Y not let women serve ns n do minute things

last SG · 2005-05-23T19:10:18+00:00

Eh peng yu eh, my englist no powderful la how to say ha? Knn think i ang mo no ggod also have right ah! Knn also have to say what! Wa piang you all men power...

Flashgalaxy SG

That would never happen. It would be too costly to our economy. The guys are already at a disadvantage. However, if girls had really experience what goes on in the army, their perceptions would also change.

skid SG

A woman's place is in the home, making babies and making dinner. Leave the tough jobs to the men. Wink

DriftingGuy SG

Have you served NS yet? If not then you have absolutely no idea on what you are saying..

If you do, then you need a crash course in human physiology as well as current lifestyle practices...

First of all, how many lean mean 35 year olds do you see around? After so many years of work stress, aging etc many have lost their inherent fitness to the point of no return... At the very least, they have lost the flexibilty and strength that they have at the tender age of 21...

To impose a fitness criteria of a 21 year old to a 35 year old is ridiculous... its like asking your grandfather to run 2.4 right now... Granted you might think that a 35 year old is not much different from say a 24 year old... That is wrong.... there is a huge difference.

Even if a 35 year old wished to continue adopting a fitness regime that he had 14 years old, it would be impossible to expect him to be as fast, flexible and strong as he is before... After the age of 25, the body begins to deterioate.. hence the new test class for age 25 and above...

If you are a fit 35 year old, good for you. But remember that majority of the Singaporean guys at your age is unable to achieve what you can.

lwflee SG

I don't think you got my point. My point is that we should say "OK, this is the minimum level of fitness that a combat soldier will need in order to be effective in combat". After having determined that level, it should be applied uniformly to all combat soldiers, across all age groups and across all genders. In other words, it should be like a qualifying test.

I have no objections to varying the standards required for the various silver or gold awards. Those awards are there to motivate soldiers to do better. As such, we should take into account that older ppl will generally have a harder time keeping fit.

The minimum level required should, however, be uniform. To suggest otherwise is surely absurd.

DriftingGuy SG

Exactly, the minimum level is already uniform. Cat X, Cat Y and Cat Z all shows the minimum fitness requirements a person is expected to perform for his age.

Perhaps you feel that the individual Cat systems are too lenient? Don't forget that the SAF has a commitee deciding such matters and they should have taken many factors such as human physiology into consideration...

lwflee SG

Is the minimum level uniform across all cat. levels?

DriftingGuy SG

Perhaps I wasn't clear about what I meant

Let me give you an example.. Let say you expect a 21 year old to run 2.4 km at 12 minutes 20 seconds. This is the minimum expected for someone of his age assuming he puts in the effort to stay fit etc. and yes it is currently implemented

Lets review what it would mean for a 35 year old. Let say 12.20 for a 35 year old would be equivilent to 10.00 for a 21 year old, you might disagree on this but this is a rough gauge and is based on what I said earlier about physical differences across the ages

If one were to insist that all of the minimum fitness criterias across the cats be the same, you would be insisting that a 35 year old run must run at near Gold fitness. Perhaps a number would be able to run at that speed. In reality, a huge number won't be able to run at that speed.

Even if they were to dedicate their life to just achieving an IPPT pass, a lot of them will still fail since at their current age, many health problems will arise such as heart problems etc...

Even the current minimum criteria is easily achieved. If one were to lead a sedentary lifestyle, it is not likely that he will pass the "minimum" criteria.

Hence Cat X would have a higher "minimum criteria" than Cat Y for the next age group and the same for Cat Z.

lwflee SG

I feel that the scheme should be like this:

Pass std across all cats and genders:

13:30

Silver for Cat x: 11.40
Sivler for cat y : 12:00
Gold for cat x: 9:45
Gold for cat y: 11:50
etc etc

Obviusly you do not agree. Yes, it gets harder as one gets older. But i think it makes sense to set one standard that all must pass.

Perhaps this is already in place. Maybe a study has been done and it has been concluded that the passing grade required for cat z soldiers is the minum required for any combat soldier to operate efficiently. In that case, i have no real objections. But is that really the case? Or is it a case of granting oldies more leeway?

DriftingGuy SG

If you were to set the minimum for all cats as 13.30, that would provide too much leeway for those age 21 and below.

You will see a huge increase in passes for ippt by those that are younger than age 25. A lot of them would think they are fit for running at 13.30, even though the reality is that combat fitness at their age requires them to run at 12.20.

Granted some units require a silver, some require a gold. But after ORD, many will aim for 13.30 as their minimum. That will effectively reduce the overall fitness of the Army.

I understand that you are concerned that the oldies might be getting it easy. I can't answer you about whether Cat Z is the minimum requirement to operate as an efficient combat unit. But, it should be the limit that a 35 year old be expected to perform physically, unless SAF is really screwed up..

I stand-by what I said earlier, there can be no one-standard for all age groups.. Each group requires specific criterias

Mr. Green

jianfish SG

About the economy being affected...Well I am sure Mr Lee Kuan Yew thought about it thoroughly when he enlisted all the men into NS. I sure did not hear anyone complaining that it would affect the economy or cause an influx of foreign workers or anythig. If the guys could be enlisted without a big fuss why not the girls...

Gender equality. Are u implying that girls are inferior to guys in singapore today. If yes then please do tell me where? In studies, don't girls score as well or even better than the guys and get an head start of 2yrs to start their job.
In the job market, 2yrs head start and qualifications is all that matter and girls can even sue for the simplest slight of discrimination.

Are we guys getting more respect from the girls that we serve the army?

Do the girls go 'omg, ur are protecting our lives!!! I love u sooooo much' or isit 'Haha, kena NS ah, gd luck...my sympathies la.'

You muz be kidding me.

I am sure if the girls were made to do the equal amount of work in other sectors such as simply doing clerk work or data entry or stuff and being paid like we NS man do, I am sure the country could save a huge chunk of money and rely less on foreigners even if its for 1year. Wouldn't it be a greater 'service' done to singapore.

Othello_Red SG

Lets put it this way. I'm a NSF currently, and i have been pissed time and time again in the army. It sux...i can give you that. But if you take a step back and think, this consrcipted army status has been chosen for what i feel to be good enough reasons.

MM Lee once stated the reasons behind implementing a conscripted army. Once the Brits left, defence was left to ourseleves. We had 3 options. 1 was to sign a defence treaty with neighbouring nations, for example Malaysia and Indonesia, stating that in times of war, THEIR armies would defend US. This method is not unproven as Gambia and Senegal have a similar treaty that has been put to the test before. It held up. But seriously, would you like Singapore to always be at a dis-advantage by having neighbouring countries defend us?

The second option to provide protection to this small nation would be to have an almost entirely mercenary army. Whether they would hold key positions was never contemplated, as this option was thrown out the minute it was brought up for obvious reasons.

The last option was to have a conscripted army that would provide the country with a continous stream of soldiers to fall back upon should war truly break out. This, supplemented with defence treaties with other nations would at least ensure that we have a chance should someone try to attack us. So in view of all this...i guess not matter how much i hate this, i have to agree with it. It is not perfect, but it is the best that we have.

Also, as for whether girls should serve national service too? I don't think it would be a good idea. Girls will hardly understand guys as will guys understand girls, so lets just leave it as that. Having them serve in a hospital environment would be extremely dangerous not only to the patients, but also to fellow full-time staff and even more to themselves. The number one cause of fear for nurses arround is a needle prick injury. You can be infected with HIV if you are not careful. And if you say that NS nurses don't have to handle needles, put it this way. You can't plan for everything. Shit happens.

So i say...this NS thing has become part of our culture. Live with it. Girls are meant to complement guys, not do the things we do. If they don't understand, then so be it. We don't understand a lot of things that they go through also. And no matter what, i feel that the army is for guys only, at least the frontline army. It is battle proven that if guys fight besides girls, they will fight much worse than if its all guys because they naturally will want to take care of the girls and not take new grounds.

sbst275 SG

Actually bef NS came in 1967, they had wanted to follow Israel, gals go for NS... But then, it may mean shortage to the growing of the industries back then...

But I dun think we really need gals doing NS...

fai SG

females best not to be in the military because in case of wartime, she need to take care of her children. If both sexes are used in the military alot of orphans will result during war time. From humane point of view we leave one parent alive for the kid.

hisoka SG

your 1st point i guess its valid but i would say restructuring of the economy and job market occurs all the time i doubt it will really have as much an impact as you would infer. out of point but perhaps takign a leaf out of malaysia's system where balloting is done might be a good idea where the problem you describe is negated but the guys do not feel as shortchanged.

2ndly, the overhual in the system would not be that drastic since there are females in the system at the moment even if they are not nsf but they do have to go through most if not all the things guys have to go through. inaddition the overhual can be done gradually with minimal or no effect on the operationality. and the overhual will again i feel not be as disruptive as you are trying to say or feel.

3rd, you mean females are not trying to fight for more advantages/equalities?(just a side note but i feel a system where a company has to employ like 40% females at least is an advantage to the females and not equality since it ensures they have higher chances in the company whereas males do not have this safety net) whether males are willing to give equal credit is not really a issue is it? as long as credit is given if some pple privately do not acknowledge the credit is it really an issue

i am not sure but you seem to feel only bad things can come out of changing the system and that you are unwillign to take risks. i would say that it isn't a veyr good view to take of things, nothign personal

Hells SG

guys n ladies pls stick to the topic and not bring in the discussion of guys doing ns in the first place becoz if u bring tt up it onli goes to show u dun understand the topic.. just my 2 cents worth" if gals want greater gender equality maybe they cud protest less and show a lil more action"(P.S. the above sentence is not related to this topic in anyway so dun flame hor Razz )
Btw for the gal who said guys should stay home n be a nanny, u should be aware tt there r now many wives who dun/cant cook hire maids to do their jobs and at the same time there r also househusbands. Also, wat makes u so sure tt u will get married or pregnant?(P.S. again dun reply to this, if u need to just pm me.)
Back to the topic. The speculation of economic chaos could happen, but then again tt is an assumption... n we all know tt assumption is the mother of all [email protected]# ups. Ministers r encouraging Singaporeans to be entrepreneurs n engage in risk taking, so unless a calculated risk is taken we will nvr know the answer. Right now my stand is with those who suggested tt gals help out in the service n support/logistics sector n be given NS pay. No 1 here ever suggested gals go fight in the frontline, unless they volunteer to. SG cud use Israel as a case study and work things out. If ladies r equiped with basic medical skills, in the event of a war they can help the wounded n save lifes. in peacetime who knows, they cud help, EG, perform CPR on a drowning kid.
There r many pros n cons but u must check out both, dun be 1 sided ok? Smile

hisoka SG

hmm sounds interesting even if it is put abit bluntly and over exaggerated. i gues in the end the point i would make out of this is why not put the girls out at the front line ALSO. unless physical condition is really an issue but that i really doubt. i mean in what way is men being bullet absorbers better than women being bullet absorbers?

Hells SG

omg hisoka pls dun digress man… the topic at hand is not bout asking women to chiong at the frontline, but rather how they can help out in the logistics, service, support area… pls READ b4 u type

hisoka SG

related lah anyway i'm not the starter Laughing but me stop okz?

Hells SG

heh ok Razz btw i wont be able to reply this thread anymore.. going to starlight for training(NS guys should know wat it is)

SilverPal SG

I'm all for gender equality even though it may not be evident from my responses.

I believe that there should be perfect equality between men and women. ie. Equal job opportunities, equal pay (at the same level), equal national responsibilities, equal punishment by the law upon breaking of the law, etc...

« Previous Page Next Page »