Awareness of gay issues in S'pore: A political perspective

last SG · 2005-08-01T21:17:38+00:00

Thread closed as requested by thread starter

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:

Should I be sad ?

And I thought I read somewhere in your post that the HOMOSEXUAL Community has contributed much to the revenues of the Government, which one could assume safely that the HOMOSEXUAL Community are quite successful in their careers and enterprising endeavours ( ? )

Will it not at least allow those determined individuals to rent a whole house, and sublet those remaining unused rooms, so as to make a profit, and still able to enjoy the privacy to lead the ABNORMAL HOMOSEXUAL LIFE ?

Other NORMAL Bachelors and Spinsters have been PRO-ACTIVE in asserting their independence by living on their own, what are you crying about ?

Are you too young NOW to be still tied to your mummy's apron strings, and for daddy to provide some financial security, which explains for your continued dependance on their roof and food ?

I thought you have some assets for which you are very concerned about having it to be inherited by your sworn HOMOSEXUAL Partner ?

No house to own, no money to rent what assets are you planning your lover to inherit ?

Is this not creating a fuss over nothing ?
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This must be the most bitchy post I've read in this forum.

Bitchy ? I know that SOME HOMOSEXUALS bear effeminated characteristics, but I am surprised that its display will be extended into the printed realm.

Originally posted by earthlings73:
I mentioned that gays contributed more than married couples with kids because of the tax rebates, isn't it? Did I say that all gays are rich? It's seldom for me to put forth such a sweeping statement.

If married couples have combined incomes that can afford them to maintain a quality life with children, what do you think their combined incomes will be ?

If you believe that a HOMOSEXUAL can contribute MORE than the COMBINED INCOME of a MARRIED couple - then surely the SINGLE INCOME of a HOMOSEXUAL will exceed that of the MARRIED COUPLE.

What do you think is the Child Tax Rebates from only ONE INCOME in a COMBINED TAX of a MARRIED COUPLE ?

Is the Child Tax Rebates sufficient for the benefit of growing the Children ?

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Private housing - 2 to 3 times more expensive. (not everyone can afford private housing, unless you are from a rich family to begin with.)

Public Housing is NEUTER BLIND - and housing rules have changed to benefit SINGLES who reach 35 years, this affects ALL SINGLES - whether NORMAL or HOMOSEXUALLY inclined.

If you cannot wait why bitch - (ah, of course the effeminated characteristics taking effect ) .

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Renting - If you know that you will be buying a public housing in a few years time, do you want to spend extra cash now or to save it for renovating your house later? (isn't this the discrimination i'm talking about? If there's a possibility to purchase public housing, I'd have moved out already)

Assets - It's really none of your business. Just to say that I contributed quite a fair bit to my family.

RENTING has been the alternative INITIATIVE taken by ALL NORMAL PEOPLE - (singles or married), AND for those with brains that are not located in the 'black hole' and still have reason enough to find temporary solutions for their predicament, instead of 'BITCHING' .

Is this supposed discrimination only towards HOMOSEXUALS ?

If your kind of thinking is prevalent amongst Singaporeans, Housing Agents would have had a hard time making a living.

Anyway, your assets are no concern of mine, but then with no money for practically anything, and being jobless as a HOMOSEXUAL, can there be any assets worthy as an inheritance ?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Thank you very much, I am quite comfortable with the social, cultural, religious, economic, and political circles that I am presently familiar with - and will happily exclude those with HOMOSEXUAL tendencies to complicate my values.

Should I be biased nor prejudiced towards the HOMOSEXUAL Community, and sympathise with their preferred LIFESTYLE despite the fact that they will reject all Medical and / or Psychological help that is available ?

However, I find it obnoxious for the aggressive thrust of the HOMOSEXUAL Community towards the sensitivities of the Community, which have NOT discriminated those who prefer to live a HOMOSEXUAL Lifestyle.

Is HOMOSEXUALITY a hopeless trap ?

Try the solution in the post that follows:-
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If you are keen to talk about medical/psychological help, shouldn't you be looking at this?

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

[b]Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?

No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.

However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals.

What About So-Called "Conversion Therapies"?

Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention.

The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association's Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology's opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client's right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy would take place in a professionally neutral environment absent of any social bias.

And 2/3 of world psychologists are from US. They had denounced the use of reparative therapy, similar to the Brits and Chinese.

What medical/psychological help are you referring to? I'm a psychologist by training. Shouldn't I know about it if a psychological cure has been found?

You seem to be desparately clinging to the US as the ONLY and FINAL ARBITER in the psychological understanding and treatment - (medical or otherwise) - of HOMOSEXUALS; and perhaps with your statement that you are a psychologist by training, can one assume you have graduated from the US, and which explains for your fondness towards the APA ?

As was mentioned before, US psychological qualifications, nor methods of treatment, nor training and thinking are accepted nor recognised as the FINAL GOSPEL by the Singapore authorities, and most authorities across the globe.

So what if 2/3 of the Worlds psychologists are from the USA does it prove that there are more Americans with psychological problems, or that psychological consultations is similar to seeing a regular GP, OR simply that it is easier to graduate as a psychologist then in any other field ?

Do you realize that India has the biggest output of degree holders, but what is their status in the world order ?

So what if you are a psychologist by training ?

Is that suppose to intimidate my position or does it make you an exclusive authority ?

If it is of any help in this discussion, there are at least two psychiatrist, three psychologists and five doctors in my family tree, and there are casual friends within my own generation, who are practicing psychiatrists too.

Most of my relations have their basic degrees in medicine from NUS, and have completed post-graduate education overseas - Australia, UK, and USA.

While the US may be in the forefront of medicine and science, their approach is not necessarily approved nor accepted by others in the same fraternity.

In any case, professional courtesy has been extended as a basic rule.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Did your stand - through all the 14 pages of this thread - reflect your understanding for Society to accomodate HOMOSEXUALITY ?

The difference between my post from yours, is that YOUR POSTINGS have been the determined PROMOTION of EQUAL RIGHTS for the HOMOSEXUAL Community in Singapore - as seen from all your posts of similar liberal changes of various social and legal policies by various Governments.
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Another blatant play of words?

I had never argue that "gays are great; everyone should be gays".

I'm just highlighting issues in hope that the general public can be aware of gay issues, and hence be more tolerance of gays.

Which is an accomodation position, isn't it?

Was there a play in words, or were the words printed in quite a straight forward manner ?

No you did not mention that 'gays are great, everyone should be gays' - as you would have been lambasted more severely then the serious tone in the discussion so far.

The issues - employment, housing, inheritance - that you have highlighted are no more then the normal issues that are faced by OTHER SINGLES, who are NOT HOMOSEXUALS.

Were such issues considered by those OTHER SINGLES as being discriminatory towards them as a social group, who may remain single till they are old ?

What is so special about HOMOSEXUALS that they deserve greater understanding and generosity than the OTHER SINGLES who lead normal sex lives ?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote posted by Atobe:

Yes, self-serving to your efforts to PROMOTE Homosexual Lifestyle, and have it gain wider acceptance by Society.
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As mentioned, I tried not to use gays sources as much as possible, self-serving?

Yes, self-serving to justify the further promotion or accomodation to HOMOSEXUAL LIFE STYLE.

[quote]Originally posted by Atobe:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Another useless argumentative approach from you - do you need to be a habitual criminal to understand the behaviour of a habitual criminal ?
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You do not, there's forensic psychology or criminal psychology to help you understand. But you are rejecting all these scientific stance and rely purely on your imagination. I am glad that you agree that one need not be a habitual criminal to understand the behavior of a habitual criminal; but you were asking in your previous post from which my reply was given :-

from post by earthlings73:
Again, you are assuming that gay males are more sexual, and they will rape every man and boy who come into their sights. Unless you are gay, how would you know?

Do I need to be a HOMOSEXUAL to know how an HOMOSEXUAL operate ?

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from my post by Atobe:
Did I make any reference to myself ?

So you do admit that SEX plays an IMPORTANT ROLE, and as an afterthought you mention the 'finding a meaning and rewarding relationship is another key driver' - which may not be important, since it is an 'afterthought' ?
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What is love all about? All about sex? All about passion? All about companionship? Isn't it a mixture of all?

Yes, LOVE is a mixture of all HUMAN feelings and passions, about companionships, which are expressed, accepted, given and taken at different levels of LOVE.

It is about RELATIONSHIPS which ultimately leads to INTIMACY - where do you think all such relationship end up - simply PLATONIC ?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:

The statement is quite 'straight' forward with its simplified English used, and then again - how can you understand the ability of a 'straight' being able to practise 'RESTRAINT' when you are admitedly not a 'straight' ?
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Go read the MOH site. Go geylang to see for yourself.

Is Geylang an area that one can find 'RESTRAINT' at its best ?

Why did you not suggest going to some Monastery or Nunnery of whichever denominations and faiths ?

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:

Yes, and the handicap accept their fact of being a handicap, and have adjusted their LIFE around this fact to live NORMALLY and NOT ABNORMALLY.

Why are HOMOSEXUALs more special than the Handicaps ?
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Because of all those discriminations I mentioned earlier. We are not special, just want to be treated like anyone else, isn't this my stand all along?

The issues that you insist are discriminations have arisen from your skewered view as a HOMOSEXUAL maladjusted to the hard times that have fallen on almost every Singaporean.

Even in the best of economic times, handicaps are offered less opportunity then HOMOSEXUALS who are fully able bodied.

The chance of employment is NEUTER BLIND, and much depends on experience, qualifications, and finally the suitability of the applicant to fit into the job and the Organisation.

It has been known that some Singaporeans, who have been retrenched, or graduated more then a year ago, have remained jobless despite having sent more then 1000 applications. Are all these Singaporeans being discriminated ?

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Visiting websites from USA will not help you.

Go 'straight' (no pun) to any Singapore Medically accredited Specialist, and professional help can be IMMEDIATELY available.
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First of all, you blatantly used US website. And you argued that gays can seek psychological help. But where's the proof?

Singapore? Do you have a reference? A medical/psychological professional who uses drugs to treat gays? No, there's none.

Yes, I had used US websites to find counter to those pro-Homosexual sites that you insist on using to support your promotion of HOMOSEXUAL positions, this is due to the pervasive familiarity in the use of the WWW to post all the findings, which is not so enthusiastically followed by their counterparts in other parts of the World.

Even amongst the US Community of Psychiatrists and Psychologists, and Psycho-Analyst, there have been a long history of disagreement in the removal of lassifying HOMOSEXUALITY as a Mental Disorder.

Sexual Politcs and Scientific Logic: The Issue of Homosexuality
http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/homopolo.htm

Are you not supposed to be a trained psychologist ?

If there are no medical/psychological professional - who uses drugs to treat gays - will this not present you with the opportunity to start a bio-science firm with the help of venture capital to start a research in this area ?

Why sit back and cry foul and discrimination when you have said that you are 32, and still dependant on your parents for a roof over your head ?

Try this :
Singapore opens first help center fro gay community 7-12-2003 AFP
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/031207af.htm

Atobe SG

Have I ? Did you not say that Right Handed people will find it impossible to use their Left Hand ?

If there is a critical need - as imposed by Cultural, Social or Religious needs, skills and attitudes can be changed.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Ho, ho, ho - using your last card by playing the blame game of
" i did, and you did not " - this is pathetic and not so clever, you know ?

Should I respond with a critique to ALL the articles that you have preferred to post - simply to support your energetic efforts of PROMOTING HOMOSEXUALISM in this Forum site - and under the guise of calling it a POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE ?
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You can claiming that the article did not state Dalai Lama's position on the gay issue. But if you take some time to read, you will realised otherwise.

From your insistence to read the following post in 1997 : the following para are part extract from the following site:

http://quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm

Dalai Lama urges 'respect, compassion, and full human rights for all,' including gays
by Dennis Conkin
Bay Area Reporter, June 19th, 1997

The Dalai Lama, world-revered leader of millions of Buddhists and leader of the Tibetan people, spoke out strongly against discrimination and violence against lesbians and gays during an extraordinary Wednesday, June 11 meeting in San Francisco with lesbian and gay Buddhists, clergy, and human rights activists.

The religious leader said at the press conference that he had previously been asked his views on gay marriage, and said that such social sanction of gay relationships "has to be judged in the context of the society itself and the laws and social norms."

During the 45-minute meeting, the Nobel peace laureate and Buddhist religious leader voiced his support for the full recognition of human rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation.

Buddhist sexual proscriptions ban homosexual sexual activity and heterosexual sex through orifices other than the vagina, including masturbation or other sexual activity with the hand. Buddhist proscriptions also forbid sex at certain times - such as during full and half moon days, the daytime, and during a wife's menstrual period or pregnancy - or near shrines or temples. Adultery is considered sexual misconduct, but the hiring of a female prostitute for penile-vaginal sex is not, unless one pays a third party to procure the person.

From a "Buddhist point of view," lesbian and gay sex "is generally considered sexual misconduct," the Dalai Lama told reporters at a press conference a day earlier.

However, such proscriptions are for members of the Buddhist faith - and from "society's viewpoint," homosexual sexual relations can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable, and harmless," according to the Dalai Lama.
Rolling Eyes (Is the Dalai Lama playing to the gallery ? We know that his political position vis-a-vis his struggle with China is a losing proposition, and he certainly does not need any antagonists to his cause.

"His Holiness was greatly concerned by reports made available to him regarding violence and discrimination against gay and lesbian people. His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion, and the full recognition of human rights for all," said Office of Tibet spokesman Dawa Tsering in a statement issued within an hour of the meeting.

Photographs of the historic event were taken, but were available only on the condition that participants' quotes be reviewed prior to publication.

That condition violates journalistic canons regarding the freedom of the press. The Bay Area Reporter declined any conditions for the release of the photographs and has lodged a protest with the National Gay and Lesbian Journalism Association over their embargo.

Many gay and lesbian Buddhists have reported virulenty anti-gay sentiments and teachings from religious teachers in Tibetan and other Buddhist practice lines.

Warm and relaxed

The Dalai Lama also expressed interest in the insights of modern scientific research on homosexuality and its value in developing new understanding of Buddhist texts that nix homosexual activity, participants said.

Reiterating in the private meeting that he did not have the authority to unilaterally reinterpret Buddhist scriptures, the Dalai Lama also urged those present to build a consensus among other Buddhist traditions and communities to collectively change the understanding of the Buddhist scriptural references on sexuality for contemporary society, according to a joint statement issued by participants.

During the meeting, the Dalai Lama also candidly acknowledged that he did not know the foundations of scriptural proscriptions against sexual activity or where they originated, Peskind said.

Participants also said the Dalai Lama expressed the "willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context."

Dogmatic response
According to longtime Buddhist observer and writer Scott Hunt, whose 1993 interview with the leader was published in the January/February 1994 Out magazine, the response of the Dalai Lama to the controversy over the teachings is significant.

Hunt said the religious leader could have put forth the underlying "moral underpinnings" of the strictures - and clearly stated the basis and positive effects of such teachings.

Instead, Hunt said, by propounding the teachings without such discussion, the Dalai Lama seems to be "engaging in dogmatic repetition" and is apparently unable to substantiate their beneficial character, and because of his response, the validity of the teachings have been cast "into serious doubt." Vigorous debate about such issues and exception to the views of religious leaders such as the Dalai Lama are neither heresy or disrespectful in Buddhist traditions.

"In fact, it's the practitioner's duty to examine dogmatic views and to determine their validity," Hunt said. During the private session, the religious teacher told the activists they would have a harder time changing Buddhist scripture and tradition than advocating for their human rights based on Buddhist principles, according to Peskind.

Organized for the Office of Tibet by attorney Eva Herzer, president of the International Committee of Lawyers For Tibet, the historic meeting included Herzer, Peskind, Buddhist Peace Fellowship activist and Claremont Graduate School Professor of Education Lourdes Arguelles, and Jose Ignacio Cabezon, a gay Buddhist scholar and professor at Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colorado.

Other participants included the Ven. K.T. Shedrup Gyatso, a fully ordained and openly gay Buddhist monk and teacher who is the spiritual director of the San Jose Tibetan Temple; International Gay And Lesbian Human Rights Commission co-chair Tinku Ali Ishtiaq; and former Congregation Sha'ar Zahav Rabbi Yoel Khan.

"There is still room for movement," Ishtiaq told the Bay Area Reporter. But the human rights activist said the Dalai Lama's support for lesbian and gay rights is "very significant."

Ishtiaq said that the Nobel laureate commands tremendous respect around the world and hoped the leader's historic statement would have "considerable impact on non-Buddhist religious traditions."

A conference on Buddhism, sex, gender, and diversity issues is being planned, following the historic meeting with the world religious leader.

Are these the views of the Dalai Lama, or that the opinions and interpretations of the perception of the Dalai Lama's statements ?

Is the Dalai Lama the accepted titular head of the Budhist Community ?

Is he the final authority on such views from the Religious Community ?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:

So the 'blame game' continues ?

Was it not from the very beginning that I have stated that this thread has NO POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE - despite your wily efforts to the contrary ?
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That's because you refuse to recognise the social political implications.

Are there any real issues that you have raised concerning DISCRIMINATIONS towards the HOMOSEXUAL Community ?

Discriminations are certainly social issues, and could easily boil into political issues too - but what NEW social issues have the HOMOSEXUAL Community caused to Singapore's well being, except for the known ABNORMAL sexual preferences that are simply SELF-ABUSING despite the known dangers that such UN-NATURAL sexual preferences can cause to HUMANS.

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Are you firmly educated in the English Language that despite reading from the above reference pieces, you still will claim that "these Religious scriptures did not specifically condemn homosexuality " ?

How much more specific do you need, when the following is now specially taken from the passage above ?

from the piece : [b]Hinduism and Homosexuality :

The act of intercourse is to beperformed only for the procreation of children who will be raised in a God conscious environment and it is not to be done otherwise i.e for sense gratification.

Homosexual or even heterosexual pleasure has no real place in the life of
the serious practitioner of self realization and God consciousness

from the piece : Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism :

Homosexuality was known in ancient India; it is explicitly mentioned in the Vinaya (monastic discipline) and prohibited .

Sexual behaviour, whether with a member of the same or the opposite sex, where the sexual organ enters any of the bodily orifices (vagina, mouth or anus), is punishable by expulsion from the monastic order.

Was it not stated in the referenced piece Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism that Homosexuality was known in ancient India; it is explicitly mentioned in the Vinaya (monastic discipline) and prohibited.

Even in the Confucian Text, mention was made to the condemnation of HOMOSEXUAL acts that serves no purpose and is a waste of Human Energy towards Procreation.

If this is so stated and to be believed, then could the anti-gay movement happened only during the period AFTER colonization ?
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These are modern interpretations isn't it?

In ancient Chinese and Indian arts and literature. [/b]

Are these the only pathetic response from you - that these are modern interpretations ?

Truly, your grounding in English is somewhat suspect, considering your admission as being a trained psychologist.

Modern interpretations ?

This is now extracted again from the above passages of my previous posting, which you refused to see:

Homosexuality was known in ancient India; it is explicitly mentioned in the Vinaya (monastic discipline) and prohibited .

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:

Is it not correct that the LAWS that govern people's activities are based on the MORAL VALUES of those living in that Community ?

If MORALS will guide and govern HUMAN BEHAVIORS and ACTIONS, it will certainly be seen to be IMMENSELY appropriate that MORAL VALUES be applied to those bent on favouring HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES.
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How would gays affect the livelihood of those living within the community? If you adhere to a certain moral standards, so be it. Isn't discrimination more harmful towards other members of the community?

You may as well ask :
"How would CRIMINALS affect the livelihood of those living within the community ? If you adhere to a certain moral standards, so be it. Isn't discrimination (of CRIMINALS) more harmful towards other members of the community ? "

Is it not clear to you that if you decide to live within a Community, you will have to follow the Moral Standards of the Community, as much as each of us have our own unique and subjective requirements of social and personal preferences, we still have to subject our individual preferences to the values and standards as defined and established by the Community ?

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
The problem with your approach is that you have refused to acknowledge the PRIMARY ROLE of MORALS STANDARDS that are determined by the COMMUNITY that we live in, and with such MORAL STANDARDS evolving with the development of the Community at all levels and spheres of Human Activities - educational, philosophical, religious, social, cultural, economic, political, and others.

Laws are made by those living in the Community, and as such will serve as the guiding light for all Human Activities of the Community.

Is it so difficult to understand and to accept ?

" Progressive Changes " - as seen by you - are seemingly happening faster elsewhere; but is this due to the maturity of those societies, or due to the degadation of values of those societies ?

Maybe in 50 years time, we can find Lefties become more dominant than the Righties -
do you think that this can be a possibility ?

The Left is already sinking with the LEFTIST Communist of Russia, and the Nationalist Rightist are on the ascendancy in almost every country will there be any more Leftist left after the storm ?
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It depends on whether you are holding an absolutist or a relativist stand.

As for the definition of Left-wing politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

Left-wing issues
Equality, social justice, democracy, gender equality, civil rights, labor rights and trade unionism, governmental and social concern for the poor, working-class solidarity, secularism, tolerance, and internationalism are the values typically associated with the left wing of the political spectrum.

The left generally favours government or social control over economics and the redistribution of wealth, and is against social hierarchy and authority over moral behaviour, strict adherence to tradition, monoculturalism, privilege for the wealthy, and other values commonly associated with the political right. Those on the left are sometimes described as "progressive", a term that arose from their self-identification as the side of (social) progress.

Your reply failed to mention the earlier paragraph which also state:

"The term is often used to characterize the politics of the former Soviet Union and other one-party "communist states". During the early 20th Century such states enjoyed a considerable degree of popularity amongst many on the political left around the world, however today many (perhaps most) on the political left (including many Marxists) would not consider their own politics to have anything significant in common with any of these states. "

Those progressive values advocated by the Left does not belong exclusively to their purview only, as the Right also advocate the same but with a more Conservative flavour that seems to have seen the Politicians from the Right gaining political power all over the World.

Atobe SG

Previous post by earthlings73:
1) You stated that gay issues are non-political, but you failed to show that those issues I had raised had no social-political implications
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Quote from post by Atobe:
You mentioned too much about the poor attitude of society in discriminating of the HOMOSEXUAL Community - but were there any POLITCAL issues related to the HOMOSEXUAL activities that YOU have CLAIMED this thread to be ?

Should it not be YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to prove the POLITICAL PERSPECTIVES on the HOMOSEXUAL ISSUES that you have raised ?

Should I be helping you to prove your preferred variety of HOMOSEXUAL positions in your postings ?
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Current post by earthlings73:
Discrimination has social-political implications. This thread was not set-up to talk exclusively about sex.

Yes - it was acknowledged in my current reply - a few post prior to this - that discriminations will have social and / or political implications.

Unfortunately, the 'issues' that you have raised are non-issues as the policies did not SINGLE OUT the HOMOSEXUAL community in anyway - period.

This thread is set-up to highlight HOMOSEXUAL ISSUES and EVENTS, this thread has clearly no POLITICAL VALUES in any form or shadow.

Previous post by earthlings73:
2) You suggested Heng to look at psychiatric studies, but you failed to accept how the current psychology/psychiatry community look at this issue
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Quote from last post by Atobe:
Do all discussion need to end in a concesus ?

Each of us have our own position, and if you can show the relevance of your postings to qualify your thread to have a POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE, perhaps we could see a concensus.

Can the Psychological/Psychiatric reports of HOMOSEXUALS prove your point of this HOMOSEXUAL THREAD having a POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE ?
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Current post by earthlings73:
Didnt you suggest earlier that gays should seek psychological help?

Yes, they were used to counter your total dependance on psychological/psychiatric reports concerning the validity of the HOMOSEXUAL issues; and if your fascination (and by your own revelation of your own training as a psychologist) is with psychology - is it not logical that I should lead you to seek more professional psychological help ?

Do Professional Medical Practitioners : self-prescribed, or perform surgery, or dental work on themselves ?

Previous post by earthlings73:
3) You claim that gay genes cannot be passed on, but you went on to suggest that even handicapped, people of lower intelligence can negate their conditions
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Quote from last post by Atobe:
Did I mention that handicapped people of lower intelligence can negate their conditions - and perhaps become LKY - or did my postings suggest that at least these handicap people will HELP THEMSELVES to overcome or NEGATE their condition ?
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Current post by earthlings73:
If you prefer to argue for the sake of argument, what is the point ?

If this is the case, you would agree on the position that you can't change sexuality from one end to the other.

If your proposition is untenable, you can always claim that I am arguing for the sake of argument.

Unfortunately, I have made all efforts to very tediously and diligently address each and every issue that you have brought up - do you think I will go to such length only to engage in petty arguments for the sake of an argument ?

If one's sexual preferences can be changed from one person to another in a NON-HOMOSEXUAL manner, i.e. changing one's sexual preference from a Ah Lian type to a sophisticated Cat, do you think that some of the HOMOSEXUAL Preferences from some MEN with HOMOSEXUAL leanings are not a result of conditioning - similar to the habit of taking up smoking ?

If so, do you think that SOME Homosexual attitudes can be turned around ?

Previous post by earthlings73:
4) You claim that Asian religion does not accept homosexuality, without addressing why scriptures from these religions did not mention anything about same-sex behaviours
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Quote from last post by Atobe:
Has the Singapore Education System deteriorated to the extent of spoon-feeding of specific facts ?

Have not all the reference sites that I have referred you to - concerning the great Religions of Christianity, Islam, Budhism, Hinduism - made references to HOMOSEXUALITY - and that such HOMOSEXUALITY is to be condemned ?
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Current post by earthlings73:
I didn't deny that Christianity and Islam were against homosexuality. But in Hinduism and Buddhism, there are no specific scripts quoting directly that homosexuality is a sin. I had even shown that Dalai Lama had shown his understanding of the gay issues.

So finally, you do admit that there are religious objections towards HOMOSEXUALITY.

Can you simply forget the Dalai Lama ? He is merely playing politics, as I had addressed in my current postings of this same date (see a few post earlier ) :

Extracted from the website 'Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism' :

Homosexuality was known in ancient India; it is explicitly mentioned in the Vinaya (monastic discipline) and prohibited. It is not singled out for special condemnation, but rather simply mentioned along with a wide range of other sexual behaviour as contravening the rule that requires monks and nuns to be celibate. Sexual behaviour, whether with a member of the same or the opposite sex, where the sexual organ enters any of the bodily orifices (vagina, mouth or anus), is punishable by expulsion from the monastic order. Other sexual behaviour like mutual masturbation or interfemural sex, while considered a serious offense, does not entail expulsion but must be confessed before the monastic community.

http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm

Where does this leave your standing now ?

Atobe SG

Previous post by earthlings73:
5) You claim that gays are not discriminated, but you are hurling insults after insults and also, you had not demonstrated that those national policies I've brought up are not discriminating gays
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from last post by Atobe:
Will you care to read my text in reply to your post concerning discriminations in jobs, housing, and inheritance ?

Did I not address your repeated lamentation that only the HOMOSEXUAL Community has been discriminated ?

Did I not indicate that the NORMAL Bachelors and Spinsters are also discriminated by the same National Policies that have affected HOMOSEXUALS ?

"Claims of Insults " - is the last act of defense to one's untenable and desparate position in an argument, and is the most face saving way out of a cul-de-sac argument.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Current post by earthlings73:
You mean implying that I have nothing to do except sex, that you have all the rights to discriminate against me, that I have to live on my parents support are not insults?

You dont see it as a discrimination because you failed to see that not all homosexuals are in single status. Which in itself, a discrimination.

You are certainly a muddle up 32 year old kiddo, and supposedly a trained psychologist ?

Anyone who has a job, and insist on being dependent on one's parental support is nothing better than a parasite.

Are you living in some ivory tower and not seeing those who are working and renting their own homes ?

Aaahhh, yes - you do not wish to waste your money renting, and would prefer to save the money to renovate the house that you WILL BE getting in a few years. So you are or will be getting a house ? What discrimination is being directed at your social status being a SINGLE - (forget the fact that you are a HOMOSEXUAL) ? ALL OTHER SINGLES are experiencing the same frustrating 'discrimination' as you - (except that you are a HOMOSEXUAL only) - what special discrimination has been specifically directed at you based on your sexual leanings ? Did the HDB application form require you to declare your sexual leanings ?

For your information, SINGLES will also have the best of friends that are MALES, and they DO NOT engage in any HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP; they may not decide to ever marry for whatever reasons they may have, and may simply feel their MALE freedom is best serve by living INDEPENDENTLY.

Can we also see these SINGLES as having "partners in life" BUT WITHOUT ANY HOMOSEXUAL CONNOTATIONS ?

Are they not in the same 'discriminated' position as HOMOSEXUALS that you claimed for your own type ?

Previous post by earthlings73:
6) You claim that gays are abormal, but you failed to argue against APA's stance on this issue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from last post by Atobe:
APA's stance is not GOD's Final Word on this issue - why are you so drawn to the liberal views of a Foreign Society ?

Should you not make such views relevant to your own community - not the narrow HOMOSEXUAL Community that you associate with, but to the larger community that you are tangled up with in your daily dealings ?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Current post by earthlings73:
Then the argument should be homosexuality is sinful. But then, please go to EH.

A society is made up of people with different Religion (or without), should a 3rd party be pulled in to examine the issue. Psychologists are still one of the biggest profession that handles this issue. And it's important to examine whether your claims of abnormality have any basis, which in this case, you failed to show any basis.

APA's is not GOD, their position is based on the AMERICAN VALUES and MORAL CONCEPTS of INDIVIDUALISM.

EH belongs to the RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY.

OUR VALUES belong to those in Singapore, and generally in Asia, who will look at HOMOSEXUALS - (especially those non-effeminated MALES) - as being ABNORMAL. OUR VALUES and MORAL CONCEPTS of the COMMUNITY should matter more then some foreign APA's position on such matters that will affect the MORAL STANDARDS of our Community.

Previous post by earthlings73:
7) You claim that gays are unnatural, but you failed to show that why homosexualism can be found in animals (and these animals are not extinct even until today)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from last post by Atobe:
Have you not heard of some sub-species that are designed to self-replicate and self-produce ?

Are you suggesting that HOMOSEXUALS can perform the same tasks of giving BIRTH to PREVENT SELF-EXTINCTION, by way of SEXUAL EFFORTS from two persons of the SAME SEX ?

If HOMOSEXUALS can perform this miraculous task as the sub-species have been design, then it will not be rude to say that HOMOSEXUALS are part of the SUB-SPECIES
------------------------------------------------------------------
Current post by earthlings73:
You do not need every single individuals within the species to procreate for the species to survive. Homosexuals can be found since history was recorded. Shouldn't the human race by wiped out already? Judging from your argument. But no.. we have an exponential rise in birth rates over the last century.

Are you arguing at a tangent to my post ?

Your initial question was HOMOSEXUAL acts are NATURAL, as it is practised by ANIMALS - perhaps I should clarify the question further :

WHY SHOULD THE HUMAN HOMOSEXUAL ACTS BE JUSTIFIED BY THE ACTS OF ANIMALS ?

Are HOMOSEXUALS debasing themselves to the level of ANIMALS to justify their own sexual acts ?

Fortunately for the NORMALLY SEXUALLY INCLINED HUMANS, we were the cause of 'the exponential rise in birth rates over the last century' - and NO THANKS to the HOMOSEXUAL Community who indulges in SEX for the sake of SEXUAL RELEASE instead of the sacred SEXUAL ACT of LOVE leading towards PROCREATION.

Previous post by earthlings73:
"Tolerance of gays" will give way to "Promotion of homosexualism" when Psychologists had clearly articulated that "Change therapy" is dangerous. If gay can change to become straight, the reverse is true as well. etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from last post by Atobe:
As I had mentioned in one of my postings that there are HOMOSEXUALS that are not effeminated, and physically-emotionally show all signs of normality but have HOMOSEXUAL leanings.

So there are people - who appear 'straight' or NORMAL - but have HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES; and I have brought it up in the article referring to Rock Hudson - which you claimed was a scare issue.

How to debate with you, when you prefer to accept and reject my posting of those issues - as and when it suits your position ?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Current post by earthlings73:
But you did write "why are gays so sensitive? because gays are 1/2 male"? Didn't you write that? And now you are claiming that this is not your position because of an article you had quote?

Are you going round in circles, chasing your own tail ?

YES, I had mentioned and repeat again, with extract from the above -

those HOMOSEXUALS who are 1/2 MALES - are those 'who appear "straight" or NORMAL - but have HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES' ; and these 'are HOMOSEXUALS that are not effeminated, and physically-emotionally show all signs of normality but have HOMOSEXUAL leanings.

I had mentioned ROCK HUDSON, the American movie star - who conned the World with his macho roles, only to reveal his true sexuality as a HOMOSEXUAL during his final moments, when it was revealed that AIDS was draining his LIFE away.

You had said that this was an issue to scare the readers.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
At least, if at all, my rudeness was clear, precise and factual, and made no attempt to hide 'in between your lines' .
-------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions are not facts. Facts are based on well-researched studies.

You didn't even make an attempt to scrutinise what you quote. For example, an article from a "humor" (glossy news) website, an article which claim that homosexuals can't be cured, etc. etc...

Opinions are not facts ?

Thank you, at least your opinion of my being rude is merely an opinion - and not exactly factual rudeness on my part as you had claimed in your post that I had replied and which you are now passing your opinion again.

Is the second part of your post 'an opinion too' - can it be taken seriously as it cannot possibly be factual basing on your opinion of my post only ?

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
This thread is not about anal/oral sex ?

What were you posting at the top of Page 12, on 1 September 2005 12.36AM in your reply to caleb_chiang ?

Just a brief quote from your post:

Just a note to say that anal sex is not practice only by homosexuals.
http://www.analsexyes.com/statistics.shtml

If 'Gays' are not defined just by sex - what 'sex' will the term 'Gay' be referring to : Males or Females ?

If 'Gays' prefer a HOMOSEXUAL LIFE - does it not include the completeness of the MIND and BODY to encompass all SEXUAL ACTIVITIES ?

Was there anywhere in this thread that referred to any POLITICS or POLITICAL SUBJECTS or MATERIALS concerning the HOMOSEXUALS ?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Are you playing with words again?

Put it simply. How can gays lead a life with no job, do not have a place of their own, do not have hobbies, etc. etc...

Yah, the political development in the world. From the approval of gay marriages in Europe, to the acceptance of 2 unrelated singles to use CPF jointly to buy private property.

Is this your reply to my post which started with this question as a retort to your last reply ?

This thread is not about anal/oral sex ?

No wonder HOMOSEXUALS are only able to concentrate in only one position, since they are only good at chasing their own tails, by going round in circle.

This is despite all attempts to show that the situation with NO JOB, NO PLACE of their own, - no hobbies ( now this is new Shocked Question ) - will be similar to that experienced by any other persons in Singapore - who are NOT HOMOSEXUALS.

No HOBBIES of your own, as you are a HOMOSEXUAL - and you blame the Singapore Community for discriminating your HOMOSEXUAL TYPES ?

I feel sad for your parents having a 32 year old trained psychologist as a son, and will have such line of thought. Neutral

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:
Again, your continued reliance on liberal WESTERN studies will have no bearings on our Asian setting.

Have you not heard of 'Role Models' or 'Role Modelling' ?

Perhaps you have not, which explained for your very unfortunate present state of bent morals.

Or if you had, you probably picked on a HOMOSEXUAL as a role model, which led you to this present state of undecided and confused role.
---------------------------------------------------------------

It is scientific studies. Unless you want to question the ethics of psychologists.

Most people will know they are gays even before they come across another gay in their life. And in Singapore, with the tight censorship, where do u find gay models?

With the kind of 'quality scientic studies and thinking' that you have displayed so far, I am beginning to wonder if I should not be questioning your - personal or professional - ethics as a trained psychologist.

You are unable to find HOMOSEXUAL MALE models - should I be helping you ?

Since you have no hobbies, no jobs, no roof that you can own, and with the supposed tight censorship of the HOMOSEXUAL activities - I think that out of sympathy, I should perhaps direct you to look deeper into the following :

Singapore is Asias Gay Capital
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030914af.htm

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:
Quote from post by Atobe:

How convenient a position to take, and the blame game continues.

Have I over-extended her argument ?

What about your ridiculous questions as to the Human Race should have been wiped out already, since HOMOSEXUALS have been around for a long while ?

Are you not over-extending YOUR twisted logic in a hopeless defense of HOMOSEXUALISM ?

Did HOMOSEXUALS come about from the Sexual Activities of TWO PERSONS from the SAME SEX,

or did HOMOSEXUALS come about as a result of the NATURAL act of Sexual Copulation between TWO PERSONS - each from the OPPOSITE SEX ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You fear is that homosexualism will spread and make the entire human race to become homosexuals, isnt it? Then, procreation will stop.

But homosexualism is not a new phenomenum.

No, I have no fear of HOMOSEXUALISM per se, except for the debilitating and isidious subversion of the impressionable minds of the YOUNG, that HOMOSEXUAL LIFE is NORMAL LIFE.

The HOMOSEXUAL Community - through mouth piece like yours - have always been insistant of additional attention to its own SELF-CREATED PLIGHT, which can only take the energy and resources from others who are more deserving for such energy and resources to be given.

The demand from the HOMOSEXUAL Community to have the same privileges as that of the NORMAL Community - in terms of marriage and child rearing - will in reality be pushing the nub of their noses onto the NORMAL Community, and pushing it up against the Wall - at least in the Singaporean community that is largely following Asian Moral Values.

Is legalized HOMOSEXUAL Marriage simply for the sake of having automatic inheritance to one's Life Partner, or is there a deeper insidious agenda at the core of such demand ?

The part concerning inheritance had been addressed in my earlier postings, which provided an alternative forms of actions available to have the Will prepared.

The other consideration for such an absurd demand for same sex marriage can only be seen in the deeper aspect that we can probably get from the following article.

Trivialization of Marriage - Mark Tooley - 2001
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b6537ca44cb.htm

Some extracts that will be interesting reading are:

THE DEBATES OVER SAME-SEX "MARRIAGE" are of course merely a byproduct of a larger moral confusion and lostness plaguing our culture. Legal recognition for homosexual couples would inevitably lead to ever more absurd demands regarding non-traditional sexual arrangements

"gays" are now seeking marriage, implying that most homosexuals want lifelong monogamy. It is true that nearly all "gay" organized political groups are seeking legalized same sex unions. But is this because most homosexuals want to be married, or is it because they simply wanted enforced societal approval of homosexual behavior?

Marriage is a public act. It is a covenant not just between a man and a woman. It represents also a promise by that couple to their families, their communities, and their society that they will fulfill certain responsibilities to each other that transcend their own selfish interests. Nearly every society in recorded history has recognized the inherent state and societal interests in fostering and sustaining marriage as the union of man and woman.

most social conservatives, and most religionists, and most people in general, however inarticulate their beliefs may be, still see lifelong, heterosexual marriage as a transcendent moral arrangement and a public institution requiring civic affirmation. It is organically based upon the complimentary nature of men and women, essential to the rearing of children, and central to the harmony of any well-ordered culture. By civilizing men and providing security to women, marriage provides a core unit around which society can organize itself

You are right in stating that HOMOSEXUALISM is NOT a new phenomenon but neither are the condemnation and criticism that have been leveled towards such ABNORMAL Homosexual practices.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by ahpeh:
From what im hearing from you Atobe,You say

"Gays are not normal"

"Hence they should be denied basic civil rights"

You are a bigot.

This is no less different from saying that since people are different, they should be discriminated against.

Not to shock you or anything but, Homosexuality is normal, it is natural and it has been this way since the dawn of time. Its the reason why physcologists took it out of their list of mental disorders.

And by the say, as far as infringing on others rights, that is just ridiculous. When have the gay community ever requested for special status?

You are basing all of your arguements on the idea that homosexuality is a disease. It is not, and that would be the reason why all of your arguements sound like something coming out from someone who is deluded and believes that his/her/whatever 's opinion is the only opinion and therefore ultimate truth.

Don't construct arguements where you quote yourself to pove your point.

They are as thin as paper and break like thin ice.

Did I say HOMOSEXUALS are NOT NORMAL ?

Did I not say that HOMOSEXUALS are HUMANS with ABNORMAL SEXUAL LEANINGS ?

Did I state in any postings in a specific manner that you have stated :-

"Gays are not normal" - "Hence they should be denied basic civil rights" Question

Was this said by me, or was it your own bigotry that got you to form an opinion that was already in your mind before you can fully digest the contents of my postings ?

"We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end. " - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

"He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave. " - Andrew Carnegie

Can you or will you not use some reasoning power, or will you simply imitate and regurgitate the reasoning of others to claim it as your own - since you dare not, or cannot, or have not any reason of your own ?

Are you now a fool, a bigot, or a slave ?

"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so. " - Josh Billings

"There are some people so addicted to exaggeration that they can't tell the truth without lying." - Josh Billings

"Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain. " - Ambrose Bierce

"Education, n.: That which discloses the wise and disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding. " - Ambrose Bierce

"Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. " - Ambrose Bierce

Atobe SG

Tsk, tsk, you are so pathetically desparate for an argument ?

Is this quite unbecoming for someone of an 'ahpeh' ?

If HOMOSEXUALITY is not a choice, why do HOMOSEXUALS choose MALES instead of FEMALES - despite knowing that it will be impossible to have any final NORMAL CONSEQUENCES ?

Is HOMOSEXUALITY a natural state of being HUMAN ?

Oh yes, the argument that animals have been observed to be practising HOMOSEXUALISM - so it justify the HOMOSEXUAL ACTS of HUMANS as well ?

The homosexual acts of HUMANS are justifiable because animals do it ?

Pathetic, just simply pathetic.

Part Extract from the article :
WHY AM I ATTRACTED TO MEN ? - Jason Park
Last modified on 8 March 2005

Personality, genetics, and developmental experiences all have a place in influencing the development of homosexual attractions. Drs. Byne and Parsons at Columbia University believe it is important to "appreciate the complexities of sexual orientation and resist the urge to search for simplistic explanations, either psychosocial or biologic."44 They emphasize that in addition to the influences of genetics or the environment, the individual plays an important role in determining his or her identity.

Dr. John Money stated, "Many wrongly assume that whatever is biological cannot be changed, and whatever mental can be. Both propositions are in error. Homosexuality is always biological and always mental, both together. It is mental because it exists in the mind. It is biological because the mind exists in the brain. The sexual brain through its extended nervous system communicates back and forth with the sex organs."45

Our character is the net result of our choices and life experience. An article in Harvest News stated, "Some of us are shy, some anxious, some have problems with anger or chemical dependence, some of us fear commitment. Did we choose any of these things? Actually, all of our adult personality is the result of a complex interplay of heredity and family environment with thousands of small personal decisions dating back as far as we can remember. The results are deeply entrenched ways of feeling, thinking, acting."46 Although you may have had no control over the emergence of homosexual attractions, you can choose how to respond to them.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks has said that "some kinds of feelings seem to be inborn. Others are traceable to mortal experiences. Still other feelings seem to be acquired from a complex interaction of nature and nurture. All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior."47

http://www.evergreeninternational.org/causes.htm

Atobe SG

Originally posted by earthlings73:

Quote from post by ahpeh:

at least it has some basis
-------------------------------------------------------------
Current post by earthlings73:

Yah...

Before a claim is made, shouldn't one make an attempt to study and analyse the observations before making that claim? Instead of leaving everything up to one's imagination?

Psychology - at least has some basis ?

What basis, and based on what ?

Is not the attempt to study and analyse due to some observations that were probably INSPIRED from a spark of imagination - similar to the famous exclaimation made upon striking an idea or discovery : EUREKA ?

Some sound advice to both - ahpeh and earthlings73 :

"Man's mind, stretched by a new idea, never goes back to its original dimensions. " - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr

"A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged; it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in color and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used. " - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr

"Opinions are formed in a process of open discussion and public debate, and where no opportunity for the forming of opinions exists, there may be moods -moods of the masses and moods of individuals, the latter no less fickle and unreliable than the former - but no opinion. " - Hannah Arendt

"Truth is beyond category, energy chooses its own category, thunder rings where it will, and pigeonholers can kiss my... pigeonhole . " - John Shirley

Atobe SG

This is indeed a moot point :

Pronunciation: 'müt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English mOt, gemOt; akin to Middle High German muoze meeting
1 : a deliberative assembly primarily for the administration of justice; especially : one held by the freemen of an Anglo-Saxon community

If the HOMOSEXUAL Community is NOT accepted by Society, would you be able to find praises that sing Singapore as the Gay Capital of Asia ? (Ref #1)

Despite the fact that SODOMY is an offense, how do you think the numbers of AIDS/HIV cases amongst the HOMOSEXUAL Community has been on the increase ? (Ref #2)

Does this not point to the fact that as long as such acts are done OUT-OF-SIGHT and beyond the sensibilities of offending COMMON SOCIETY, most of the HOMOSEXUAL activities have been very much ACCEPTED and TOLERATED by the Singaporean Community ?

Hogwash ? I wonder which hog is being washed up now.

"The wheel that squeaks the loudest is the one that gets the grease. " - Josh Billings

Ref #1:
Singapore is Asias Gay Capital
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030914af.htm

Ref #2:
Increase in HIV infection in Singapore amongst Gays
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw04/040919a1.htm

Atobe SG

If HOMOSEXUALITY leads to SODOMY - should Society ignore ?

If KLEPTOMANIAC leads to ROBBERY - should we forgive and forget ?

If CHILD MALTREATMENT leads to PAEDOPHILISM - should we accept ?

If SUBVERSION leads to COVERT ACTION - should we tolerate ?

Should Society blame itself for the maladjustments of these individuals that are inflicted with such anti-social behaviors ?

Or should these INDIVIDUALS be held responsible for the situation that they have found themselves in, and will not seek help ?

Quotes of wisdom from Josh Billings:

"Wisdom has never made a bigot, but learning has. "

"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so. "

"Reason often makes mistakes, but conscience never does. "

Atobe SG

Originally posted by [email protected]:

Quote from post by ahpeh:

From what im hearing from you Atobe,You say

"Gays are not normal"

"Hence they should be denied basic civil rights"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Thats my reason for saying he is a heterosexist.

You did try with your B.S. part definition of HETEROSEXISM, and actually had abandoned any attempt to respond.

Are you making a new effort with a new word in HETEROSEXIST ?

Hmmmmm, what are you attempting to mean, as the word HETEROSEXIST by itself do not exist in the dictionary ?

I guess I will have to break it up to look up the separate meanings of HETERO and SEXISM :

'Hetero' :
Pronunciation: 'he-t&-"rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -er·os
: HETEROSEXUAL
- hetero adjective

'Heterosexual' :
Pronunciation: "he-t&-rO-'sek-sh(&-)w&l, -'sek-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary
1 a : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward the opposite sex b : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between individuals of opposite sex
2 : of or relating to different sexes
- het·ero·sex·u·al·i·ty /-"sek-sh&-'wa-l&-tE/ noun
- het·ero·sex·u·al·ly /-'sek-sh(&-)w&-lE, -'sek-sh&-lE/ adverb

'Sexism' :
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
- sex·ist /'sek-sist/ adjective or noun

If 'SEXISM' is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex;

and 'HETERO' is defined merely an adjective

and 'HETEROSEXUAL' is relating or characterized by by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward the opposite sex; relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between individuals of opposite sex

Could 'HETEROSEXISM' mean prejudice or discrimination towards men-women relationship ?

Am I supposed to be discriminating HOMOSEXUALS, or am I prejudiced and discriminating towards men-women relationship ?

You, [email protected] - (earthlings73 claim that you are feMALE) - certainly had baked the cake and taken it too as a Master's Prize.

"Words, like glass, obscure when they do not aid vision. " - Joseph Joubert

earthlings73 SG

Singapores 24 hours Rule on AIDS patients to remain
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw99/91209afp.htm

Hey wait, this is not even your orgininal position. There's no point furthering this discussion if you cannot produce evidences to support the claims that "patients die of AIDS will be striped of assets, and hence inheritance is not an issue". Further, you refused to respond to the MOH article, that not all gays are HIV infected.

Recognised Medical Schools / Basic Degrees in Singapore
http://smsl.org/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=6&meid=7&POSTNUKESID=48ff617b1fb54e4c781a2d38b1e02706

You orginal position was: "Look for local medical professionals for cures". But the article you had cited did not even mention anything about a cure for homosexuals. Medical doctors work on the physical symptoms. But Sexual orientation is something more complex than pure physical aspect of the body. Medical doctors look at HIV, psychologists look at sexual orientation. Howver, if you want singapore medical doctors' opinion:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=16958
The majority of cases of HIV infection in Singapore are heterosexual men.

Hey, they came to the same conclusion about AIDS

Do HUMANS need to justify its own behaviour from the action of the animal or other sub-species ?

Then, do not bring in the idea that homosexualism in unnatural.

What do YOU think was the intention of the SEX Expo being organised - since you brought this matter up ?

Surely you do not imply it as to encourage HOMOSEXUALITY ?

Nope, that was not my intention... The orgnanisers have promised the government not to venture into gay sex... I brought up this point just to say that sex is not just for pro-creation...

POLITICS:
\Pol"i*tics\, n. [Cf. F. politique, Gr. ? (sc.?). See
{Politic}.]
1. The science of government; that part of ethics which has
to do with the regulation and government of a nation or
state, the preservation of its safety, peace, and
prosperity, the defense of its existence and rights
against foreign control or conquest, the augmentation of
its strength and resources, and the protection of its
citizens in their rights, with the preservation and
improvement of their morals.

Does your HOMOSEXUAL issues fall into this definition ?.

I find it amazing that I was talking about rights.. and you were talking about morals... But still you fail to register that there are political implications in this issue.
[quote=atobe]

Was sex being referred in the black hole , or did your HOMOSEXUAL
Has Science and Theology ever merge, or has Theology ever hindered Scientists in their quest for the understanding of HUMAN EXISTENCE ? [/quote]

Sorry if you dont know what's black holes... I thought it's general knowledge.. Not all gays are interested in cosmology of course... Just that I personally find cosmology interesting... I brought up this point simply to show that something which has a theological basis does not mean that it does not have a scientific basis.

Used to... But not anymore... Which is exactly my point, isn't it?

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