Opposition Party Memebers Here are pathetic

Lefleche SG

Juz my 2 cents...

in my research for my graduate degree i had to read parliamentary debates of countries like Australia and NZ where opposition members debated with the government. though the opposition( and equally many times the government were wrong) may not be always right but the fact that they were given the right to debate without fear of legal recriminations based on real or alluded offences had a healthy effect on the country. these are

1. there is no given assumption that whoever is in power is always right. so everyone has the right to contribute to the country without being made to feel stupid or worst, fearful. In the debate series, the debaters assume that what the other party says is open to criticism, hence they are prepared to defend with gusto and logic. overall effect, it sharpens the thinking of the country and the open debates, like between latham and howard allowed people to see and hear from themselves who represents them more. Like what roberteh said, the opposition is neutered even b4 they begin. no way u can see credible opposition, because even if they are credible, they won't get much airtime from our media about how good they are. unlike, democratic medias, where the entire government debate are held open for all to see. here, you usually see only the good about PAP rallies and snippets of the opposition doing stupid things. case in point, i remeber the tang liang hong case and the media coverage of the whole issue. can't help but think the whole thing was misrepresented to the public by the media for certain political achievements.

2. it is not true that the statement "we know what is good for you holds true for all governments." thousands of years of recorded human history teaches us that power unchecked corrupts. i was very perturbed when then PM Goh said something to the effect that the PAP proved that the adage "absolute power corrupts absoultely" has been debunked by the PAP because in the 30+ years it held power, it had not been corrupted. think again! the thin line of being corrupted can be crossed by those who define the line, and if history is of any use, it showed us it happened over and over again. the extremely short history of singapore is too short to prove anything. Does the PAP want to bet against thousands of years of recorded history? remeber, they bet, we lose.

That's why mature countries evolved into democracies only after much blood have been shed. because those who hold power would never tolerate opposiition in any form. it is human nature. that is also why an opposition is so important to the continuation of a country's future. what we have here is a form of paying lip service to the form of having an opposition in the political system but much has been done to neuter it. i believe the opposition is not made up of fools but they have certainly been portrayed as such.

so far we have a decent government but again history proved that no dynasty lasted more than 3 good emperors usually. We are into our 3rd PM...do you think the 10th PM of Singapore would be as good as the first? perhaps.

if we test our candidate's either through trials (like Lee Kuan Yew) or through a tough selection/election process against a tough opponent who has nothing to fear speaking up against the imcumbent. i respect LKY because no one can doubt the odds he overcame but our leaders now are groomed, practically from birth, being told that they are somebody, without the test of hardship or elections. perhaps thats y they think they are really somebody and could even imagine that they can even go get themselves in between china and taiwan and think that the people there are gonna be awe-struck by their views. perhaps back here in s'pore they are already too used to having the media agreeing with them and praising them for the 'wisdom' they display in every silly little thing they say.

i fear we are politically inbreeding already. never spelt well for governments in history, would we be different?

sheesh..i am rambling and it is so late...am i making sense?

oldbreadstinks SG

for corruption in the pap, it depends on how you see it and to what extend you consider it corruption
if you're asking me , naturally i'll say that the pap is rotten to the core

but for the pap , the line for them is different,
what maybe considered corruption in our eyes maybe be an accepted form of life for them

arburthen? SG

Yes everything may be intact, but don't forget none of the opposition has ever come to power and none of them knows how to run a government except maybe a ward or two.

Only PAP has been the ruling party for last 30 odd years thats means the 84 PAP MPs which you are hoping to boot has the membership support from LTA, MRT, SAF, NEL, SCDF, Police and what not.

If I was the ruling party and I just lost majority power to a political newbie opposition before I leave office I will turn everything upside down. And inform all my supporters to not cooperate and drag their feet on general population issues.

By the time the opposition figures out how to run a government the term is up and the people by then has had enough of all the blunders and experimentation c ockups from the new government will be begging for my party's return to power.

Classical case look at indonesia, they didn't want surharto so they brought on in a so call democratic government hoping things would be better, apparently not. In almost 10years they have had 4 governments change hands, civil unrest, another civil war in Acheh, endless riots, ethnic clensing violence and these terroists who were hiding in the shadows now brazenly walk in daylight, need I say more?

The people of indonesia has had enough. And now the they are begging for a military figurehead to return to power as seen in their most recent election.

I don't agree with you. And frankly I don't think you know what the hell you talking about.

Thats why I say if opposition want to come to power can they take over seamlessly? If all the pap ministers just drop everything and walk out tomorrow to go holiday for a year can the current opposition able to come in and 'catch it' and continue to run things as though nothing has happened?

goh meng seng SG

The answer is yes.

If countries all over the world could do it, why do you think it is impossible to do it here in Singapore? Asian countries did it too; so the "Asian Values" doesn't work here.

People are very "pragmatic", especially in Singapore. PAP thought they have "all the support" from people, but this is superficial. Most of those so call "supporters" only support it when it got the power. They have vested interests. Thus, if it loses power, these supporters will disappear. This happens to Suharto also, who has built up a whole network of "support" but eventually fell through it. Wink

That is what happen to KMT in Taiwan too. However, KMT is slightly better as it could manage to keep its support base, though smaller in size.

Again, such "worry" theory is meaningless. The decay of PAP has begun more than 10 years ago. It is just a matter of time before it totally crumbles. Believe it or not, GRC is really a double edged sword. It is the source of weakness for PAP to evolve into doom. IF PAP doesn't reintroduce political competition via political reforms, it is just a matter of time that PAP would be split and become history in the end.

Goh Meng Seng

arburthen? SG

Are you sure it fell thru, no trouble now is only because every government of indonesia that came to power after Suharto has wisely stayed away from investigating him. And now after 10years 'maybe' indonesians will see some light at the end of the tunnel.

None of the opposition here in singapore has so shown me any confidence, if you are willing to gamble next 10years of experimentation with an unknown with no key supporters whatsoever in any current government agencies by all means go ahead vote for whomever you want.

But know one thing none of the foreign investors will wait that long, the minute they smell trouble or unrest, they will pack up and go.

I on the other hand will be more willing to wait for PAP to split up at least that way the group that splits away still retains semblence of support from various government agencies. And that is something to show for.

fymk SG

The way I see it . If I think there is a credible opposition party with credible ideas, I might fly back and do voting as a Singaporean.

CSJ has been hung up and overpublicised as the monkey to lambast other good opposition parties. I don't like his idiotic behaviour who just loves the attention and gets used as an example for the reason not to vote the other side.
To be fair to all , I decided to do a little reading ...

I read the old WP manifesto which is unfortunately the latest 1994 online- I am interested in the revised version for this year. Any WP members care to answer my questions?

Health care ideas are good but unfortunately in the 1994 version of the manifesto , it is not feasible to open more hospital beds nor convalescent since considerations have to be given the international and domestic shortage of nurses as well as the frequent movement of nurses plus other health care professionals across borders. Trained nursing aides or foreign nurses will also backfire on the system in the long term . How would you tackle the problem
Health care costs - how would you propose to balance healthcare cost without creating a long and deep deficit in the budget? Australia , UK - those with public health systems are busting out .

Now education - I like the ideas but I pose this -
university - if tuition fees are kept minimally and places are increased - how would WP propose to keep university facilities and research fully funded and up to date? How about overcrowded classrooms or lecture halls? I would also like to see a graduate entry program for those who are willing to retrain for other professional jobs. Not an important priority for me but I just would like to add Smile . How about the scholar system? A level scholars? Why not extend psc scholarships to polytechnic students?
Promote tradesmen training like plumbers, electricians and mechanics training but u have to get rid of the stigma of ITE as those who cannot make it anywhere (harsh but the stigma does exist)

I am all for helping the lower income groups but I don't want a welfare state .

goh meng seng SG

Dear fymk,

Our latest manifesto is at its finalization stage. Hopefully it could be out by year end. I will keep you posted on it. Wink

You have raised very valid and important question; how to finance some of the things mentioned in our manifesto?

I will touch on this one in my "Vision" piece, of the role of government and public Finance.

For the meantime, I am having a little discussion in YPAP forum about this "overall vision", Democratic Socialism. PAP used to subscribed to Democratic Socialism but I think they have abandoned it totally. I will post part of my reply to this vision here.... please bear with me, this is not a complete opinion:

But I think socialism is inevitable. It is a matter of what form of socialism we want. There is a "new form" of socialism evolving in the world.

I believe in Democratic Socialism, just as PAP had believed in it in its foundation years. And it is true, PAP is neither democratic nor socialist after 39 years of evolution.

The ills of capitalism don't lie on the meritocracy it suppose to embrace. It lies on the miscontrued belief of elitism, cronyism as "meritocracy". Thus, in the end, we are walking towards to the similar ends of feudalism, which has proven that it could not work at all. The predicted "uprising" has the root cause of cronyism and elitism, not "meritocracy". In fact, if capitalism could stick closely to the foundation of meritocracy, it could have lasted forever, theoretically.

I do not see socialism as a full control of factors of production. If it is such, then it cannot work as it is against human nature. Ironically, it is a matter of relativity that defines socialism, against the evolving ills of capitalism. Socialism, to a new age definition, is to uphold social justice and equality, in terms of Equal opportunity which is in fact, an extension of meritocracy! Yes, upholding the very foundation of capitalism, meritocracy. Socialism is to preven the evolution of the social ills of elitism and cronyism which would most probably bring us back to feudalism.

It is inevitable that we should have socialism as when capitalism evolves, it will naturally ended up with inequality in income distribution. The only way to prevent "uprising" due to extreme difference in social distribution of wealth, is to have socialism as a mechanism of redistribution of income and resources by means of govt intervention. If not, allowing capitalism to carry on developing without any controls, it will result in what we have now, structural unemployment which will eventually result in extreme poverty within the capitalist system. When resources and job opportunities lessen, cronyism and elitism will take its bite further. It will become a vicious cycle.

Thus, in my view, we will still need a form of democratic socialism to fill up the gaps left by capitalism. PAP seems to have forgotten all its past. They should seriously relook into their idealism again.

Goh Meng Seng

Chia Ti Lik SG

How do you define breed on hatred?
What do you mean by creation energy?

Chia Ti Lik SG

Older than you i hope! Very Happy

Chia Ti Lik SG

Finally you got the spelling correct.

Chia Ti Lik SG

When the PAP came to power they also did not have prior experience. Smile

Yes that true but the law requires them to listen to the Legislature appointed Executive. When they have been booted out, who will listen to them? Maybe some stalwarts but not the Civil Service, they have the backing of the Law when it comes to this.

That is your hypothesis but it seems that you have forgotten that when the new incumbent is in power the entire ministries and stat boards report to their new bosses. They need not do everything themselves. Just set out policy directions. The new bosses do not have to re-invent the wheel just make improvements where needed.

Are you saying that Singapore is the same as indonesia?
What basis for comparison do you have?
Do you know how big is Singapore ang how big is Indonesia?

I don't agree with you.

That's OK. you have the right to. i wont hate you for that. Very Happy

And frankly I don't think you know what the hell you talking about.

Oh my! that's serious perhaps you should go find out more first.
Try to understand how the political system works then continue your posts.

Thats why I say if opposition want to come to power can they take over seamlessly?

Anyway, the original question is if the opposition come to power can they take over seamlessly. Now it has mutated. My my these days many things mutate not just viruses. and at an alarming rate too! Very Happy

If all the pap ministers just drop everything and walk out tomorrow to go holiday for a year

Ask yourself frankly, will they do it? They will not even fight an election on a level playing field. Will they ever do that? Very Happy

can the current opposition able to come in and 'catch it' and continue to run things as though nothing has happened?

The finale of your reply shows the unfairness of your reasoning.
"can the current opposition" is what you say now.
The current opposition cannot kcik the PAP out and it cnnot even contest all 84 seats.

The original question was "if the opposition comes into power" this means more than 42 seats must be won.

At the last GE less than 42 seats were contested.

The answer to your final question is of course a "No." Smile

Chia Ti Lik SG

Now at least you like my buddy.
So that makes me think....
i think i can grow to like you. Very Happy

Chia Ti Lik SG

by the way the General Elections come every 5 years not 10.
See my answer in previous reply. The Civil Service is duty bound to obey the new government in accordance with the law if that materialises.

But know one thing none of the foreign investors will wait that long, the minute they smell trouble or unrest, they will pack up and go.

Thats what the PAP wants you to believe - trouble and unrest
Foreign investors come from countries and in most countries there has been change of governments and also more level political playing field, elections are nothing scary to them

On the other hand, no need to wait that long given the current economic policies of the present government, some investors have already packed up and left.

I on the other hand will be more willing to wait for PAP to split up at least that way the group that splits away still retains semblence of support from various government agencies. And that is something to show for.

That will never happen. The hypothetical scenario of PAP split was first brought out by PM Lee (Senior) then as he was as his view as to when there would be two party Parliament in Singapore.

You can wait. thats your prerogative. however you will be waiting for a long time because this so called split will never happen because the PAP people will not want to rock their own boat in an attempt to introduce reform. And reform is something which they are very much unwilling to undertake in substance.

drawer SG

Well said!Totally agree with u....some ppl when they talk,they never tend to use their brain to think.....or maybe,they are undercovered PAP agents try to come in here n talk bullsh*t,who knows.

EmptyCage SG

Not many seem to support your view here.

EmptyCage

paperchicken SG

you dun need to like me lah.

Got any ideas just post them up here for discussion. If its good ppl will automatically support. if its bad get ready for the water bombs. Laughing

Boxer SG

Ok, if they are pathetic, then what about he who made 'honest mistake'?

No other talents?

Agree that we need political stability and that OPP cannot govern the country. And all we do is close the door and play S-League and think Tampines Rovers are the best. In time, our leaders cannot take on other countries. If PAP wants that, we give it to them. Let them inherit the don't know don't care population who blame them for everything that goes wrong.

We don't really need OPP. Because anything that goes wrong, just kao peh to MP.

As a businessman, why would I want to go against the ruling party? Why can't I just be an obedient citizen because all I want is to make money. If I were to be seen as a trouble-maker, the ISD can come after me. Sound like the Waffen-SS during WWII eh?

I have the following to say to the 2 extreme types of people:

Businessmen who just wanna make money:
Just be pro-govt, whoever may be the govt. Coz some things there were once illegal can be made legal again as long as there is benefits for the govt. Eg. lifting the ban of sale of certain chewing gums in exchange for FTA. As long as we share our profits with the govt, we will live happily ever after.

People who live their dreams and principles:
Pursue your dreams. If you want to govern the country, inherit this population that blames you for everything that don't go their way, by all means. You may be able to change them and make Singapore a better place to live in.

To each his own. There is no right or wrong. You just have to bear the consequences of your actions, and bear it yourself.

sgsentinel SG

I agree. Rolling Eyes

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