Why are we grumbling?

ndsef SG

I find that my recent posts have drawn much responses from both Atobe and Robertteh. And correct me if I am wrong, but I find this forum to be filled with grumbling about govt policies and directions, which by right should be the way since its Speaker's Corner anyway.

But what I find disturbing is the number of people who are trigger happy at shooting down Govt policies and pointing out the flaws in this system and the errors that the ruling party has done over the last 40 years. I mean, everything is pretty clear on what has happened and what "flaws" present policies have.

Govt policies are formulated by HUMANS, and being humans at the receiving end, we tend to have our own perceptions on what these policies are meant to do. There are countless reasons why a certain policy is implemented, and one reason which is often rejected here is the govt's reason.

Then why do we grumble on something based on our own perceptions and in the process of it try to sway other people's thoughts? Instead, the unhappy lot may wish to come out with their own solutions to the problems.

So instead of asking what has the govt done to resolve the high cost of living. You should be coming out with the solutions. Why do we always expect the govt to do this and that for us? If you are great at finding faults, you should be just as great in providing solutions. This, my dear friends, is one of the characteristics of a leader!

And this is the reason why I believe the minority ruling party has failed so far. They are always grumbling or complaining about the majority ruling party's actions on problems facing Singapore, and not coming out with their own solutions. I believe Singaporeans will be most glad to hear the solutions to their problems from the "opposition party"

Atobe SG

:
But what I find disturbing is the number of people who are trigger happy at shooting down Govt policies and pointing out the flaws in this system and the errors that the ruling party has done over the last 40 years. I mean, everything is pretty clear on what has happened and what "flaws" present policies have.

If you believe that this forum in the Speaker's Corner "should be the way it is - with all the grumbling about govt policies and directions" - will it not be contradicting yourself to criticise the same "number of people who are trigger happy at shooting down Govt polices and pointing out the flaws in this system and the errors that the ruling party has done over the last 40 years" ?

If you also "mean, everthing is pretty clear on what has happened and what 'flaws' present policies have" - what are your solutions to these flaws, that you wish the grumblers to offer ?

Surely, you know that the arrogance of the Ruling Party a.k.a the present Singapore Government will prevent any alternative solutions to be accepted ?

How many in the First Generation Elite - within the Ruling Party - have objected to the HIGH SALARY paid to the Ministers, but whose voices were subsequently whittled away, and finally snuffed out ?

There was that lone voice of Singapore's first Foreign Minister - Mr Sinnathamby Rajaratnam, who so eloquently spoke out against the slow decline of the Singaporean morals, that is placing more emphasis on the worship of money, and not service to the country.

'MONEYTHEISM' was the word created by Mr S Rajaratnam.

The whittling away of the dissenting voices even from those in the Ruling Elite - and its final deafening silence - was so cleverly done in the name of self-renewal that everyone in the group of First Generation Leaders, was persuaded to step down.

Everyone stepped down, except for MM LKY - who remains in the seat of power and have seen the continued grip of the Family.

:
Govt policies are formulated by HUMANS, and being humans at the receiving end, we tend to have our own perceptions on what these policies are meant to do. There are countless reasons why a certain policy is implemented, and one reason which is often rejected here is the govt's reason.

Then why do we grumble on something based on our own perceptions and in the process of it try to sway other people's thoughts? Instead, the unhappy lot may wish to come out with their own solutions to the problems.

So instead of asking what has the govt done to resolve the high cost of living. You should be coming out with the solutions. Why do we always expect the govt to do this and that for us? If you are great at finding faults, you should be just as great in providing solutions. This, my dear friends, is one of the characteristics of a leader!

Yes, the "govt's reason" has always prevailed, but whose REASON is behind the ''govt's reason" ?

Will you accept the Government's reason that for the sake of Singapore, it is only correct that the color 'BLACK' shall always be 'WHITE' ?

You seem to follow the same track as Cindyfeh - with a fixation to know the solutions from all the 'grumblers' in this forum.

Yet do you seriously believe that whatever solutions offered here, will you be in a position to evaluate the viability of the solutions ?

:
And this is the reason why I believe the minority ruling party has failed so far. They are always grumbling or complaining about the majority ruling party's actions on problems facing Singapore, and not coming out with their own solutions. I believe Singaporeans will be most glad to hear the solutions to their problems from the "opposition party"

Yet, you seem to hold on to your prejudiced position that you "believe the minority ruling party has failed so far"...... "always grumbling or complaining about the majority ruling party's actions on problems facing Singapore, and not coming out with their own solutions" .

Despite the best advise LKY had proceeded with the 'Stop-at-Two' Family Planning program in the 1960s, and FORTY YEARS later, there is now a frantic appeal for young families 'to go forth and procreate' - as if the populations are machines to be operated at the whim of the Ruling Elite.

How many educational experts have offered plans and programs as an alternative to the teaching and learning of Mandarin, and yet the stubborn condesceding attitude persisted - destroying the lives of at least three generations of Students passing from Primary School to Tertiary Education.

Every three to five years, we see the flip-and-flop changes to educational policies, with U-Turns made after the earlier batch had their educational advancement blocked, and new confusion and anxieties created.

What about the transparency in the accounting of the Singapore Reserves, and the after-thought changes to the Constitution that trimmed the ability of the Elected President to protect the Second-Key that unlocks the SINGAPOREAN's RESERVES ?

What do you think the solutions should be to resolve these issues ?

Or do you believe that it is NOT our responsibility as Citizens to think, but simply to accept the decisions of the Government - which is elected into office every four to five years, based on a flawed election system ?

ndsef SG

Hi Atobe, always a pleasure to read your posts in my thread. It is always posted with much care and dilligence. To answer your question, on whether I am "up to standards" ie good enough to determine whether solutions posted here are good solutions, my answer to you my friend, " I am not."

Solutions posted here in the forum should not be vetted by me. This is very much in contradiction to a democratic society, "openess and accountability" that you have pushed for so far. Solutions posted here should be read, replied to and amended by all forumers, till the solution is good enough to be presented to the policy makers.

Of course, I hear your objections to this. You would say, how will the policy makers who have in the last 40 years been arrogant and high and mighty listen to us? To that, I have an answer, "Do not under estimate the power of the internet." If you then think that the internet is useless, then why did CSJ have to go through the trouble of getting his speech read out in internet radio and get followers to spread the word in this forum?

dragg SG

you must see how much they are paying themselves against what they are doing for the people now.

even the US president isnt paid that much.

oxford mushroom SG

I think ndsef does have a point.

My view is that the ruling party has effectively disenfranchised the population in more ways than one through the re-drawing of electoral boundaries, persistent use of defamation suits against opposition party members and its paternalistic approach over the years. Doubtlessly they have won the case each time with legal arguments but they have lost the hearts of the heartlanders. The recent debate about elitism only serves to estrange the people further and widen what Catherine Lim called the "Affective Divide".

Lacking an effective means to participate in the political process to challenge elitist policies, there is a rumble of discontent that is emanating from the heart rather than the head. That is a pity. The current political scene will remain unchanged until the hum of grumbling in the background grows to become a whirlwind of antipathy that results in humiliating defeats for the government. I do agree with robertteh on this but I don't think that is necessarily good for Singapore.

Change, when it comes, may be a huge surprise to both the government and the Opposition, who may not be ready for it.

pikamaster SG

oxford mushroom,

1) nsdef does have some good points, but (pardon me for saying this nsdef) s/he tends to rush into pro-govt conclusions too fast, without the political objectivity s/he claims to possess.

2) indeed, there is discontent, and it is probably stronger than what the govt thinks it is. But I beg to differ from the view that discontent coming from the heart is bad. I think, in fact, that it is better than the govt's content or discontent, which indubitably comes from the mind, to transmutate your expression. Discontent that is merely based on the mind results in the pursuit of the 3 'C's: Copiousness, Comfort, Crown; which, btw, are the bases behind the traditional 5 'C's. Since that is the base which statistics can tell you. On the other hand, if you feel discontent based on the heart, there is certainly the presence of empathy for some others eg maids, the poor singapore students, "the tortured Singaporeans". Note: when you ahve statistics, you can symnpathise with others, but sympathy differs to a significant extent from empathy. Sympathy derives from the pursuit of the Crown ie. when you sympathise, you are elevating yourself to a position of greater superiority than the person whom you are sympathising with eg. Kipling's the White Man's Burden.

But havign said that, I don't really think it's desirable to wait until the point where some Singaporean (p'raps CSJ?) leads a full-blown popular insurrection. We definitely need change before then. ANd I concure whole-heartedly with Ms Lim's thesis in the Affective Divide.

2) Change will definitely come as a surprise to everyone, possibly even us estranged Singaporeans down here in the Speakers' Corner. Wink The difference will be the attitude/response toward it: the PAP, no doubt, will feel threatened and refuse to accept the expiry of its shelf-life, this despite whatever may be present in govt rhetoric; the opposition may well obtain a pleasant surprise, but they may with-hold some reservations as the opposition parties, even the SDP, have archaic motivations (- n this pt holds true internationally... y else is there increasing voter apathy?-) . Although the opposition's final goal may be universal, nonetheless their itnermediate goals are archaic, which is why they may oppose the actual changes which might occur. The same attitude of the opposition might be found in the people.

At such a juncture, the liberal-traditionalist divide isn't sufficient as a dichotomy. Some progressive changes may alienate the liberals, whilst others might alienate the traditionalists. For eg, say if one of the arriving changes was to re-introduce trade and student unions; this would be opposed by the traditionalists, who assert the importance of higher authority. on the other hand, if on eof the changes were to include religious input in the decision-making process, which is actually pretty progressive, this would rile the liberals, even those in this forum, who would make accusations of theocratic manipulation, since there is a great number among the liberals who are fanatic anti-clerics. as a note, the second change is progressive once you consider the decadence of the IR decision, unless of course you are already in pursuit of Copiousness.

regards,
the (progressive & religious) pikamaster

P.S.: Conversion from 5 Cs to 3 Cs

C from 5 C C(s) from 3Cs
Cash Copiousness
Credit Card Copiousness, Crown
Club membership Crown
Car Comfort, Crown
Condo Comfort

P.P.S.: Copiousness = abundance

Atobe SG

Originally posted by ndsef:
Hi Atobe, always a pleasure to read your posts in my thread. It is always posted with much care and dilligence. To answer your question, on whether I am "up to standards" ie good enough to determine whether solutions posted here are good solutions, my answer to you my friend, " I am not."

It has been a mutually inspiring experience engaging the issues with you, and I must apologise to you, pikamaster, and anyone else if my response is seen to be too abrasive or aggressive.

Perhaps, my question concerning your qualification is not appropriate, as judgment of someone's position or offer of a solution is always subjective, and dependant on one's accumulated experience and exposures.

:
Solutions posted here in the forum should not be vetted by me. This is very much in contradiction to a democratic society, "openess and accountability" that you have pushed for so far. Solutions posted here should be read, replied to and amended by all forumers, till the solution is good enough to be presented to the policy makers.

You are right, but I am afraid that your position maybe too idealistic if you believe that solutions discussed here can ever be presented to the policy makers - who believed that Politics is only for POLITICIANS.

Even members of the Ruling Party, who sits on Feedback Committees, could not have their solutions considered, as other issues of self-interest or self-preservation of the Ruling Party's position will take precedent.

:
Of course, I hear your objections to this. You would say, how will the policy makers who have in the last 40 years been arrogant and high and mighty listen to us? To that, I have an answer, "Do not under estimate the power of the internet." If you then think that the internet is useless, then why did CSJ have to go through the trouble of getting his speech read out in internet radio and get followers to spread the word in this forum?

Similarly, I believe in the power of the internet too, unfortunately it has its limitation.

It will not be too long before the Ruling Party get wise to the opportunity available to SDP in broadcasting their political message that undermines the grip of the Ruling Party on all forms of mass communication.

The Ruling Party may not be able to shut down the internet, but a simple legislation to prevent any POLITICAL PARTY from using the internet as a POLITICAL TOOL can effectively shut down the SDP.

Let us be more realistic and simply believe that thie forum is good insofar as to exercise and broaden our minds, our vision, and hopefully give depth in the inspiration for us to regain our RIGHTS and OUR FREEDOM to live wholesomely in Singapore, without a single or multiple POLITICAL PARTY ELITES ruling our Lives and ruining our Future.

durai SG

Originally posted by ndsef:
I find that my recent posts have drawn much responses from both Atobe and Robertteh. And correct me if I am wrong, but I find this forum to be filled with grumbling about govt policies and directions, which by right should be the way since its Speaker's Corner anyway.

But what I find disturbing is the number of people who are trigger happy at shooting down Govt policies and pointing out the flaws in this system and the errors that the ruling party has done over the last 40 years. I mean, everything is pretty clear on what has happened and what "flaws" present policies have.

Govt policies are formulated by HUMANS, and being humans at the receiving end, we tend to have our own perceptions on what these policies are meant to do. There are countless reasons why a certain policy is implemented, and one reason which is often rejected here is the govt's reason.

Then why do we grumble on something based on our own perceptions and in the process of it try to sway other people's thoughts? Instead, the unhappy lot may wish to come out with their own solutions to the problems.

So instead of asking what has the govt done to resolve the high cost of living. You should be coming out with the solutions. Why do we always expect the govt to do this and that for us? If you are great at finding faults, you should be just as great in providing solutions. [b]This, my dear friends, is one of the characteristics of a leader!

And this is the reason why I believe the minority ruling party has failed so far. They are always grumbling or complaining about the majority ruling party's actions on problems facing Singapore, and not coming out with their own solutions. I believe Singaporeans will be most glad to hear the solutions to their problems from the "opposition party" [/b]

Hi Ndsef, Durai here. No heart feelings here but I think Atobe and Robertteh as well as myself share the same sentiments.

Anyway, as you said, this is the speaker's corner so everyone is entitled to speak up right? It's just that you seem so distant from what everyone is feeling... It is easy for the govt. to say "Please trust us...Please look at the big picture..." But it's not easy for us to do so.

Anyway, I believe that we, the people should demand more from the govt. as we elected them to fight for OUR rights. We are the ones paying them their high salaries. We are the ones that are helping them keep their jobs. So in return, they should be the ones working for us, right?

PigletZ SG

i read this from somewhere... London though a place of high fashion... recently one spokeman revealed that even with many talents who flocked to study in st. martin's, they actually dont have have many well-known UK fashion brands around in the market. what happened to pepe jeans?? anyone in spore still remember this brand?? they dont claimed themselves as one of the leading fashion industry.
but our government keeps planting different ideas and even claimed ten years from now, we will be one leading capital of high fashion with home-grown, well-known international brands. what have they done and will be doing for our students to achieve that sort of recognition? even song+kelly has to travel out and then back to spore to get its fame!
i think the nation lacks support. even so, they restrict too much for creativity and start-ups.
the recent presidential election?? what issued certificate in order to run for president?? i think we all know too much and this is just a place to let out. it doesnt matter whether we have a solution but whether all the hassle of submission to authority will be even replied or read before it hit the 'trash' button.
if we are not even given room and space to voice... this forum is useless. LKY would have long traced all our residential addressess though our internet connection and jailed us or probably because our country is so small that all the IP addresses is the same and he cant do that.
what is freedom of speech then? deflamatory?? all of us will be emailed by the forums manager or probably be banned.
whoever get offended here, read, take in into your stride, treat it as a reference and move on. life is bigger than what u think.

[email protected] SG

Originally posted by ndsef:
you should be just as great in providing solutions. This, my dear friends, is one of the characteristics of a leader!

and by this very statement u've made, u've shown why the ruling party are no leaders. just tyrannts.

M©+square SG

i see blood! Laughing

LazerLordz SG

Methinks the elite( depends on how you see it) are not that happy with the party too.And I feel that change is coming very soon, and whoever is prepared to take that opportunity to improve Singapore may prove hard to find.

The establishment has not done herself any favors for sticking blindly to her own arguments and reasons for certain legalistic actions which no one actually believes anymore, save under unspoken fear or just by superficial people.What the government fears is full spectrum education up to tertiary level which is why they only legislated compulsory education up to Primary level.

Have you noticed that University entry is not getting easier and more are shunted to the polytechnics which form an artificial barrier to local university entry?This coupled with the high cost of overseas education that is a barrier to the majority, may very well be the gameplan to push more people into the workforce and reduce their time available for thought, rhetoric and debate.When people are working and dog-tired, do they care two hoots about the crucial political issues?No.They are just contented to slide along in life.

That..is the master plan to dominance. Laughing

pikamaster SG

LaserLordz,

haha Very Happy I agree with you quite totally...
being from the elite... hehe I do see tt my friends and relatives and relatives' friends, who are also from the elite, don't find the party very tasteful either. I certainly don't!

The problem is, like the forummers here, nobody actually dares to do anything for fear of repression or worse eg. "be careful of your political views, or you might harm not only your future prospects, but those of your future family's as well. Sometimes, we just have to accept that we cannot change everything." or "keep it strictly around this table. no leaking out!" (at a dinner party).

But I do think that eventually the elite will be worked up enough to demand change; we aren't really satisfied with the high pay fo ministers and their "close relations" ie. press bosses, GLC heads, NKF head & board, etc. either.
Though, of course, I do hope someone will emerge to speed things up a little, and I hope that someone is more like JBJ than CSJ; someone like CSJ might bery well resort to armed revolution, which is hardly desirable in any manner of speaking.

And ya, the uni admission criteria are toughening... p'raps one shud try going foreign hehe Very Happy

the (liberally-sympathetic) (elite) pikamaster

ndsef SG

Thank you pikamaster, durai and of course atobe, this has been a good learning process for me looking at the view points from all of you.

And to set the records straight, I am a guy, 31 with a BA degree in Marketing and I am currently a Real Estate Agent with no political affiliations.

Yea, it does seem that I am always jumping to the defence of the ruling party, and I can only think of 1 reason for that. I find that most forumers here "attack" the ruling party and I find that I have to stand at the defence of the ruling party to offer some form of "resistance" hey it makes this forum more interesting doesn't it? Laughing Just to offer some conflicting viewpoints, this will make everyone think hard and stop answering in one statement posts.

Which is why in one of the post, I did mention that I am neutral, sitting on the fence.

LazerLordz SG

I would say that the biggest force for change will not come from the heartlands, but rather from the upper-middle class graduates.People like us know what their true colours are and do not have the patience of the older folks to overlook "honest mistakes" so easily.

oxford mushroom SG

But how much are we prepared to sacrifice?

I know people who would vote PAP just because they are afraid the value of their property will drop in an opposition party constituency with no chance of upgrading, poor social services and MRT lines that ran past them.

How many of us are prepared to give up 32 prime years of our lives like Chia Thye Poh? In the end, isn't it true that most people would rather emigrate if they cannot stand it anymore. And isn't it true that it is the upper middle class that can probably afford to do so?

BillyBong SG

It would be a supreme step upwards if our incessive 'grumbling' can one day be upgraded into a national 'rumbling'.

Heartlander SG

"Those who've won power were scared to lose it, those who hold power for too long are likely to abuse it!"This statement came from a world renowned political analyst.

what are your opinions on the above statement in Singapore context?

timothytsgsg SG

I have provided a few good viable solutions, ndsef. Can’t you just read it up? Or do I have to become a tape recorder for your pleasure again?

[email protected] SG

simple. read George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' and u can draw parallels between sg and the novel. And ironically, the novel was written as a satire of Communist Soviet Union.