Anti pap, or genuinely here for country

CenturionMBT SG

Are the opposition here because they are anti pap or do they truely love their country? I just want to question their motives. Are you here because you love this place or because you hate the current party? How many of you here can give out concrete plans for this country, step by step in detail? How many of you are here simkply because you are discontent. Frankly, Most of the time i just step aside and let all the topics go on. But sometimes, i see the topics as more anti pap then patriotism. I always wanted speakers corner to be one that would benefit the country, not one where people take pot shots and spew discontent. How different would this be as compared to sammyboy if that is the case?Well, i advocate free speech, and i won’t close topics this easily. I just want to see how sincere you are to this country.

LazerLordz SG

And what is wrong with having anti-PAP sentiments may I ask?What is a Speaker’s Corner all about?We might as well be rottweilers. leashed and muzzled.But hey, aren’t we close to the dogs now?

CenturionMBT SG

no, but i ask this question because i want to know whether they are posting here simply becos they are anti pap or because they really want to improve this country. And i dun ask for much, just a mcq question of choice 1 or 2.

greengoblin SG

It is okay to have anti-PAP sentiments. This is a free country. But to have a Speaker's Corner downgrade to a mug-slinging session of PAP all the time destroys the purpose why this place is set up initially.

I believe what CenturianMBT wants is a place where we can discuss all topics political and not just anti-PAP sentiment topics... it is damn boring you know and intellectually unstimulating Mr. Green

goh meng seng SG

First of all, you must be able to differentiate between the country, the govt and the ruling party.

Anti-PAP isn't equating to traitor or "unpatriotic". And the word "opposition" itself has a bad connotation which I never like. I prefer to use "alternative party".

As for what you have said about having "concrete" plans for Singapore, step by step...etc etc. I think you are mistaken; running a country doesn't go like this.

If it is so, then PAP has failed badly. Where is the vision of PAP for Singapore? Any concrete vision? At least I have provided one; the Innovative Economy. Does PAP fulfill its last election promise of "Jobs Jobs Jobs"? No. There are still many jobless, so many that PAP admits that we are most probably going to have a persistent unemployment of 4% or more for the years to come.

And it seems that to the PAP, only cutting wages could save itself as well as the economy. Isit the case around the world? If that is so, countries that have high wages would not be progressing at all! Thus it would seem that PAP is the problem for Singapore's future economic development, if it continues to believe in such uncontested formula.

The Innovative Economy that has been tested successfully in places like Finland and Sweden requires a total revamp of the political culture we have in Singapore. PAP has resisted such a change for whatever reasons and thus become an obstacle to Singapore's economic well-being for the next phase of development. For patriotic reasons, we have to deal with PAP's resistance to reform the political structure first before we could proceed toward our next phase of economic development. So is this considered anti-PAP or patriotism itself?

Goh Meng Seng

CenturionMBT SG

Disclaimer:Take note that i am here to listen to ideas and not mudslinging.

ok, so as a representitive of your party, what is your party's plans to increase the number of jobs?.

CenturionMBT SG

[b]

The Innovative Economy that has been tested successfully in places like Finland and Sweden requires a total revamp of the political culture we have in Singapore. PAP has resisted such a change for whatever reasons and thus become an obstacle to Singapore's economic well-being for the next phase of development. For patriotic reasons, we have to deal with PAP's resistance to reform the political structure first before we could proceed toward our next phase of economic development. So is this considered anti-PAP or patriotism itself?

Goh Meng Seng b]

As far as i know, the "innovative economy" trend has been implemented for the past few years. But how successful it is, we will have to wait and see.But as for the post about governments not working through plans etc. Lets take it this way, i as a potential voter want to see the goals for your party. And i want to see what you can offer to me and how you are going to deliver it to me. I want to see its benefits. Right now you are just a sales man. And a sales man don't sell his products by attacking another company's product only. He must show in depth knowledge of what he is offering.if he can't, his product simply can't sell. So i don't mind you attacking the weak points, but you must proove to us that what you have is something that the other party doesn't have. Now, is that simple enough?

goh meng seng SG

First of all, as my disclaimer said, I am not a representative of Workers' Party. You mean party member cannot exercise their own freedom of expression? Workers' Party doesn't work that way, sorry to disappoint you.

If you believe in such "formula", then I don't think you understand the problem at all. You call this mudslinging? Then I do not understand what is mudslinging at all.

As I have pointed out, if Finland, from its great depression in 1990 with 18% of unemployment, could bounce back strongly to become the world's number one competitive economy, then there must be something we could learn from them. And I don't think you go by your assertions, "how to create jobs?" kind of question! Anyway, only PAP that is incapable of creative thinking could see things that way.

What they have done back then, is to look at their economic-political-social model, what have they done wrong? It is not about jobs only, it is about the whole system. And they are "proud" people of their own right, very patriotic indeed. And it is precisely due to such patriotism and pride, they are willing to take a hard look at themselves, what's wrong with the whole country and system?

Innovative Economy could not possibly evolve in Finland if they really take your approach "how to create jobs"! Wink If you still don't really get it, then do some research on Finland.

Goh Meng Seng

miong SG

I am for the betterment of our lot and our country's.

PAP politicians should change their hardened mindset and start putting their ears to the ground. That way, they will get to know how unpopular they have now become.

No amount of criticism will destroy our country more than what the ruling party has already destroyed - political freedom and providing a decent level playing ground for politics.

PAP is denying many Singaporeans right to vote by forming GRCs.
I dare say Singapore politics is NOT 100% democratic.

Political dissent is not neccessary 'hate country'. We disagree to improve our country, not destroy it.

High handed policies have been handed down to us with no regards to our feelings and hardship. Take GST for example - I thought the timing was terribly cruel and insensitive of the government.

The news about opening up and listening to the 65ers is nothing but the usual PAP charades.

The ruling party has lost the faith and trust of many Singaporeans. I am speaking from ground experience.

The great dictator himself recently said , 'very hard to find people he can trust'. Such is the attitude of a senior leader...where is hope that he will listen to his MPs .... or ordinary people for that matter!

CenturionMBT SG

If that is the case,seems like you are not interested in an intellecture debate after all. I say once again, leave the pap factor alone.I am talking about ahat plans do you have for furthur improvements. If this can’t be discussed here, thank you for listening. I will keep myself in the sidelines.

robertteh SG

There was a post of such a title in this forum so this is a duplicate. Just one remark: should anyone of any particular characteristics be more genuine?

When it comes to the crunch will the so-called loyal citisens be more loyal. I thought most of the rich and well to do will be taking the next plane to take refuge in his foeign homes rather than the poorer fellow countryman. Can anyone tell from appearance or manner of writing?

It is too early to tell who are genuinely concerned for the country. Laughing

EmptyCage SG

I am sorry to say this, but I judge that in terms of 'intellectual debate', your exchange partner provided more of it than you did so far.

Given that PAP is fond of stealing ideas from outside their circle and pass it as their own, I wouldn't encourage GMS to say too much.

EmptyCage

[email protected] SG

http://www.shockwave.com/af/content/real_hussein_2

EmptyCage SG

I am not here to debate on ideas. Rather, I would like to ask people who say WP and opposition can't offer anything -- what PAP has offered as the government? 3 recessions in 5 years? Is that a good track record? And every election they expect a strong mandate? Even governments in other countries in the world that did better than PAP have to work harder to earn mandate instead of threatening people with their own tax money. And still end up with 80% of the seats the most, not like PAP which get 95% of the seats.

I don't think your 'salesman' example is appropriate. Its not about 2 salesman from 2 companies. To me, a monopoly company is preventing new entrants to the market by legal measures, such as the unlevel playing field like GRCs that prevent smaller players or the PA grassroots that PAP illegitimately use as a party tool. GMS don't even have the chance to be a salesman.

You want an idea from a non-PAP person, how to see jobs created? I will give it to you. Notice how Singaporeans in the working world are usually overworked until they don't have time to start families, yet how come there are unemployed people around. Are companies squeezing the labour market?

I think you are not stupid, you should be able to figure the problem and solution from what I just said.

EmptyCage

sarek_home SG

Regarding your question of "what you can offer to me and how you are going to deliver it to me", political leaders/parties will tell voters what they can offer to them but seldom go into how they will deliver.

This is common, you can find that to be true in most US presidental race.

Political leaders are high level managers/administrators who have the feel of the trends, potential issues, future needs etc. They should have vision of how the future will be and what need to be donefor the nation to sail into that future well prepared. They set the directions that steer the country into and then assign the task of "how to get there" to government officials and oversee the progress.

It is perfectly fine if the oppositions do no have the "how", but they must know where they want to go.

LazerLordz SG

True.But we must truly explore the difference between party and state if we are to be able to reform this nation and find ways to make her strong again.

arburthen? SG

+1 agreed, as working man and a potential voter I too want to see what benefits are being offered.

As centurion mentioned I noticed that opposition groups like to "attack another company's product" to score points or to try to sway sentiments. That may have worked in the 40's 50's or even up to the 70's when people were hungry and less educated, not anymore today.

The fact remains that all these promises to do this or that means nothing to me. Or maybe you say freedom of speech, that means nothing to me too. Does that help me pay my bills? Maybe it does to the younger more impatient and frustrated singaporean looking for someone to blame, to me the young dunno what they want. Maybe thats your real target to rally the impatient young and emotionally frustrated you find in many of these forums.

I want to know what is being offered to me. Instead of finding other peoples faults, improve the wards you represent to the point it is better than what the ruling party is doing now or show me something concrete since you say you and your comrades are selfless, maybe the ruling party have funds to improve their wards and you don't but can't you try personal touch?

During the recent recession were there soup kitchens in your wards, or did WP youths go out of their way on weekends to organise sponsored charity events, were there collection and distribution of food parcels to the needy. Has something been done for the sickly in your wards and elsewhere? In your own small way was every effort done to help improve lives of the people that you want to represent.

Not that PAP did many of these things but word would have gotten around, religious groups and charitable organisations would have known and that would have magnified your humble image many times with the peoples and improved your standing, your efforts though small would have shone brightly and maybe prompted the PAP to 'catch up', forced them to act and take you seriously but as it is you guys didn't do squat! You wasted your time on meaningless countless debates amongst yourselves fearful at the same time the ruling party will steal your ideas and squandered a golden opportunity. How selfless or different are you from the ruling party then?

And now you come here to sgforums the place where I hangout to de-stress and force feed all this crap down my throat and ask me to cast my vote for you. How do you think I will rate you?

Nelstar SG

I don’t like the PAP but I despise those people who contest policies or actions without, giving solutions, nor backing their statement and arguments with proof, example and statistics.

goh meng seng SG

Dear CenturionMBT,

Of course I am interested in this debate! But I think it is very naive for you to "exclude" the PAP factor when it is the problem to be discussed in the very first place! Wink

If you couldn't understand what I am saying, then please read again my posting. PAP is the obstacle that prevented political reform even when the Review 21 Committee has put up such suggestions! How could PAP be "left" alone when it is itself THE PROBLEM?

Goh Meng Seng

Nelstar SG

If Low Thiang How and Chiam See Tong can win seats and contest against PAP... I dont see PAP as a despot nor as a threat.