seeking to eliminate all elements of European (or Birtish) influence on Singapore. Since it was fashionable during the flower-power Beatles era to be gay, it was seen as blindly aping the West, which by then, had fallen into decadence. The anti-colonial mindset that everything from the West was terrible has more or less been indoctrinated into subsequent generations.
Did you misunderstand my reply to earthling73 ?

Nothing in my post had indicated that "homosexuality is something learned from the West" .

Unfortunately, the present day values and moral excuses that are brought forward to defend the HOMOSEXUAL attitudes are very much borrowed and learnt from the liberal values and morals of the West.

Homosexualism did not simply crop up when 1960 fell on us.

It has existed throughout the history of the World, and has even been referred to and mentioned repeatedly in the Christian Holy Bible - which is written more then 2,005 years ago.

Homosexuals in the USA had also to live a very discreet lifestyle, and their preferred sexual orientation is more discreetly handled, and little attempts were made by the Homosexuals and Lesbians of the 1960s to push society for more social space.

The very famous Hollywood actor of the 1960s, Rock Hudson was hero worshipped as the typical stereo type of a modern Male, who will be most successful in stopping a Woman's heart beat; and he was also loved by most women in the many roles that typecast him into a macho-romantic male.

How ironical, that it was only after his death - due to AIDS - that it was openly acknowledged that he was never a "Straight", but has been living a discreet HOMOSEXUAL lifestyle, with a male live-in partner.

With the numbers of AIDS stricken patients rising, it will not be too long before a backlash will occur against the SEXUALLY PROMISCUOUS AND DEVIATIONISTIC.

"WATCH YOUR BACK" will carry a more potent meaning Exclamation

Rock Hudson - 1925-1985
http://rockhudson.blogspot.com/

Atobe SG

:
Your saying that it is not natural because sex is a conscious act is like saying its not natural to be straight either because sex is a conscious act. So u're saying that attraction to same sex is not controllable but one can control having sex with the same sex? Then why dun straight people control themselves also? Why should people with an uncontrollable attraction to the same gender go ahead and have sex while people who have an uncontrollable attraction to the same gender control themselves? Double standards? Hypocrisy? Heterosexualism? This is just downright disgusting, this sort of double standards.

:
Homosexuality does not refer to homosexual acts. Homosexuality refers to a person being attracted to another person of the same gender. I'm surprised u cannot differentiate distinctly between the 2 different terms and their definations. That again is your fallacy, and where your argument flounders because u don't even understand the terms and definations.

Can attraction to the same gender be uncontrollable ?

Is this behaviour unchangeable ?

How does some child learn to talk earlier than others, while other children continue with their babble ?

Is it due to the intelligence level of each child, or the environment and opportunities that are available to the respective children ?

Can a Left-Handed Person not be taught to use his Right Hand as well ?

Have you not heard of someone being 'AMBIDEXTROUS' - meaning the ability and skills to use both hands effectively ?

All can be achieved through teaching with patience on one side, and diligent learning from the other.

Every major Asian Religion believe that HOMOSEXUALISM is UN-NATURAL, and is harmful to the HOMOSEXUAL, as well as to the Community, Society and Country.

Every Asian Society bear the same attitude of indifference and unspoken tolerance - a live and let live attitude - towards the HOMOSEXUALS and the LESBIANS.

Unfortunately, the HOMOSEXUAL and LESBIANS efforts to continue with their aggressive push for legitimacy can serve only to undermine the fabric of Social Morals.

It will also subvert the curious minds of innocent adolescent.

earthlings73 SG

hey.. the practice "quoting yourself" is such a bad habit.. Laughing i'd expect more from you..

earthlings73 SG

err.. you mean gays can have sex all day without:

1) the need of a job?
2) the need of a place to reside?
3) the need to ensure that one's assets are properly passed on to the intended parties?

Laughing

Yes, sex is an important part of life.. isn't this the position the Government is trying to preach? In a few months time, Singapore will be holding our very own Sex Exhibition at Expo.. Will that be an political issue then?

And the issue on Casino.. Why did it become a hot topic in this forum? Why is it not considered as a sin and moved over to Eternal Hope? Laughing

Because just like the gay issues, it has important social and political implications..

But then, I urge all users to avoid going into theology (whether you are gays, straights who are pro-gays, straights who are anti-gays or closeted gays who are anti-gays).. Leave such discussion to EH.. Loads of people are willing to talk to you there.. Smile

earthlings73 SG

Heng did not invent the term Heterosexism. It's refer to the anti-gays sentiments at a societal level. Razz I dont think it's fair to call someone bullshitting without doing a thorough research on this area.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/prej_defn.html

Heterosexism Around the same time, heterosexism began to be used as a term analogous to sexism and racism, describing an ideological system that denies, denigrates, and stigmatizes any nonheterosexual form of behavior, identity, relationship, or community (Herek, 1990). Using the term heterosexism highlights the parallels between antigay sentiment and other forms of prejudice, such as racism, antisemitism, and sexism.
Like institutional racism and sexism, heterosexism pervades societal customs and institutions. It operates through a dual process of invisibility and attack. Homosexuality usually remains culturally invisible; when people who engage in homosexual behavior or who are identified as homosexual become visible, they are subject to attack by society.

Examples of heterosexism in the United States include the continuing ban against lesbian and gay military personnel; widespread lack of legal protection from antigay discrimination in employment, housing, and services; hostility to lesbian and gay committed relationships, recently dramatized by passage of federal and state laws against same-gender marriage; and the existence of sodomy laws in more than one-third of the states.

Although usage of the two words has not been uniform, homophobia has typically been employed to describe individual antigay attitudes and behaviors whereas heterosexism has referred to societal-level ideologies and patterns of institutionalized oppression of non-heterosexual people.

And she did not psychoanalyse you.. Psychoanalysis is a field in Psychology found by Freud.. I will talk about it a little bit later..

But then, there are scientific studies to suggest that homophobic males do react sexually when they are exposed to pictures of male genitals.. Twisted Evil Mr. Green
http://www.oogachaga.com/downloads/homophobia_and_homosexual_arousal.pdf

earthlings73 SG

Originally posted by Atobe:

The speculation had been that AIDS had originally infected the sub-species - like the apes, which happened to be in the food chain of the African diet.

It is acknowledged that Africa is the source of AIDS from which maritime workers first caught the disease and spread it unwittingly through the continents.

However, when AIDS was first detected, it was the HOMOSEXUAL (not the LESBIAN nor the HETEROSEXUAL) community which had the highest detection rate of AIDS sufferers.

It was only when knowledge and understanding of AIDS became more intense that more discoveries from the HETEROSEXUAL community were made, but still the LESBIAN community do not seem to be so badly infected - UNLESS the Lesbians had sexual relations with infected males.

[b]Try reading this article that is dated 25 August 2005 : - the following is only a partial extract from the publication:

The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS01B1&v=PRINT

Gay Bowel Syndrome (GBS):[32] The Journal of the American Medical Association refers to GBS problems such as proctitis, proctocolitis, and enteritis as "sexually transmitted gastrointestinal syndromes."[33] Many of the bacterial and protozoa pathogens that cause gbs are found in feces and transmitted to the digestive system: According to the pro-homosexual text Anal Pleasure and Health, "[s]exual activities provide many opportunities for tiny amounts of contaminated feces to find their way into the mouth of a sexual partner . . . The most direct route is oral-anal contact."[34]

· Proctitis and Proctocolitis are inflammations of the rectum and colon that cause pain, bloody rectal discharge and rectal spasms. Proctitis is associated with STDs such as gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and syphilis that are widespread among homosexuals.[35] The Sexually Transmitted Disease Information Center of the Journal of the American Medical Association reports that "[p]roctitis occurs predominantly among persons who participate in anal intercourse."
[/b]

Ah.. Finally you understood that AIDS is not a gay problem.. Laughing In the article that I've quoted, there are even earlier cases than the HIV epidemic happened in US in the 1980s.. And there you go, lesbians will have less chance to contact HIV because there's no penetration.. So r u going to argue you can accept lesbians more than straights?

As for your second point, I do agree with you to a certain degree.. We know that 30% of HIV patients are gays.. which should be higher than the population base rate of 10% (estimation).. But then, what drives such promiscuity in the gay comm? Isnt it related back to:

1) marriage
2) housing

When straights decide to settle down, what would they do? Get married.
And what's the first thing in their agenda? Housing. It's pretty sad in the gay comm that a relationship seems to be in a perpetual courtship without the chance of settling down..

However, all these need to wait.. the society can't change overnight.. But then, to address this issue.. it must be confronted head on.. to educate the gay comm about the risk of sexual transmitted disease instead of just empty talk.. =p

In fact, I've just signed up for Action for Aids.. To help them out to spreading the importance of prevention.. =p I believe all of us can make a difference to the society..

earthlings73 SG

Wah.. I thought I've stayed rather reasonable and composed throught this discussion.. In face of all the insults hurled at me.. Without the need to resort to CAPITALISE accusations at anyone.. Laughing

And now I'm being labelled as defensive.. Crying or Very sad Someone is defensive only when he or she refuse to buy in to an argument without closely examining all the evidences put forth.. However, I did spend time reading all the articles you have posted and addressed them point by point without avoiding any issues in the process..

I even supported ben's stand that the removal of homosexuality from DSM has nothing to do with whether gays are borned or not. I even cautioned iveco about the seemingly lower % of HIV patients who are gays..

Sigh.. Am very sad indeed.. With all these insults and baseless accusations

earthlings73 SG

Originally posted by Atobe:

China has been forced by the EXPLODING THREAT OF AN AIDS EPIDEMIC if the issue of HOMOSEXUALITY is not dealt with in an OPEN MANNER.

Surprisingly, according to historical text, homosexuality was quietly celebrated in Ancient China by severl Emperors, with many writen poetic records of such "happenings" - and this had occurred through the dynastic rule of several emperors.

It was only during the rise of Communism and its sweeping puritan rule that drove HOMOSEXUALISM underground.

Yes, the respective Governments of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore are all recognising the fact that there are those "special Citizens", who have different behaviourial and intellectual sexual orientations, and each governments are taking different routes to recognise and accomodate these "special Citizens" - without disrupting the Moral Fabric of each Society.

All these "progressive" moves towards 'accomodation' was not due to a sense of altruistic charity towards the HOMOSEXUAL community, but for the larger interests of bringing this HOMOSEXUAL ISSUE into the OPEN.

This is to allow a better control on the activities of HOMOSEXUALS, and also to encourage social acceptance so as to change the dangerous HOMOSEXUAL "LIFESTYLE" to a more "normal" heterosexual one; all done with the pragmatic purpose of controlling and wiping out AIDS from all the countries mentioned.

This is the pragmatic essence of the Asian Way.

[b]Traditional views towards Homosexuality in China's Society
http://www.oldion.com/articles/Homosexuality_in_China

[/b]

Wah.. How did you manage to come to this conclusion while reading the website you had posted? Laughing

But thanks for highlighting this website.. =p Some excerpts from the website:

Same-sex love was celebrated in Chinese art, many examples of which have survived the book burnings of the Cultural Revolution. Though no large statues are known to still exist, many hand scrolls and paintings on silk can be found in private collections[2].

In the year 1944, the scholar Sun Cizhou published a work stated that one of the most famous ancient Chinese poets, Qu Yuan, was a lover of his King. Sun cited the poetry of Qu Yuan to prove his claim. In Qu Yuan's most important work Li Sao (Sorrow of parting), Qu Yuan called himself a beautiful man (or woman, mei ren). A word he used to describe his king was used at that time by women to characterize their lovers.

Since the policy of Reform and Opening Up in 1979, the communist party has been loosening its control over this kind of behavior. But the practice of homosexuality is still libeled as a "moldering life style of capitalism".

A notable change occurred during the late 1990s and early 2000s, when sodomy was decriminalized in 1997, and the new Chinese Classification and Diagnostic Criteria of Mental Disorders removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses on April 20, 2001. The situation has continued to evolve in 2004. Many consider the magazine "Menbox" [3] to be a gay magazine in all but name. Recently, a transsexual woman, Chen Lili was allowed to compete in the China selection pageant for the Miss Universe competition.

An internet survey in 2000 showed that Chinese people are becoming more tolerant towards homosexuality: among the 10,792 surveyed, 48.15% were in favor, 30.9% disapproved, 14.46% were uncertain, and 7.26% were indifferent. There are no radical conservatives or radical liberation activists, so gay-bashing is rare. But some scholars complain that the government is too indifferent on this issue, doing nothing to promote the situation of homosexuality in China. During the 2002 Gay Games, only 2 persons from the mainland were sent to take part in, and apart from gay websites the media gave little coverage to the event. Many gay men admit having unsafe sex, and more than one sex partner, which worsens the spread of AIDS in China, because the Chinese government makes little effort to educate citizens about the danger of AIDS among gay people. The authorities still refuse to promote either gay issues or gay rights in China. Although there is no explicit law against homosexuality or same-sex acts between consenting adults, neither are there laws protecting gays from discrimination, nor are there any gay rights organizations in the PRC.

I do not disagree with you on certain principles:

To address the issue, you have to recognise the issue. I have posted the article about Asia-Pac's efforts to recognise the need to address that special efforts need to be targetted at the gay comm. But then, to address this, the government need to realise that there are gays in the society, which is by itself an affirmation of the existence of gays. But then, it's important to educate gays about safe sex practices.

But I disagree with you on one issue:

The position from accepting that there are gays and special efforts are needed to address the issue do not mean that they are targetting at changing their orientation.. This is a logical leap.. Nothing in the article I've read suggested such a stand at all..

dreameryb SG

When will people understand that sexual orientation is not driven by morals. Homosexuality is a natural manifestation of human existence as has been more or less proven by rigourous reseach in psychology and nuroscience. People should realize this asap, for their own sanity and most importantly for the well-being of their fellow human beings who happen to be homosexuals.

And speaking of morals, wouldn't an essential moral code of a civilized society be the tolerance of an innocuous minority?

earthlings73 SG

Originally posted by Atobe:
Originally posted by iveco:[b]

Is homosexuality something learned from the West? Can you try explaining the presence of gay Chinese emperors in history?

I feel that the present attitude towards gays is a by-product of the turbulent 1960s era of counterculture. Back then, Singapore had just become independent and LKY was seeking to eliminate all elements of European (or Birtish) influence on Singapore. Since it was fashionable during the flower-power Beatles era to be gay, it was seen as blindly aping the West, which by then, had fallen into decadence. The anti-colonial mindset that everything from the West was terrible has more or less been indoctrinated into subsequent generations.
Did you misunderstand my reply to earthling73 ?

Nothing in my post had indicated that "homosexuality is something learned from the West" .

Unfortunately, the present day values and moral excuses that are brought forward to defend the HOMOSEXUAL attitudes are very much borrowed and learnt from the liberal values and morals of the West.

Homosexualism did not simply crop up when 1960 fell on us.

It has existed throughout the history of the World, and has even been referred to and mentioned repeatedly in the Christian Holy Bible - which is written more then 2,005 years ago.

Homosexuals in the USA had also to live a very discreet lifestyle, and their preferred sexual orientation is more discreetly handled, and little attempts were made by the Homosexuals and Lesbians of the 1960s to push society for more social space.

The very famous Hollywood actor of the 1960s, Rock Hudson was hero worshipped as the typical stereo type of a modern Male, who will be most successful in stopping a Woman's heart beat; and he was also loved by most women in the many roles that typecast him into a macho-romantic male.

How ironical, that it was only after his death - due to AIDS - that it was openly acknowledged that he was never a "Straight", but has been living a discreet HOMOSEXUAL lifestyle, with a male live-in partner.

With the numbers of AIDS stricken patients rising, it will not be too long before a backlash will occur against the SEXUALLY PROMISCUOUS AND DEVIATIONISTIC.

"WATCH YOUR BACK" will carry a more potent meaning

[b]Rock Hudson - 1925-1985
http://rockhudson.blogspot.com/

[/b]

Ah, another attempt to instill fear and homophobia, I see..

Remember the China article you had posted?

Homosexuality has been documented in China since ancient times. According the scholar Ji Yun of the Qing Dynasty, already at the very beginning Huang Di (The Yellow Emperor, 2697? - 2597? BCE), legendary king and founder of the Chinese culture, had male lovers. This is naturally not very trustworthy because whether there was really a person called Huang Di is not very clear. Two notable royal examples come from a formulaic expression, yÃºtÃ¡o duÃ nxiÃ¹ (ä½æ¡æè¢). YÃºtÃ¡o, or "the leftover peach", recorded in Hanfeizi, speaks of Mi Zixia (å½åç), a beautiful youth cherished by Duke Ling of Wei (è¡éå¬) who once shared an already bitten but very delicious peach with the duke, who appreciated the gesture (although once the growing Mi Zixia lost his beauty, the duke looked back on this event and said Mi was being insincere [1].) DuÃ nxiÃ¹, or "breaking the sleeve", refers to Emperor Ai of Han China's act of cutting his sleeve, on which his adored male concubine Dongxian (è£è³¢) was sleeping, in order not to wake him.

Scholar Pan Guangdan (æ½åæ¦) came to the conclusion that nearly every emperor in the Han Dynasty had one or more male sex partners. There are also descriptions of lesbians in some history books. It is believed homosexuality was popular in the Song, Ming and Qing dynasties. Chinese homosexuals did not experience high-profile persecution comparing with that was received by homosexuals in Europe during the Middle Ages.

Then, China borrowed the values/morals from the West, which includes homophobia:

The first law against homosexuals in China went into effect in 1740. There was no record in the history as to how effectively the law was enforced. The more devastating thing for Chinese homosexuals was, ironically, the enlightenment that came after the Self-Strengthening Movement, when homophobia was imported to China along with Western science and philosophy.

Now China had delisted homosexuality from their list of mental disorders, and decriminalised homosexuality.. And mind you, as a communist regime, they are mindful about carefully research into such areas through scientific means before deciding on what position they should take.. Laughing China, as far as I know, is one country that will not Kow Tow to another country in the politics of the modern world..

earthlings73 SG

If both of us can't settle this arguments, let's listen to the professionals.. =p

[quote]Proponents
Various religious and ex-gay organizations, including PFOX, Exodus International, NARTH and the International Healing Foundation, as well as various minor ex-gay and transformational ministries advocate the belief that reparative therapy is genuine and works.

Conversion therapies are also advocated by various religious family values groups such as the Family Research Council and Focus on the Family.

Specific proponents, such as Charles Socarides, often have gay sons, leading some to suspect they are working out their own psychological issues in public through their advocacy of a therapy that doesn't work.

Opponents
Reparative therapies are opposed by a variety of groups, including gay rights organizations such as GLAAD, Stonewall and Outrage.

More importantly, many various professional medical and psychological bodies condemn conversion therapies. Such bodies include:

American Psychiatric Association (APA)
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Medical Association
American Psychological Association
American Counseling Association
American Federation of Teachers
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Social Workers
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Education Association
Royal College of Nursing.
On the question of whether therapy can change sexual orientation the APA answers:

"No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." [4] (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#cantherapychange)
Some religious organisations also oppose reparative therapies, including The Interfaith Alliance, New Ways Ministries and People for the American Way.

In 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association developed and endorsed a statement reading:

The most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes known as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.' ...health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through 'reparative therapy' and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.[quote]

earthlings73 SG

Your statement will render the entire system of meritrocracy useless.. Laughing The Government started the scholarship program simply because they recognised that different people have different learning capacities..

And what if a person is borned mentally challenged? Will you be able to teach him so that he can earn a scholarship?

At school, we all know that there are certain people who are bright enough to do well with very minimal study.

At work, we are all aware that there are talented staff who can handle work with ease compared to the others.

Is this purely due to environment?

Btw, I've not addressed one of the "environmental theory" in the site you had posted.. Will do so later..

Can a Left-Handed Person not be taught to use his Right Hand as well ?

Have you not heard of someone being 'AMBIDEXTROUS' - meaning the ability and skills to use both hands effectively ?

All can be achieved through teaching with patience on one side, and diligent learning from the other.

Uhuh.. that's why Kinsey proposed the idea of sexual continuum:

Homosexual - Bisexual - Heterosexual..

He designed a questionnaire in the 40s with this idea that each of us fall along this continuum of sexuality.. Just they are are left-handers, ambidextrous individuals, and right handers..

Have you tried to convert yourself to left-handed before?

And with the world so right-handers bias, why would so many left handers still stick to using the left hand?

Are you trying to argue that since one can change his handedness easily, why should we care about the left-handers?

Every major Asian Religion believe that HOMOSEXUALISM is UN-NATURAL, and is harmful to the HOMOSEXUAL, as well as to the Community, Society and Country.

Every Asian Society bear the same attitude of indifference and unspoken tolerance - a live and let live attitude - towards the HOMOSEXUALS and the LESBIANS.

Ah.. Another blatant sweeping statement without clear justifications.. A concrete proof that you did not read the article I've posted about Dalai Lama's position in Homosexuality:

Dalai Lama urges 'respect, compassion, and full human rights for all,' including gays

http://quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm

earthlings73 SG

More on Asian Religions' views on Homosexuality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

Buddhism
One of the five precepts of Buddhism states that one is to refrain from sexual misconduct or, more accurately, one is to refrain from indulging in sexual desire. Most Buddhist schools construe this to mean that monks and nuns are to practice celibacy. However, there has been a diversity of opinions on this matter ranging from strict vows of celibacy to Japanese Buddhist schools that taught heterosexuality was to be avoided for clergy.

For laypersons today, this precept mainly applies to adultery. However, wide ranges of interpretations are possible about what exactly constitutes "sexual misconduct" and therefore the different schools of Buddhism - or even different individual monks - at different periods of time have offered varying opinions.

Interpretations of what constitutes misconduct include sex outside marriage (relatively modern idea), sex with another person without the consent of your life partner(s), or the historically prevalent view that it was limited to describe rape, incest and bestiality.

Buddhist schools condemning homosexuality is a recent development and there is no scriptural basis upon which it is to be condemned. Prior to colonialism under Abrahamic countries homosexuality was sanctified by Buddhist leaders throughout Asia.

Different countries held various views, for example in China where believers often belong to Confucianism as well, exclusive homosexuality was discouraged because it would prevent a son from carrying out his Confucian religious duty to reproduce, all at the same time non-exclusive homosexuality was permissible and widely practiced. Monogamy was an unsual and foreign idea to many Asians until contact with the West.

Within Japanese traditions homosexuality was said to have been started by the Bodhisattva Manjusri of wisdom and the sage Kukai while in China it is attributed to the Yellow Emperor, the father of China.

In India, Tibet, China, Southeast Asia and Japan, areas where Buddhism was or remains one of the chief religions their cultures have been historically unconcerned with the gender of sexual activity or the object of desire.

Taoism

Homosexuality is not forbidden by the Taoist Holy Books (the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuang Zi). However, many Taoists believe that exclusive homosexuality is wrong, but many others see nothing wrong with it.

To understand why this is, one must understand Taoism's intertwined status with Confucianism and Buddhism in many adherents. A great many Taoists combine Confucian thought that requires sons to further the family lineage by reproduction.

Both Taoism and Buddhism do not forbid exclusive homosexuality but Confucianism did by insisting that a sons religious duty included reproduction to further the family lineage. Taoists who find nothing wrong with exclusive homosexuality usually do not believe in Confucianism or have dropped their requirement of heterosexual relations due to medicinal advancements that allow reproduction without such sex, using IVF and/or surrogacy.

This has been the traditional view of homosexuality in Taoism, that homosexual acts in it self are not wrong but all men are still required to reproduce. For example, Taoists may have homosexual relations as long as they continue the family tree by having a child with at least one woman.

Hinduism

Monk performing auparashtika on a visiting prince. Khajuraho, Madhya Pradesh.Main article: Homosexuality and Hinduism

The Indian Kama Sutra written in the third century CE contains passages describing hijras performing oral sex to men with tips to maximize pleasure. Prior to British colonization of India hijras were not the only homosexual activity, many engaged in a form of pederasty which was openly practiced by Muslims and Sikhs in the north while being overlooked in the south by Hindus. The terms gand-mara (anus beater), gando (ass-taker) and ganga ("anuser") were coined during this time period. During British control Hinduism became markedly antagonistic to homosexuality.

In Hinduism many divinities are androgynous with some changing sex to participate in homoerotic behavior.

earthlings73 SG

And moral can exist independent of Religion.. This is a psychologist's version of what constitute morality.. Do pay attention to stage 5.. A person can go either way depending on circumstances.. It's hard to divide the world into the blacks and the whites.. There are many things that fall between.. It depends on the basis in which u come up with the reasoning..

Kohlberg's stages of moral development
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Kohlberg's stages of moral development were developed by Lawrence Kohlberg to explain the development of moral reasoning. He created it while at University of Chicago when becoming fascinated with children's reactions to moral dilemmas. He wrote his doctoral dissertation there in 1958, outlining what is now his stages of moral development.

Kohlberg's theory holds that moral reasoning, which he thought to be the basis for ethical behavior, has developmental stages. Building upon Jean Piaget's previous work, he concluded that there are six identifiable stages of moral development. Later his model was revised and reduced to five stages given there was a lack reponses in studies owning to a clear boundary of the last stage of moral development.

Contents [hide]
1 Stages
1.1 Pre-Conventional
1.2 Conventional
1.3 Post-Conventional
1.4 Other
2 Examples
3 Theoretical assumptions
4 Criticism
5 External link

[edit]
Stages
Kohlberg's stages were broken into 3 different levels, pre-conventional, conventional and post-conventional. According to his model it is not possible to regress backwards in stages. It is also not possible to 'jump' stages; each stage provides new perspective and is "more comprehensive, differentiated and integrated than its predecessors."

Other models resemble Kohlberg's, including James Fowler's six stages of faith and Jane Loevinger's nine stages of ego development.

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
2. Self-interest orientation
Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
(a.k.a. The good boy/good girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
(a.k.a. Law and order morality)
Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles
(a.k.a. Principled conscience)
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Pre-Conventional
The pre-conventional level of moral reasoning is especially common in children, although adults can also exhibit this level of reasoning. Reasoners in the pre-conventional level judge the morality of an action by its direct consequences. The pre-conventional level consists of the first and second stage of moral development.

Stage one, individuals focus on the direct consequences that their actions will have for themselves. For example, they think that an action is morally wrong if the person who commits it gets punished.
Stage two espouses the what's in it for me position; right behavior being defined by what is in one's own best interest. Stage two reasoning shows a limited interest in the needs of others, but only to a point where it might further one's own interests, such as "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." Concern for others is not based on loyalty or intrinsic respect in stage two.
[edit]
Conventional
The conventional level of moral reasoning is typical of adolescents and adults. Persons who reason in a conventional way judge the morality of actions by comparing these actions to social rules and expectations.

The conventional level consists of stages three and four of moral development.

In Stage three, individuals whose moral reasoning is in stage three seek approval from other people. They try to be a good boy or good girl having learned that there is inherent value in doing so. Stage three reasoning may judge the morality of an action by evaluating its consequences in terms of a person's relationships.
For Stage four, it is important to obey the laws and social conventions because of its importance to maintaining society. Moral reasoning in stage four is thus beyond the need for approval exhibited in stage three.
[edit]
Post-Conventional
The post-conventional level consists of stages five and six of moral development.

In Stage five, persons have certain principles to which they may attach more value than laws, such as human rights or social justice. In this reasoning, actions are wrong if they violate these ethical principles. Laws are regarded as social contracts rather than dictums, and must be changed when necessary (provided there is agreement). By this reasoning laws that do not promote general social welfare, should be changed. Democratic governments are ostensibly based on Stage five reasoning.
In Stage six, moral reasoning is based on the use of abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. One way to do this is by imagining oneself in everyone else's shoes, imagining what they would decide if they were doing the same. While Kohlberg insisted that stage six exists, he had difficulty finding participants who use it. It appears that people rarely if ever reach stage six of Kohlberg's model.
[edit]
Other
Kohlberg also observed that there is a stage 4½ or 4+ which is a transition from stage four to stage five. This stage is where people have become disaffected with the arbitrary nature of law and order reasoning and become moral relativists. This transition stage may result in either progress to stage five or in regression to stage four.

Kohlberg further speculated that a seventh stage may exist (Transcendental Morality) which would link religion with moral reasoning (See James Fowler's stages of faith).

[edit]
Examples
Kohlberg used moral dilemmas to determine which stage of moral reasoning a person uses. The dilemmas are short stories in which a person has to make a moral decision. The participant is asked what this person should do. A dilemma that Kohlberg used in his original research was the druggist's dilemma:

A woman was near death from a unique kind of cancer. There is a drug that might save her. The drug costs $4,000 per dosage. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money and tried every legal means, but he could only get together about $2,000. He asked the doctor scientist who discovered the drug for a discount or let him pay later. But the doctor scientist refused.
Should Heinz break into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?
From a theoretical point of view, it is not important what the participant thinks that Heinz should do. The point of interest is the justification that the participant offers. Below are examples of possible arguments that belong to the six stages. It is important to keep in mind that these arguments are only examples. It is possible that a participant reaches a completely different conclusion using the same stage of reasoning:

Stage one (obedience): Heinz should not steal the medicine, because he will consequently be put in prison.
Stage two (self-interest): Heinz should steal the medicine, because he will be much happier if he saves his wife, even if he will have to serve a prison sentence.
Stage three (conformity): Heinz should steal the medicine, because his wife expects it.
Stage four (law-and-order): Heinz should not steal the medicine, because the law prohibits stealing.
Stage five (human rights): Heinz should steal the medicine, because everyone has a right to live, regardless of the law. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because the scientist has a right to fair compensation.
Stage six (universal human ethics): Heinz should steal the medicine, because saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because that violates the golden rule of honesty and respect.
Stage seven (transcendental morality):Heinz should choose to spend more time with his wife in their remaining days, both acknowledging the cycle of life-and-death which is a part of the human condition.

PRP SG

Gays say i am a loser.I'm a loser because they argue at length but are not convincing.

I say Heng is a liar but he remains silent on this.

PRP SG

I like the above msg which is simple, short & modest.

PRP SG

When gays have an agenda & self interest,how can one convinces them they are wrong?

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