A 14 year old boy is sentenced to 85 lashes

last SG · 2004-11-21T15:41:21+00:00

Stupidissmart would have been looking at a 30 day vacation if I replaced that imbecile Jason as the admin. You could be next in line if you support him.

seed SG

I had read the things and I had posted a short reply to it.

@[email protected] I'm sorry then i couldnt get you.

I had read the article where u say tat tat is a certain diesease where muslim people in their region do not have it. The only reason u say tat it is link with pork is just based on this theory. Therefore u r assuming pork is the culprit where it could have been due to other reason. The report does not state tat pigs r more prevalent to dieseases nor statting tat rearing pigs is the cause of their diesease. Why don't u paste the whole article here for peopel to read ? I can't see why u came out with tis conclusion and frankly I can easily find some common health problems of arabic men and claims tat they have tis illness just because they do not eat pork.

Huh? Refer to page three again. Or ill just put it here.
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Article 2
Source: Madele, John. World Health. March 1984 p10(3), WHO.

..............Yet very few of the patients had any history of epilepsy. Their epilepsy had been caused by a disease of the nervous system called cysticercosis, which is common in many developing countries. In other parts of south-east Asia, in central and southern Africa and in Latin America the disease is also a scourge--"one of the major causes of death in certain countries", says Dr Z. Pawlowski of WHO's Parasitic Diseases Programme. Not long ago, at the end of the 19th century, it was a very common disease in central Europe as well.

Cysticercosis is particularly prevalent in countries where people live in insanitary conditions and in close proximity to pigs. In non-pork-eating Muslim countries it is almost nonexistent.
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Chicken, beef or mutton also faces health problem if they r not bred with quality standards.

Okay and then you may argue other animals also bring about diseases naturally. I don't know what to think anymore. I lose... @[email protected]

Your analogy directly link god to be the specialist. Your above argument does not support the fact tat pork is unclean or unhealthy as well. Since u agree and trusted science, why do u doubt it only when it had clashes with your religion ? U do not doubt tat medical science is faulty and see a doctor for treatment, u do not doubt science so much so tat the computer u r typing will not give u an electricity shock or suddenly explode, in fact u trusted science so much tat u take it for granted. Why do u doubt it when science states tat pork is healthy or tat evolution is true ?

Since when does not eating pork clashes science with religion? @[email protected] Lolx. Ill repeat myself. ......but this does not rule a spiritual uncleanness, such that even if one hypothetically postutales a pork free of all microbes, that would not justify making it permissible. God's knowledge is greater and deeper than ours, whereas science is changing -- new discoveries are made, old theories are abandoned. Hence, even if we cannot discover the wisdom behind a particular divine injunction, this does not exempt us from following it. Tell me readers, where has that clashed? @[email protected]

stupidissmart SG

You are certainly right the Qu'ran pescribe corporal punishment for certain serious social crimes and it does lay down the principle of retribution. Will it plunge the society back into darkness? Are they barbaric? Are they indicator of Islam's inability to keep pace with the demands of human progress

Then u must be pretty glad the boy was beaten to death just because he do not fast. In fact u must be pretty proud of the rules tat a rape victim need 4 other witness, theives had to cut off their hands and women had to be stoned if they r suspected of adultery. Will it plunge the society back into darkness? Are they barbaric? Are they indicator of Islam's inability to keep pace with the demands of human progress ? If u ask me... yes.

Way back in 1946 Newsweek magazine carried this report: "For more than three decades, health authorities have warned the American public to avoid "pink pork" and to cook pork thoroughly. Yet the United States continues to have the highest trichinosis rate of any country in the world. This fact was emphasised anew by Dr S.E. Gould of Eloise, Michigan, reporting last week in the JOURNAL OF THE MEDICAL ASSOCIATION. At least 16% of autopsies have revealed pink pork infection, Gould said. Where autopsy methods are thorough the percentage has been as high as 36%. This painful and sometimes fatal ailment is caused by the tiny worm trichina, a parasite in live hogs, transmitted to human beings through uncooked pork. Less than 1/32nd of an inch in length, and invisible to the naked eye of both butcher and consumer, trichinae can lurk in any cut of pork from the most expensive loin roast to the more dubious frankfurter. Nor is it a respecter of persons

U r quoting something so long ago. 1946... 1946 is just after WW2 where the health condition throughout the world etc r pretty bad. The other references is at least 40 years old as well. Wat is the situation now ? It is now a RARE diesease in the United states ! Tat is why nobody give a hoot about it anymore ! In fact tis is not a serious diesease as well. The articale says tat 1 in 6 american was affected, but little people complain about it. The only way the life cycle for the worm will repeat is only if u eat their meat. Death is very rare and all symptoms dissappear after 2-3 weeks. If u wanna talk about deadly, it certiainly isn't 1/2 as deadly as mad cow diesease or chicken flu.

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec17/ch196/ch196n.html

Pigs are notorious for hosting dysentery-producing protozoa, coccidia, tape worms, pork bladder worms, the hydatid, roundworms, the intestinal threadworm, the thornheaded worm, nodular worm, the swine kidney worm, lug worms and of course trichinae (US Department of Agriculture Farmers Bulletin No. 1787). Add to this list hookworms, schitosoma japonicum, paragomines westermaini, paciolepsis buski, clonorchis sinensis, metastrongylus apri, giganthorinchus gigas, balatitidium coli, T.B., fusiformis necrofurus, salmonella cholera, paratyphoid, bruceellosis, swine erysipelas, smallpox, Japanese B-enceppahlitis, influenza, foot-mouth disease, and gastroenteritis for newborn babies

All tis diesease r not only spread through uncook pork but uncooked meat. For example tapeworms r more commonly found after eating raw fish. U r comparing pork eater from non pork eaters, not comparing vegetarians to pork eaters.

Certainly, major concern is presently mounting over completely new pig diseases, including a form of AIDS -- PMWS: Post-weaning Multisystemic Wasting Syndrome -- already recognised as spreading through the USA, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, Germany, Ireland and the U.K. Like AIDS in human beings there is no effective cure. In the case of the U.K. where the disease was first diagnosed in 1999, 120 prime pig farms have so far been decimated. Concurrent with PMWS is circovirus (spread by pig consumption of same species faeces and nasal secretions; the name comes from the peculiarity that this family of viruses have their DNA in the form of a ring) and PDNS (Porcine Dermatitis and Nephropathy Syndrome, discovered in 1993) which closely resembles Classical Swine Fever and African Swine Fever, and like PMWS there is no cure on the horizon

If u felt tat killing 120 pigs was a serious epidemic, than the killing of the millions of chicken and cattle throughout the world due to chicken flu or mad cow diesease is probably more deadly

stupidissmart SG

And, as has been recently discovered, pigs contain viruses built into their genes. One report stated: "Genes from an animal virus could mingle with those of a human virus in an organ recipient, creating a hybrid virus with unpredictable behaviour. Keeping animals isolated from infection may not be enough. Some viruses scientists are concerned about aren't caught: they're inherited. They're just part of being a pig... that's because, eons ago, these viruses infected the ancestors of modern pigs and planted their DNA in sperm and egg cells. As a result, the virus genes mingled with the pig genes and are now passed on through the generations

ALL MEAT sources have tis problem, not just pork

In fact, the Chief of the Bureau of Animal Industry released these startling figures: Out of 63 million livestock animals inspected prior to processing, 18 head of cattle were condemned, along with 1 calf, 11 sheep and 2,793 pigs! An interesting ratio! These figures seem to imply that disease is more rampant in pigs than in any other form of livestock. Indeed, no goats were listed as being condemned by the inspectors at all. Not only is this the case, but in one given year we discovered that 46,688,860 pigs were slaughtered in the United States but that only 65% of these animals were even inspected for T.B. (tuberculosis). Well over 5 million pigs had the disease but only 42,381 were deemed unfit for food

If it is such a big deal, u will see american dying of dieseases. Why r they still eating pork happily ? Frankly if u read through the article on your biblical website, tat guy is an alarmist. He also claims a lot of silly things such as

I have already referred to S-90. There is not a place on this planet which has not felt the disastrous effect on plant life which has come through the man-made plague of Strontium 90: with the compliments of massive fallout from atomic and hydrogen bombs which have exploded in our delicate atmosphere since 1945 (and, of course, during previous tests). Every single plant and skerrick of vegetation (including our common lettuce and cabbage) has been laced with this poison, as S-90 has a peculiar interest in green leafy plant life! If we were authentically health minded we would eat NOTHING at all on this planet -- we would literally starve ourselves to death, for nothing is "fit" to eat. Nothing. All has suffered from the effects of pollution, from meat to the true Gospel. While we frantically worry about a piece of red salmon in a vegetarian dish, our little children have their precious innocent minds polluted with the modern atheistic doctrines of a God-rejecting educational system.

must be admitted that cooking or "curing" pork thoroughly can, of course, destroy bacteria. What health authorities fail to mention, however, is the fact that in pig products other forms of bacteria actually thrive on excessive temperatures! A current U.S. Department of Agriculture booklet stated that "In a series of 24 cases of trichinosis reported recently, 22...resulted from 'cooked pork

Excessive temperature ? Why will u have a chance to eat cooked meat under excessive temperature ? These form of bacteria thrives on all food under excessive temperatures. Frankly the solution to all your co call diesease is just to cook it probably. All your worms and bacteria will die from the heat and it is recommended by your health authority.

Cysticercosis is particularly prevalent in countries where people live in insanitary conditions and in close proximity to pigs. In non-pork-eating Muslim countries it is almost nonexistent.

Cysticercosis is tapeworm. Sounds scary but it is also found in cattle and fish. It is also an old diesease where it is again rare in america. U r not going to get it if u cook pork thoroughly. U r not going to die from a tapeworm infection anyway.

U r still going back to the same point. U believe in science when u r riding in a car or staying in high rise building. U treat them reliable to the point tat using tons of fuel for transportation (airplane) or climbing up to a great height is safe (200++metres) . Another feature of science is tat it had supported the consumption of pork. Watever u said about pork is probably so insignificant tat health authorities r still allowing pork to be consumed by american and rest of the world. They do not go and culld these animals, they do not raise any alarm and in fact they treat other meat such as beef and chicken more seriously since they r involved in a more deadly dieseases. Doesn't tis clash your religion with science ? If u want to be safe, u might as well stop eating chicken or beef as well.

U do not believe in science when it had conflicts with your religion. U say tat god knowledge is greater but obviously he had proved himself to be wrong in certain issues such as evolution, young earth etc. U r just making a big assumption tat your god is real when u can't prove its existence nor any of its past deeds to be true. The question is, how do u know your god is real ? I mean there r other religions around as well. They also claims tat their religion is true. Why do u think u r special and your decision is the right one ?

stupidissmart SG

double

seed SG

Hey you always come around 10.30am. Very Happy

*Faints.......* Did you even bothered to read my previous posts regarding those issues? I don't want to repeat myself again. Sad But oh well.

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Argh.. careful when you post something about other's religion? Razz Though i admit, there is a lack of understanding of Islamic law everywhere, including in the community itself. The verdict passed to both breaking fast deliberately and producing 4 male witnesses for rape is very wrong, according to Islamic rulings. How that punisment in the news is called for, is definitely crazy.

Breaking fast is a personal thing between the practitioner and his creator, something the state or governing authority does not have the right to deal into because as mentioned, its a private affair. Who knows, that person might be in a state of illness, giving him the legality to quit fasting.

The proper penalty for it is to make it up for a day after Hari Raya. Or to feed some poor people an average of one meal each.

Next, rape. The misconception is that a woman has to produce 4 witnesses to prove her claim of rape. The need for the 4 witnesses is not to prove rape but to prove adultery. Rape in Islamic law of evidence can be proven using DNA testing, medical records, witnesses and even circumstantial evidence. This is because Islam understands that the women is potentially a victim and will not impose unnecessary hardship to prove her case. Whereas someone who wants to be a morality police and look into the affairs of others would have to give a high burden of proof to prove adultery (4 male witnesses), especially coz that has serious repercussions on the accused.

Well, you probably have read or heard of the harsh sentences decreed upon muslims in the middle east and elsewhere. These are misrepresentations of the Qu'ran, but it is understandable why some would perceive Islam as being brutal. Those are one of many cases in the Muslim world, where Shari'ah (Islamic Law) is praticed primitively. They include cultural practices that exists in Arab (which has also seeped their way here) and some Muslim societies. They may not necessarily reflect the teachings of the Qu`ran and often are in stark contradiction to the Shari'ah. Like you know, overdoing things like stoning, lashing, death bla bla.
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Today Muslim societies are not model societies, they are infested with ills or evils. Okay?

I am not going into this pork thing anymore because obviously i'm not knowledgeable regarding this. Despite what the articles says, you opposed some of which by giving your own assumptions. I'm lazy to argue back. Very Happy

Well except this.

He also claims a lot of silly things such as

I have already referred to S-90. There is not a place on this planet which has not felt the disastrous effect on plant life which has come through the man-made plague of Strontium 90: with the compliments of massive fallout from atomic and hydrogen bombs which have exploded in our delicate atmosphere since 1945 (and, of course, during previous tests). Every single plant and skerrick of vegetation (including our common lettuce and cabbage) has been laced with this poison, as S-90 has a peculiar interest in green leafy plant life! If we were authentically health minded we would eat NOTHING at all on this planet -- we would literally starve ourselves to death, for nothing is "fit" to eat. Nothing. All has suffered from the effects of pollution, from meat to the true Gospel. While we frantically worry about a piece of red salmon in a vegetarian dish, our little children have their precious innocent minds polluted with the modern atheistic doctrines of a God-rejecting educational system.

What he said is true what. @[email protected] He was talking about.. "Some vegetarians claim that all animal flesh is unfit for human consumption. This is a complete and utter fallacy, although it must be admitted that ALL foods -- and I mean ALL foods -- have been contaminated, if not by strontium 90 from "fallout," then by man's insatiable drive to "improve nature" by adding artificial colours and preservatives to everything from yoghurt to wine, and antibiotics with hormones (for more rapid, fleshier development) injected into fowl and cow! The antibiotics turn the fat of meat white, instead of a yellowish colour, not to mention the unnaturally huge quantities of cholesterol that are consequently produced. A full 40% of all antibiotics sold in the U.S. are injected or fed into livestock. Fish is contaminated with DDT residues and mercury overdoses and who knows what else! Let's not overlook the Green Kingdom. We grow vegetables and fruit with the aid of chemical fertilisers and poisonous sprays." etc etc.

Alright, alright, even if all current science didnt find any reason not to eat pork, it is still religiously forbidden to Islam. I've said again and again and again, even if that is so, this does not rule out a spiritual uncleanness. Lets make another analogy. Science doesnt say porn is bad for you right? Yet why arent some not watching it at all? Among them, a few are trying to remain clean of vices, "morally" clean. Can you understand where i'm coming from?

As believers, we believe God's knowledge is greater and deeper than ours. Thats why, if we still cant discover the wisdom behind a particular divine injunction, we are still gonna follow it. You may call that blind faith again, okay. There many things left to be discovered, slowly by slowly, we hope they will be unshrouded, like this pork thing.

seed SG

U do not believe in science when it had conflicts with your religion. U say tat god knowledge is greater but obviously he had proved himself to be wrong in certain issues such as evolution, young earth etc. U r just making a big assumption tat your god is real when u can't prove its existence nor any of its past deeds to be true. The question is, how do u know your god is real ? I mean there r other religions around as well. They also claims tat their religion is true. Why do u think u r special and your decision is the right one ?

Haiz.. you forgot science also sometimes has a quasi religious element to itself, believing itself to know best, failing to understand the very first point of science, that nothing is known, all waits to be disproved. That makes it constantly changing, new discoveries made, old theories abandoned. @[email protected] Aiyo.. more repetition.

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Evolution - I havent studied this subject. @[email protected] Well, there are three different viewpoints of muslims thelogians and scholars about evolution. I belong to the third category who believe creationism and evolution exists together. But their opinion is that evolution is not synonymous with Darwinism, secondly, although evolution is a universal fact which can be established through the study of comparative morphology, paleaontology, all those gy gy gy, the theory to explain its mechanism i.e. Natural Selection, is by no means a secure and scientifically proven fact.

"What is the matter with you, that you are not conscious of Allah's majesty, seeing that it is He Who has created you in diverse stages? See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (glorious) lamp? And Allah has produced you from the earth, growing (gradually)" (71:13-17)."

While that recognizes the general idea of developement of life in stages, over a period of time, human beings are considered as a special act of creation. Islam teaches that human beings are a unique life form unlike any other: soul and conscience, knowledge, free will. In short, Muslims do not believe that human beings randomly evovled from apes. The life of human beings began with the creation of Adam & Hawwa (Eve).

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Young earth - Which part? @[email protected]

The earth is round and of surrouding planets?
"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, they float each in a falak" (21:33). Falak is like something that is round, like that of a spinning wheel.

Big Bang?
The Qur'an says that,
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? (21:30)

Following this big explosion,
Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11).

Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that God established in the universe.

There. @[email protected] Phew.. *wpies forehead*. Those are sayings thousands of years ago before modern science. My religion claiming its true, but it does not say other major religions are wrong per se. It says Islam are a closure to them. The finishing touches. Why i think my decision is the right one? I only happen to agree with it's values. @[email protected]

stupidissmart SG

Faints.......* Did you even bothered to read my previous posts regarding those issues? I don't want to repeat myself again. But oh well.

Wat I am trying to say is, things like stoning women or cutting off hand is written in the quran. It is not devise by the people living in these middle east countries but in fact it is stated in the sciprtures telling them to act out these punishment if they were found guilty of it. U probably need to read wat I had written properly first.

I am not going into this pork thing anymore because obviously i'm not knowledgeable regarding this. Despite what the articles says, you opposed some of which by giving your own assumptions

Then let the reader judge on whether is pork as deadly as u sound.

Yah right. But isn't he blowing things out of proportion ? From the way u and he write, it seems as though men will die just by consuming it. In actual fact, human is still eating all these food happily and the average age before death is still increasing. Therefore he is an alarmist and blows out too much silly things which has been proven to be of little effects.

Then where am i wrong is saying tat u guys do not eat pork just because it is written as such ? There is no actual logic in doing it but u just do it none the less.

On porn, it depends on wat type u r watching. Some of nudity can be translated to being artistic and is good for people. The other more extreme one will influence a person to be more.. maniac. Psychology is a science itself.

As believers, we believe God's knowledge is greater and deeper than ours. Thats why, if we still cant discover the wisdom behind a particular divine injunction, we are still gonna follow it. You may call that blind faith again, okay. There many things left to be discovered, slowly by slowly, we hope they will be unshrouded, like this pork thing.

If u doubt science, then u should trust statistic. It appears to be the case where pork eaters doesn't make them more unhealthy nor die earlier

Quasi religious element ? Sure or not ! The very first point tat science know nothing ? U probably have a very bad impression on science. Science do not know everything but it certainly know enough accurately. It do constantly change, new discoveries to be made and old theories refuted, however tat is the beauty of science itself. The new theories will become more accurate and more reliable. Tis is unlike religion where it refuses to change even though it is blatant tat it had err. Science is so trusted tat in the later part of your reply, u compare the verses from quran with respect to science

Evolution - I havent studied this subject. @[email protected] Well, there are three different viewpoints of muslims thelogians and scholars about evolution. I belong to the third category who believe creationism and evolution exists together. But their opinion is that evolution is not synonymous with Darwinism, secondly, although evolution is a universal fact which can be established through the study of comparative morphology, paleaontology, all those gy gy gy, the theory to explain its mechanism i.e. Natural Selection, is by no means a secure and scientifically proven fact.

I do not want to talk about these topics because it had been thoroughly debated in other threads before and I do not know nor nor have the time and effort to know quran well. Trust me tis will be endless and I don't wanna waste time on it. All I can say is u select these few verses out of the few thousands of lines and probably u had not dwell on lines which was obviously being proved to be false.

seed SG

Ill attend to this paragraph first. Now this is dangerous. You yourself said you do not know the Qu'ran well and yet you would claim certain things about Islam among other issues. This is where half truths and misconceptions derive from. I really hope people will stop this impulsiveness when speaking of a sensitive topic such as religion. An example is below.

Stoning people - Please note that stoning people was never contemplated in the Qu'ran as a punishment. This is false, while some muslims might argue otherwise according to the Hadith which i'm not going into.

Cutting of hand for theft - "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut their (three or more) hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise." Do human beings have three or more hands? That, it means to cut of the theif's resources or power. And just after that saying comes, "If one repents after committing this crime, and reforms, God redeems him. God is Forgiver, Merciful." So.. what is the correct theft punishment in Islam? Tis to give chance for the thieves to acknowledge their crime and give back what was stolen. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, proof should be found who are the theieves. Then they should work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be returned to their owners. Otherwise, theives should work to repay their debt until it is fulfilled.

See how Islam is terribly misunderstood?

Then let the reader judge on whether is pork as deadly as u sound.

Yup.. i merely gave an opposing holistic view on it.

Then where am i wrong is saying tat u guys do not eat pork just because it is written as such ? There is no actual logic in doing it but u just do it none the less.

And where did i said you were wrong? Please reread all my posts, you won't see that. Again, i merely gave a viewpoint from a regular muslim, why we do this and such. Wether they are out of logic, that is up to your intepretation.

If u doubt science, then u should trust statistic.

Not once have I havent doubted science. @[email protected] You can reread my posts once more.

Sad I went by this quote.. "Science is a way to teach how something gets to be known; what is not known; to what extent things ARE known (for nothing is known absolutely);" - Richard Feynman. There are some things which are still not known yet right? @[email protected] Ok i am confused myself with what i said before. @[email protected] Sorry sorry. This talk about science has gone far out of my capability. Well, i don't think my religion has erred on anything with science yet, which you won't agree on not eating pork and which ill try explain AGAIN below.

I don't have a bad impression on science. Sad

Havent i posted that, "Alright, alright, even if all current science didnt find any reason not to eat pork, it is still religiously forbidden to Islam. I've said again and again and again, even if that is so, this does not rule out a spiritual uncleanness." Now.. spiritual uncleaness got nothing to do with science.

"As believers, we believe God's knowledge is greater and deeper than ours. Thats why, if we still cant discover the wisdom behind a particular divine injunction, we are still gonna follow it. You may call that blind faith again, okay. There many things left to be discovered, slowly by slowly, we hope they will be unshrouded, like this pork thing."
Yes.. we are waiting for signs. The field of science could give us that. @[email protected]

I also think we should stop these topics. My mind is drained. @[email protected] *plays Maplestory*

stupidissmart SG

Cutting of hand for theft - "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut their (three or more) hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise." Do human beings have three or more hands?

I am going to ask u where do u get the above quote from first. Tis is simply because I do not believe the above line meant tat hands r to be cut off only if u had 3 hands or more. Cut off their hand doesn't meant tat it had to be 3 or more hands, but as long as if u had one hand, it had to be cut. Don't u agree tat this line is completely senseless if it only refer to people with 3 hands or more ? Who has 3 or more hand and also a thief ? So u guys r biased against people with 3 or more hands ?

From the quran on chapter about women, section 15

15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/4.html

So how do u interprete tis statement ?

pkchukiss SG

I am very curious: Muslims all around the world keep denying the link towards Muslim extremists as the antagonists in terrorist acts around the world. Just look at their own backyard. 85 lashings to a young boy. Even the worst criminal cases in Singapore get 20, and caning is limited to healthy male adults.

It kind of shows what kind of personality these people in Iran have, and their excellent respect for humans as a living entity. Hopefully, the perpetrators get their just due, either via the humane justice system, or via some divine intervention.

seed SG

Waaaaah, i'm going through religious classes here. Sad I thought it is the holidays now. Sad

Huh? Didnt i explained? Which average human has 3 hands or more?! @[email protected] What do you use hands for? They are means to work and get a living.

I got the quote from, "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."

The Arabic word means "cut" while is the plural (three or more) of (hand) used in dual form. As we know, each one of us has normally two hands, including theives. How can we possible cut off the hands (three or more) of a theif? In addition in that quote is given its figurative meaning of refering to wealth, possession of responsibility and resources.

Therefore, the quote means "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off from their resources and power as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."

15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

Firstly, this verse is related to possible habitual fornicators, prostitution despite being muslims. Consequently, for somebody who wants to be a morality police, in this case, the court wants four reliable eye-witnesses to testify and if the accuser fails to produce them, it regards him as at fault. As we can see, it is also almost impossible to prove a women of lewdness as again, you'll need four reliable witnesses. Islam recognizes the woman's honor as something very serious and holy, and it must not be tampered or joked with. The women is innocent until if the witnesses are presented.

"Upon those who accuse honourable women [of fornication] and bring not four witnesses as evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are wicked transgressors. Unless they repent thereafter and mend their ways, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving and Most-Merciful. (24:4-5)" This unsupported slander has been treated by Islam with such severity in hoping no one even dares to cast scandalous allegations against any chaste women. Anyway, the striping can be cancelled upon the man's subsequent conduct if he repents, showing he is sorry.

Secondly, if found guilty, the punishment to be confined to their home, it is to protect society from their lewd activities. (As a side note, confined is translated wrongly, it means keep them, not to imprison them.)This is a temporary injunction. At this time, it is the family's responsibility to WORK IT OUT with them, "confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. (4:15)", to try reform them and put in some sense and reach a conclusion.

The last part of the quote, "or Allah ordain for them some (other) way." rules out any death punishment because it tells us that after the repentance and amendment, then good, things are solved.

Finally, this is only for cases brought to court.

Originally posted by pkchukiss:
I am very curious: Muslims all around the world keep denying the link towards Muslim extremists as the antagonists in terrorist acts around the world. Just look at their own backyard. 85 lashings to a young boy. Even the worst criminal cases in Singapore get 20, and caning is limited to healthy male adults.

We have condemned those acts repeatedly. It is unfortunate moderate voices are drowned out in the place of extremists news.

nightzip SG

ok, just wanna say that i agree on all points spoken by SBSK and stupidissmart.

Find that their notions are reasonable and logical. Very Happy

Anyway think its getting long winded. Mad

Also, please refrain from extreme remarks by all. Mr. Green

CyanSupra SG

Shocked

stupidissmart SG

Didnt i explained? Which average human has 3 hands or more?!

U r wrong in the sense tat the Arabic "aydiyahuma" is also the plural of "yad" (hand) used in dual form. Therefore it meant tat the number aydiyahuman suggest is 2 if it is applied to "hand". Taken literally, the quran do say tat thieves had to cut off their hands.

Therefore, the quote means "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off both of their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."

U say tat hand may mean wealth, possession of responsibility and resources, u might as well force the word "hand" to be anything u want. U can say 'hand' may means a door, or 'hand' to be a hen or the word 'hand' is desire or anything.

Firstly, this verse is related to possible habitual fornicators, prostitution despite being muslims

Tis verse can also be implied on rape victims as well. Lewdness can be applied to people having premarital sex, watch porn, dress in a sexy manner or masturbate as well.

Secondly, if found guilty, the punishment to be confined to their home, it is to protect society from their lewd activities. (As a side note, confined is translated wrongly, it means keep them, not to imprison them.)This is a temporary injunction. At this time, it is the family's responsibility to WORK IT OUT with them, "confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. (4:15)", to try reform them and put in some sense and reach a conclusion.

Literally the text meant tat this person had to be be kept under house arrest till she die unless allah come out with a miracle or something to prove her innocence. U r not reading the text literally but adding in your own interpretation. If u do tat and u can add in anything u want.

Like tat I can also add in the things I want to. They say confine them to house untill their death and u say it is a temporary injunction. U know why it is temporary ? It is because she will be killed there so tat the family can be faithful in ensuring she never leave the house alive.

We have condemned those acts repeatedly. It is unfortunate moderate voices are drowned out in the place of extremists news.

Wat is the difference between u and the other muslim extremists who add in anything they like into the scripture ? The scripture says 'A' u guys go around in a totally crazy interpretation of it to interprete it as 'B'. R u doubting the grammer of your god when he write the scripture ?

seed SG

Actually, honestly, i'm tired of explaning things. Laughing You're trying to dsicredit me every now and then instead of gaining an understanding from the regular muslims point of view. I'm chickening out.

U r wrong in the sense tat the Arabic "aydiyahuma" is also the plural of "yad" (hand) used in dual form.

Wth? Laughing IS the plural (three or more) of (hand) used in dual form. Thus, what you said further has been negated. Again, in addition in that quote is given its figurative meaning of refering to wealth, possession of responsibility and resources.

Tis verse can also be implied on rape victims as well. Lewdness can be applied to people having premarital sex, watch porn, dress in a sexy manner or masturbate as well.

Huh poor them if they were implied. Sad

Look in the context where it was written lah. The verse related is to prostitution as is evident in the WOMEN being specified. They are the one who primarily have indulged in this act. This is also supported by the fact in the next verse, the punishment regarding both ordinary males and females who commit adultery is related.

Literally the text meant tat this person had to be be kept under house arrest till she die unless allah come out with a miracle or something to prove her innocence. U r not reading the text literally but adding in your own interpretation. If u do tat and u can add in anything u want.
Like tat I can also add in the things I want to. They say confine them to house untill their death and u say it is a temporary injunction. U know why it is temporary ? It is because she will be killed there so tat the family can be faithful in ensuring she never leave the house alive.

It is really too simplistic to take everything literally or without seeing the verses in context, comparing the verses and words in them with others. What i was taught is what i have said above. The temporary injunction - This girl is caught for prostituting herself. Shes kept at home. Now her family must teach her dats wrong of her to do that, influence her to stop giving away her body. The girl doesnt want. The family has to keep reforming her, giving her support until shes promised not to do so again. She doesnt want still? The family have to keep on with that, until shes whenever. But till whenever its like impossible, for which girl will still choose to prostitute when she has her family beside her now? So.. whens shes amended, that is when Allah has saved her in a way.

Huh i didnt doubt the grammer. The Arabic language language is complex. You can easily twist the meanings in other languages. Did you know the word "no" could mean "yes" in some sentences and speaking of the past could actually mean you are speaking of the present? Thats why, it is kinda easy to get confused. And thats why, anybody will need proper guidance from the proper authority.

Well now, i'm know not qualified to talk about these issue. As i said, i'm chickening out from now on. I'm also afraid if ill be saying the wrong things from now on. You can forward the original questions to MUIS. Laughing http://www.muis.gov.sg/english/home.aspx *dozes off to sleep.......*

hoMMe SG

those terrorist represents alot about islam Rolling Eyes

hoMMe SG

not forgeting all the jihads that they have Rolling Eyes

stupidissmart SG

http://www.mit-pak.info/Chapter6.html

And thief, either male or female, cut the hand of both; this is recompense for their earning and terrible punishment from Allâh. The Power of Allâh is prevailing over everything and HE is All-Wise and Watchful.

http://www.kamous.com/translator/s.asp?l=1066 search for the english word "steal"

And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=steal&size=First+100

[5.38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html

005.038
YUSUFALI: As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
PICKTHAL: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

I am wondering if u do know the meaning of the word aydiyahuma as in all of the translations from quran websites, it suggest tat both of the hands of the theives had to be cut off. I had said before tat aydiyahuma is the plural for 2 when it is use in hands. If u insist tat it meant 3, meaning u r the best translator among these quran translators, and the word hand meant anything u like, then I can only say u r forcing the quran to your ideals.

Look in the context where it was written lah. The verse related is to prostitution as is evident in the WOMEN being specified. They are the one who primarily have indulged in this act. This is also supported by the fact in the next verse, the punishment regarding both ordinary males and females who commit adultery is related.

004.015
YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

In muslim, lewdness in men is never punished. Tat is why they r allowed to marry up till 4 wives. The only argument u said is it mention about women... and tat is it ! Tis just shows tat the quran, as in many other religion, is sexists and come out with rules strictly for a certain sex. Just because u say it mention only women doesn't means it have to be prostitution ! As said before, it may meant a lot of things such as premarital sex, masturbation etc etc. Again u do not take in the literal meaning of the verse and u force in your ideals into the translation.

The temporary injunction - This girl is caught for prostituting herself. Shes kept at home. Now her family must teach her dats wrong of her to do that, influence her to stop giving away her body. The girl doesnt want. The family has to keep reforming her, giving her support until shes promised not to do so again. She doesnt want still? The family have to keep on with that, until shes whenever. But till whenever its like impossible, for which girl will still choose to prostitute when she has her family beside her now? So.. whens shes amended, that is when Allah has saved her in a way.

Tat is again dumb. From the desciption u had written above, I have tis idea tat u think people prostitute just for the fun of it. nobody like to be a prostitute, especially in arab region ! They do it because of economic circumstances ! U say as though all prostitutes love to have sex, they experience some sort of psychological problem, need counseling and not because they need the money !

And the punishment is imprisonment for life ! Unless u r going to tell me u r a better translator than Shakir, Yusufali and Pickthal as the most they suggest is they can only be freed if the legislation had changed. Is there anything written in it tat ever suggest they be freed as long as she is "counselled" ? If u want to twist everything written in it to wat u like to believe, then u r really nothing different from terrorists

Obviously the translator should have a good understanding of the languange and present it in a way tat is most easily understood in english. From the above statement u r doubting the translating ability of the translators. R u trying to say there r no better men who can translate arabic to english ?

seed SG

Aiyoh aiyoh aiyoh, this is getting complicated. I'm washing my hands off this issue. I don't know what to think or say anymore. Laughing stupidismart, i didnt translate them by myself. They were taught to me. And i didnt mean for the women to sound like what you thought. I'm just hard up in expressing my thoughts. But i hope u get my idea. Well, these are some notes to go by.
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm

LittleTiger SG

Okie... i am not going to say anything about religion but meat. But what stupidismart say about meat i fully 100% agreed.

There are pinky pork but there are also bird flu, mad cow deseased and SARs.
If pork is really so deadly..... you wont hardly see any chinese around as they been eating pork for thousand of yrs.

And do u think cow is breed clean in europe? They are given lamb/goat unwanted internal organs to eat..... yeee... so dirty. Imagine chopping or grinding all those organ and fed cow..... i wanna vomit.
Both eat grass and bro cow eat bro goat meat..... cow thinking he eat his bro meat..... and he becomes mad... thus mad cow desease..... hahaha

Any meat left for a period of time will got worms one. Soya Bean? this is the faster worm growing vegetarian food which are rich in protein. So does it mean its dirty?

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