Taiwan-China Issue

last SG · 2005-03-29T03:15:04+00:00

Originally posted by sting_760: [quote]Originally posted by sting_760: [b][quote]Originally posted by Blueray: [b] I am living in China right now. . [quote]...

drawer SG

Oh is it?We will wait n see how if mainland China attack on Taiwan.Flaming me here is totally meaningless!

themoment SG

china wont attack taiwan…how can chinese hit chinese…oh rather i bet they wont?

sgdiehard SG

"China isn't a completely "chinese" country" How do you define "chinese"?

China never had the intension to annex Singapore or any other chinese populations, there are 6 millions chinese in malaysia and over 10 million in Indonesia.

bumbleb SG

The consideration for racial balancing was mentioned in almost all historical sources, textbooks included.

From google :

http://www.kiat.net/malaysia/history.html
"...In the 1960s membership in the federation shifted several times, finally settling into the present pattern in 1963, when Malaysia was established. The Malay majority hoped that including Sabah and Sarawak, which had ethnically diverse populations, would balance the large numbers of Chinese from Singapore. ..."

http://www.city.com.my/malaysia-history.htm
"...The proposal was on the whole well received. Trade benefits would accrue from the creation of a larger economic unit, and resources could be pooled. There would also be political advantages. For Malaya amalgamation with Singapore with its largely Chinese population would be offset by the largely indigenous populations of the states in Borneo. For Singapore it was a means of ending colonial status, and for Sarawak, Brunei, and North Borneo it would advance the date of independence..."

The issue of Malay dominance of Malaysian politics was always critical - then or now.

It was LKY's questioning of the Malay's special rights - the concept of "Malaysian Malay", that got him kicked out of the federation.

During my school days, I had an ex-pat teacher who had an altenative view of Singapore's quitting of the Malaysian Federation.

Refering to the point where a tearful Lee announced our breaking from the federation, my teacher commented that the tears were those of regret - that having conquered Singapore he now have nothing left to conquer. With Singapore out of the federation, Lee would never have the chance to take over Malaysia.

bumbleb SG

Originally posted by sgdiehard:

SGdiehard, I think our discussion have become... rather fragmented.

Let me sum up, I think that you feel that the Taiwanese as a whole is leaning towards much closer ties with China than is currently available, and that you are moderately disgusted by American interference in the Taiwanese Straits, because you think that the US is being hypocritical and opportunistic.

More than half or less than half, even if its 45 to 48%, clearly there are many millions of Taiwanese who feel strongly about an independent Taiwanese identity. Does these people not have a right to reject reunification with China?

I think that reunification cannot happen before the Taiwanese have strong, clear reasons to rejoin China. This is because this joining, if and when it happens, is likely to be permanent. Once in, Taiwan most probably cannot leave without another war.

Like I mentioned earlier, no sane man would give up something he have for nothing. In the same line, while the Taiwanese might like closer links with China, with less restrictions / regulations - would they be willing to give up their political rights in exchange?

As for the US, I think that part of their Taiwanese strategy, is to use this issue as leverage over China. At the same time, sale of arms are lucrative deals that stimulate the American arms industry. All in all, the American involvement in the Taiwanese Straits is largely beneficial - so long as the equation does not escalate into chaos and war. With American economic interests in China growing, and the US attention tied up with Iraqi and the unstable North Korea, the last thing they need is a war with China at this moment.

Hence I believe that the US supports the status quo, rather than Taiwanese independence.

Taiwan democracy... what is democracy? While there are many definitions, to me the bottom line is the choice of the people. Choice of different parties with different political paths, choice of media that offers different views. And let the people be make the decision of what they want, support and believe.

What do we have in Singapore? One party view? One party controlled press? I think that it will be ironical for a Singaporean to criticize the state of democracy in another country.

the.raven SG

it always amuses me when some taiwan kid says like a matter of fact "I am NOT Chinese, I am Taiwanese."

You are not Chinese then what? Indian ah? Angmoh ah? Laughing Taiwanese my ass, next time when China becomes a super power, see what they say, oo look at me I am not chinese, I am dunno what loook like chinese and speak chinese but somehow, I am not chinese!!

rascallyun SG

I think in that respect, the taiwanese kid is referring to his nationality. I think you might have confused the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Like I can be a chinese yet be not from china. Wink

the.raven SG

but saying "I am not Chinese" in a matter of fact way is just dumb.

lwflee SG

Not if Chinese meant being a citizen of china. All depends on context.

sgdiehard SG

No disagreement with your view on the US position. It is clear that US interest iis purely based on their own interests. If it is a matter of ideology or freedom, they would not have recognised PRC and kicked out ROC in the 70s.

The issue here is whether Taiwan should be independent ? It should be clear that rejecting reunification does not equal to declaring independence! It can also mean status quo. Since mainland China is not pressing for an immediate reunification, there is no question about "rejecting reunification".

It is clear, if less than half of the 23 millions want independence, then constitutionally, democratically, they cannot declare independence!! That is the reason why ah bian is trying all tricks to get the majority to agree on a referendum to change constitution.

Ideally, everybody should be free to do whatever he wants but in a group, you submit to the majority, that is civilisation. It is a historical fact that Taiwan is part of China so the minority in Taiwan will have to submit to the majority in Taiwan, and the majority in China as well!! And China is saying that taiwan is part of the 1.3 billion chinese, so 23 millions chinese in Taiwan also cannot decide to let Taiwan become independence. In the same way, 80 millions chinese in Guangdong cannot declare Guangdong independent!! It sounds harsh but isn't that the reality?

We know that declaration of Taiwan equals war with China so we should not encourage the minority Taiwanese to work towards independence. Besides, most Taiwanese know that when war breaks out, those who felt strongly about independence, Lee Teng Hui, Jin Mei Ling,....would be ready to flee to Japan and US.

Singapore is by no means an example of a democratic country but is the Taiwanese democracy a model we should follow? do you think Chiam See Tong can declare Potong Pasir independence so that his people can have greater freedom?

sgdiehard SG

Taiwanese is not a nationality!!! Taiwan is a province of China and Taiwanese are just like Hokkien who come from Fujian province, Cantonese from Guangdong province. Taiwanese chinese are ethnic chinese as well as chinese nationals of ROC. The aborigins in Taiwan are called Shangdi Ren. Ethnically non Chinese but Chinese nationals of ROC.

Chinese as an ethnic group is actually referring to the Han Chinese. There are 56 ethnic groups in China, Han is over 90% and there are manchurian, mongolian, ......So these manchurians, are Chinese in nationality.

In Singapore, we are ethnic chinese, but Singaporean our nationality.

The ABC are the Chinese born in america, but are american as nationality.

David Mars SG

Taiwan island + Peng Hu + Jin Men + Ma Zhu = Taiwan = Republic of China = Independent country. But most nations in the world don't recognise that, ha..

I think Taiwan and China is like North and South Korea.. Differences of ideals and political - social system. The fact that ROC survived means just that, it has survived and is an independent country. Like N.Korea and S.Korea. Only difference is, N.Korea and S.Korea are roughly the same size. China is much much bigger than Taiwan, and because China is modernising its economy, it represents a huge market for the world and many nations rather support China simply because of that.. Alas, it boils down to just $$ benefits, sigh..

lotus999 SG

You might not consider Taiwanese as a nationality but to the ppl of Taiwan they would like to think that it is and Taiwan is an independent state.

Blueray SG

Actually majority of the Taiwanese want to keep the status quo. They consider themselves citizens of Republic of China. There are people who favour independence or reunification but they are just the minorities. In the first place most Taiwanese don't even want to touch this independence and reunification issue.
Under Chen Shuibian's rule, Taiwanese economy is getting from bad to worse. Their unemployment rate, suicide rate, crime rate have hit a record high. Ah Bian's incompetence is clear for all to see. In fact, many Taiwanese are fed up with their current government and are emigrating overseas in large numbers. Mainland China has become the 4th favourite destination for emigrating Taiwanese!

David Mars SG

Blueray justify your comments pls, especially on Taiwan’s economy and migration.

bumbleb SG

I believe that for changes to a country's constitution, a simple majority is usually insufficient in most countries. Any changes to a countrys constitution are a major event, and usually requires a significant majority in the parliament to push through.

For Chen to succeed, he will need much more support than he currently have. One way to guess his strategy is that by egging China into aggression, he can attempt to fan the nationalistic sentiments of the population to gain supporters from the opposite side.

But given the recent developments, it is possible that his separatist stance might be partly a political ploy to gain votes from the nationalists. Already he seems to be switching gear into mending the fences.

Personally, I think that while the Taiwanese political arena might not be of your taste, the basic choices that are fundamental to a democracy are there.

Yes, their politics can be messy - to the extent of brawling in the parliament, but all those are the peculiarities of their society. At least the people and the parliament seems to passionate about their country, and quite a lot less apathetic than the equivalent here. What is more important? The style or the substance?

Rather than talking about Guangdong or Potong Pasir splitting away, why not talk about Tibet?

Isn't Tibet historically an independant entity, with a completely different culture and identity from the rest of China; something which remained true long after their annexation by China.

Why should Tibet be part of China simply because they were conquered at some point in their history?

Blueray SG

Voting in support for the DPP does not mean they favour independence. Many Taiwanese chose to support the DPP bcos the KMT have become corrupted over the years and Taiwanese felt they need a new fresh government. The fact is in today's Taiwan, majority of the Taiwanese don't even want to touch this independence/reunification issue. There are Taiwanese who favour reunification or independence but they are the minority.

Here's an article by renowned Japanese economist, Kenichi Ohmae on why Taiwan should reunite with the mainland:

http://www.tro-taiwan.roc.org.uk/dc/nsl022003e.htm

Under 5 years of DPP rule, Taiwanese economy is getting from bad to worse. Their unemployment rate, crime rate, suicide rate have soared rapidly. Many Taiwanese who supported the DPP in the past are realising the harsh reality that the DPP is even more corrupted and inept than the KMT. More and more Taiwanese are fed up with their current government and are leaving Taiwan for China in large numbers. They are more than willing to give up what they have in Taiwan in exchange for a new life in the mainland. In fact Mainland China is already the 4th favourite destination for emigrating Taiwanese. Here are the related articles about Taiwanese emigrating to the mainland:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer

http://english.people.com.cn/200207/07/eng20020707_99237.shtml

Blueray SG

Mainland China is now already the 4th hottest destination for emigrating Taiwanese.
Here are the articles on Taiwanese emigrating to the mainland:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer

http://english.people.com.cn/200207/07/eng20020707_99237.shtml

Taiwan's economy is also not doing well and unemployment rate in Taiwan is indeed rising:

http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20011025/20011025o2.html

k190106 SG

Hi, as a Hokkien myself, I seriously doubt taiwanese wanted independent, I guess its just the politics different betwen each party, Tibet was part of China, infact I don’t see how could Tibet being separated from China. Taiwan was not separated from China, but rather a political legacy of KMT, it was taken over by KMT from Japanese in the 1940s, remained very much untouch with CPP until recently.

suntze SG

The issue of whether Taiwan is part of China is one of sovereignty and territorial integrity. No government will easily relinquish their basic national interest, when push comes to shove on this matter. Historically, there is little argument that Taiwan did belong to China over a long period of time and most nations have accepted that Taiwan is part of China.

For the people of PRC, they believe Taiwan belongs to them. However, for some Taiwanese, (especially those from the earlier generation from the mainland) they believe that PRC belongs to them! Laughing If over a period of time when Taiwan evolves its own way of life, then the argument based on historical sovereignty weakens. That is one of the reason why it is in PRC's interest to integrate the economy and culture of Taiwan as closely as possible with theirs in order to forestall eventual separation.

The issue of reunification or otherwise is a separate matter which IMO should be decided by both the peoples of PRC and Taiwan and should not be forced in order to avoid bloodshed and widespread disruption. The best scenario to emerge would be peaceful reunification or separation by mutual consent.

Reunification could be brought about when the economic, cultural and political way of life of both the PRC and Taiwan becomes more similar. For their economy and culture to become more similar is perhaps just a matter of time as more people travel and live between the two lands. It is much more difficult for their political systems to become more similar. This can only happen if and when PRC makes deep reforms and democratise their political systems. Will this happen and if so, when? Probably yes. As more and more of their citizens improves themselves economically and become more vocal about their rights, it will be necessary for their government to take account of their views. When that happens, reunification might then make good sense.

From the pov of the US, Japan and S Korea, reunification might not be in their national interest, but that is a separate story. Mr. Green

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