What Would Confucius Say (WWCS)

lftwgr SG

In today's ST, MM Lee went off on his tangent about 'Confucianism' and 'Asian Values' again <"Values will shift as economy changes">

First off, just how relevant is Confucianism to the capitalist societies we live in? Do the PRCs actually practise confucianism anymore? Or is it cold hard cash that is driving them? SO why are we still thinking about confucianism when everyone else is market-oriented?

Secondly, this part of his speech stood out: "...you don't abandon your parents because they brought you up, they educated you."

Sure sign of an upcoming election Very Happy

Finally, what would Confucius say about opening a casi... sorry Integrated Resort with all the sleaze that it brings in?

robertteh SG

Human affairs and politics have been dominated as seen in the last 39 years of our nation building by so-called leadership justified in the name of confucianism during the period 1980s-1990s:

Unfortunately, leadership or confucianism are colored or deeply ingrained in the problem with money or : S - E - L - F{/b}

MM Lee spoke to the media in USA a great deal about the ascendancy of Confucianism and Asian Values during the whole period when he was exerting political controls on oppositions at home to give justification to his particular brand of autocracy or top-down leadership.

However came the Asian Financial Crisis in 1997 when whole financial systems including Singapore were found to be inundated by self-centred policies and autorratic judgmental errors.

Self or self-centredness was identified as the primary cause of collapse of whole financial systems and many Asian countries as witnessed by the Asian Financial Crisis. The non-Asian countries were relatively unaffected.

Self or self-centredness of men cannot be separated nicely from leadership or confucianistic leadership or even the autocratic governance of certain big corporations in USA.

Self has caused Enron and Worldcom and many other corporations in USA huge financial losses due to malpractices by the CEOs and COOs etc. in the aftermath of Asian Financial Crisis. Many household names were swindled of billions under the croak of leadership and talents due to hidden malpractices by their CEOs and COOs etc.

Suharto's government run on autocracy called pancasilla well praised by our leaders as part of the Asian Values seemingly to justify our leaders' belief in self-centred or autocratic leadership also went under due to internal malpractices within the government.

The Asian Financial Crisis finally put a temporary halt to past claims by our leaders of the efficacy of autocracy which was justified in the name of some kinds of Confucianism or Asian Values. If one is to re-examine confucianism it will be found nothing except for family togetherness or citizens' beliefs in honest government. However these two aspects of confucianism in practice were over-shadowed by capitalism or money-worship and self-centredness to the extent that Singaporeans are only today benefiting the scholars and million-dollar ministers and highly paid GLCs CEOs and COOs.

Singapore is losing steam in all aspects of government e.g. high costs making citizens struggling for a living, lacklustre domestic economic sector and class divisions called by Dr. Catherine Lim as Disaffective Divide.

The real test of our brand of leadership justified by confucianism came during the period 1996 - 2001. It was found that the confucianistic or Asian values could not lift the economy out of the recessions as compared with other Asian Tigers which have fared better.

Our leaders were largely helpless putting the blames on world economic recessions and structural unemployments.

If our brand of leadership supported indeed by confucianism or asian values have worked it would have worked during the 1997-2001 recessions.

It is clearly established by facts and evidences that pure top-down leadership or autocracy does not work wonders any more in the new world. It may work in simplistic past nation building not in a more complex world where people are the true assets to harness growths from new knowledge and new technologies.

Our leaders cautiously kept a very low profile not to talk about leadership or confucianism during the whole period when the world press was spared of the agony of longstanding debates on confucianism to justify Singapore's particular anguish to lead by autocratic means. GRCs and all the jest were part of the autocracy to get citizens to obey and comply with high costs of living which our leaders are meting out to the population.

Being premised on self or self-centredness the so-called leadership or talents of our leaders waited for a more opportune moment i.e. when the world economy recover more fully to benefit Singapore too so that they could reassert their particular self-centred autocracy justified in the name of confucianism or asian values.

The world will only laugh at our directionless economy when Korea and Japan are making new progress in all technological areas but ours is now based on casinos.

If our leaders are so sure that their leadership and talents have worked well, they should be able to harness people's practical talents in all fields to become technologically competitive. In the meantime any technological ventures they go into are stymied in problems in attracting talents because they have neglected their own practical knowledge applications in schools except to emphasise on promoting themselves and their images of grades and academics.

Sad to say this is the sorry state of our nation building and we are now lagging very far far behind but our leaders do not want to admit their fundamental errors of judgments in non-promotion of practical talents and entrepreneurship. They would continue with their convenient tax-and-rcover policies of the past and say that they have done it and succeeded when they have collected enough monies to pay their high salaries.

The above-stated facts should give a clearer perspective of what has happened to our confucianist leadership or autocracy justified by GRC and judgmental beliefs of a few men at the helm.

That is the true reason why we are lagging behind other nations like Korea in term of true economic competitiveness. It is a shame that our leaders keep talking about top-down or autocratic leadership when clearly it has failed.

True leadership which is competitive and will turn around the Singapore's lacklustre economy consist of :-

(1) Clearly established framework to facilitate contribution by all citizens in all aspects of governemnt: (see 7 points of True Democracy as posted under "Definition of True Democracy")

(2) Motivating everyone no matter how humble and less-scholarly in examination results to go for it - practise what he knows and has learned to the best. (This require accountable and transparent work processes to be laid down in all government departments and businesses)

Laughing

timothytsgsg SG

Confucianism, as a system of management, deserves to be thrown into the dustbin as it's an absolute obselete system.

LazerLordz SG

Confucianism brought ruin to Imperial China.Junk it.It has no place in modern governance, except as a ruse to maintain absolute control though the “Lim Peh Ka Li Kong” theory.

robertteh SG

If confucianism has worked in countries like China, China would not have stagnated as "Tong Yea Ping Fu" (The Eastern Sick Old Man) for so many centuries.

Now even China has discarded their many past belief in its own confucianism or self-importance and is fast opening up under their policy of modernisation.

MM Lee has slammed westerers as permissible or liberal for political reason as he has to use certain philosophy to justify his particular autocratic rule. In my view, I don't see westerners or anyone else as permissive or liberal. They have advanced themselves into scientifically advanced civilization over the past four centuries due to their particular upbringing which MM Lee failed to understand or refused to acknowledge for his own personal reason.

Westerners do not need to imbibe any confucianism or family values as many of them practise family togetherness, respects for the elders and upholding justice and equity which are larger in objectives as compared with family or personal ethics.

Many westerners also practised good virtues and religious beliefs like "love thy neighbours", "thou shall not murder", "thou shall not covet" etc as stated in their bible's ten commandments.

As compared with confucianism, the westerners again are not that necessarily depraved of values as MM Lee like to think. However in trying to justify his top-down leadership in the name of confucianism he has produced a system where the leaders are too concerned only with monies and paying themselves high salaries. This has been the failure of confucianism as I see it. Laughing

dragg SG

confucius will say 'i am already long dead. dont get me involved okay?'

Mr. Green

Weirdo80 SG

Lucky Confucius is dead, if he were still alive the PAP would release a press statement saying that Confucius “misled” them into thinking such thoughts and Confucius would defend himself saying that his ideals are applicable to reasonable people. MM Lee then sues Confucius for saying he is “unreasonable” and wins in the defamation suit. Confucius goes bankrupt and is exiled to Australia where he sets up an anti-Singapore website.

sgdiehard SG

Confucius was born in 551 BC and Confucianism is a collection of his words of wisdom by his students some 2500 years ago!! How relevant is it for society today is entirely up to each individual.

The society has changed. Confucius emphasized that one must first have good self discipline, then manage your family well before you can run a country and bring peace to the world. Today leadership selection is based on meritocracy and their messy private lives come into the limelight only after they have become leaders. One good example is the young man who racist attitude but still made it to be a government scholar.

The value system has changed. Confucius said that a gentleman must be caring (ren), righteous (yi), respectful (li), humble (lian), credible (xin), faithful/loyal (zhong) and forgiving (kuan). Unfortunately in todays context, you care only those who care for you and you cant be caring for everybody; profitability comes before righteousness; you dont expect to be respected just because you are old; be humble means you cannot be aggressive and that is detrimental to your promotion; your credibility is determined by what is written in the contracts and not who you are; companies wont keep you just because you are loyal or faithful, you will still be fired if they can find somebody younger and cheaper; you should not forgive your opposition especially if he remains a threat to you.

Confucianism encompasses words of wisdom or virtues for all parts of lives. Some are common virtue to all mankind, like filial piety which is also mentioned in the Ten Commandments in The Bible. Some are still valid today, but only as useful as quotable quotes, like if you read but do not think, you will be confused, if you think but do not read, you will be perplexed. Confucianism teaches us to take the central road, never go extreme (zhong yong zhi dao). In reality, whether to go middle of the road and become neither here nor there, or go all the way in whichever direction, is entirely up to each individuals characters and judgment.

China has stagnated as "dong Ya Bing Fu", in my opinion, mainly because it has always been basically agricultural and came with it the feudal system. Though there are a few words on political governance, but Confucianism is basically a value system for moral self improvement, Unfortunately I do not see the government practicing the values or virtue, no matter how much they talked about it.

robertteh SG

Hello sgdiehard,

Thanks for your insightful view on confucianism. I agree that confucianism was a value system not a politcal practice or system in any way.

As it is merely a value system of some kinds, it would be difficult to use it for governance as nobody can be expected to follow its precepts or self-discipline then. It would be idle talk or hot air to talk about practising confucianism or Asian values if such thoughts are non-implementable.

The problem is: our leaders have attempted to use confucianism even though it is a mere value system as a persuasive political governance philosophy to extract what suits its particular brand of autocratic governance.

If not for the check by Asian Financial crisis and subsequent expose of various value system etc, as the root cause of corporate malpractices, confucianism might have gained political mileage as a political tool to justify more sacrifices by citizens in our autocratic system. Laughing

lwflee SG

Lwflee to MM Lee:

Shut up. kthxbye.

Tuatau SG

This is probably what Confucius would say:

Confucius was traveling past a remote countryside near Tai Shan when he saw a woman crying bitterly in front of a grave.

He bowed respectfully from the seat of his carriage and asked his student to inquire why the woman was crying, "You seemed to have suffered much tragedy to cry thus sadly."

"Yes, my father-in-law was killed by a tiger, then my husband was also killed by a tiger, now my son was yet again killed by a tiger," she replied.

"Why don't you leave this place then?" Confucius asked.

"But there is no harsh government here," came the woman's reply.

Confucius turned to his students and sighed, "Mark this, my students: A harsh government is even more ferocious than a tiger!"

- Excerpt from

sgdiehard SG

Hi robert,

indeed, our government follows many things western, but when it comes to tackling the aging population, filial piety comes in handy, "take care of your own parents as good children, don't expect the government to do anything."

Fortunately confucius died long long time ago, otherwise he would jump up from his grave.

There is nothing much we can do except to uncover the mask when necessary.

robertteh SG

Citizens may support the government if it can convince them of correctness of its policies. However the least citizens should do is to follow what government says blindly.

According to Rummel's law, government tends to murder citizens offering the least resistance.

The government wants the citizens to apply that part of confucianism that suits them - worship the leaders, right or wrong!!! In the more objective western world, exposed to scientific revolution and technological progress, government is subject to people's expectations and wishes. Government is elected and paid to do a proper job. Government is held accountable and that is the way to progress.

Our government tries to avoid being held accountable. It stonewalls all good suggestions and keep quiet about high costs caused by its money-worshipping policies. It uses artful arguments to pull the wools over citizens' eyes. For example, where transportation companies are making monies from lowering of CPFs in 2001, the government should tell them to pass on savings to commuters and not to let them use clever arguments to increase fares.

However sad to say, the government is making monies and surpluses all these times it is increasing fees and charges and yet it puts up all kinds of arguments based on surreptitious creative accounting to increase costs of living.

The worse in any entrepreneurial society is the fear to scare away potential investors by high costs. Yet the government does not bother. It will keep increasing costs like PSA or SIA to say that it cannot compete on prices but values. It is only when it really face collapse situation that it will finally act to change. The turn-around on high-cost policies will happen only when it cannot be helped. The rest of high costs imposed by transport companies or town council will not be checked because there is no budget airlines, mahathir or Chiang Jemin to help us check their artful arguments.

The government has shown itself to be uncaring in competing against its citizens too in business and in killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The whole domestic economy is doomed to failure. Even if casino is set up there is no benefit to people as there will be continuing high-cost problem which the government conveniently tries to forget to mention. Only vigilant citizens can prevent this kind of artful non-confucianistic governance.

That is why some of us are here I suppose to offer our views. Laughing

pikamaster SG

That was a confucianism twisted to suit political ends, not Confucius's version of Confucianism. Read the Analects again, and you will find that the Confucianism in there is so different from the confucianism that we know.

the thoughtful pikamaster

robertteh SG

Once the citizens believed in confucianism. When I was in school many years ago, I have good faith in confucianism. After what the government has done to it, confucius will really turn in his grave like one forumer put it. I doubt people bother any more about leadership quality or talents as expounded by our leaders. They want them to be accountable and show results not just talk about how good they are. This is because the leaders have not been sincere with confucianism which has been misused to suit their political ends as mentioned by forumers here.

The most reliable form of governance is practical democracy laid down in basic framework to prevent abuse or self-centredness by anyone now or in future. Our leaders have their children too and they will benefit from our asking for such a practical assured system of government.

People are people. They have a role to play as people in a country or democracy- to elect the best and most capable to lead and produce results without self-interests or all these unwarranted and childish claims of own glories. Without people playing that role there can be no leadership or government to begin with.

Democracy is dependent on quality of the people, their cultures and social values. There qualities are better guaranteed by such political system which will form the base to enable and empower people to play their part in checking on political process which shall be conducted with accountability and results.

People or active citizens therefore should not be browbeated into keeping meek and not speaking up or being intimidated or challenged to form political parties whenever they criticise the government or speak up. The people only need to bring out evidence of wrong doings and they can continue to do what they have been doing - criticise or give views without fear or discouragement. They are not paid to form alternative parties or give solutions. They only need to speak up and get leaders to do the jobs.

People should feel at ease to carry on giving views on government performance and continue to take part in checking on any wrong doings or attempts to evade responsibilities such as irrelevant challenges from government in playing their role or checking on misuse of confucianism for political purpose.

So forumers here should feel to discuss on any incorrect policies or wrong doings of government and if challenged by establishment elements try to identify those calling them names like anti-government and decide what to do in the next election.

It is such steadfast quality the people need to inculcate now to attain maturity. I hope more forumers will contact like-minded people to post their views here so that Singaporeans will have correct assessments of whatever happened and decide and vote the next MPs and future leaders as they judge by results and performance. Laughing

timothytsgsg SG

A modern govt will run on 6 basic reliable values:

1) Accountability
2) Transparency
3) Responsibility
4) Candor(honesty)
5) Proper leadership
6) maturity

These 6 should form the modern value system for management and I'm sure the proper form of confucius' system has that as well. However, as someone has stated here before, we cannot concentrate on confucius by itself. The Qing and Ming Dynasties did that- at the expense of progress- and in the end, they shallowed themselves up when the Europeans came.

Tuatau SG

Originally posted by timothytsgsg:
A modern govt will run on 6 basic reliable values:

1) Accountability
2) Transparency
3) Responsibility
4) Candor(honesty)
5) Proper leadership
6) maturity

These 6 should form the modern value system for management and I'm sure the proper form of confucius' system has that as well. However, as someone has stated here before, we cannot concentrate on confucius by itself. The Qing and Ming Dynasties did that- at the expense of progress- and in the end, they shallowed themselves up when the Europeans came.

All 6 values were already missing in the Qing government by the time they faced the Eight-Nation Alliance after the Boxer Rebellion. It was corruption and conservatism, not Confucianism that impeded China's progress during the last century.

Mospeada SG

Shocked imperial.....

join the sith Mr. Green

oops...wrong place? paiseh ah....

LazerLordz SG

Embarassed Laughing

suntze SG

Confucianism brought ruin to Imperial China.Junk it.It has no place in modern governance, except as a ruse to maintain absolute control though the "Lim Peh Ka Li Kong" theory.

Gotta agree.......Confucianism was adopted as a means to justify and provide a moral basis for the rulers to govern in the old days (and sadly also in the not-so-old-days).

When fresh ideas and creativity led on to renaissance and industrial revolution in Europe, America and Japan, the Ming and subsequently, Ching dynasties were unable to meet the challenge.

IMO, the future lies in having creative ideas unfettered by political straitjackets. This is where I believe democracy will be clearly superior at the end of the day. The sooner ppl are allowed to have their ideas freely expressed and contested the better for all.