buying original goods hurts economy

CX SG

Originally posted by sgdiehard:

You are right, those are not the kind of software normal persons would buy so its impact is purely business. Now I cannot buy a typewriter anymore, have to buy a desktop, then have to use Windows, have to use words......this is an average person talking.

you'll be surprised how many pple are still using typewriters... look in a stationary store... they still sell typewriter ribbons.

ok... so u wanna use a computer to type? why not? buy a full system, it comes with Windows and it will be licensed. must u use MS Word? actually no... u have Word Pad. so technically, no need to pirate if all u need are basic functionalities.

of course, its never good enough... must have the latest version of Win XP Pro, Office XP Pro and every other cool sounding software the friendly neighbourhood pirate is selling...

I don't know who write the program, and I don't care. It is the companies who pay crap to their people, not the users!!

??? so... u think software just appears out of nowhere, without requiring R & D, without requiring labour?

either way, its still gonna cost money and consumers are gonna have to end up paying for it. there is a certain degree of ambivalence regarding exactly how much software should cost to the average home user, but i don't think there's any confusion that business users have no business pirating software.

and if the users buy more originals, do you think Bill Gates will pay their people more?? They outsource to increase their profits, not to increase their staff pays!! In fact, if their staff pays are high, then they will outsource. So, buy originals and pay them more??

nope... most likely not... but a good programmer that isn't as rich as bill gates will probably never make any money to make his innovation worthwhile cos pple just wanna steal his product and not pay him.

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sgdiehard SG

Word Pad also comes from Windows, you also need Window Explorer....can you see the world of computer is monopolisied by Microsoft!! No need XP Pro, how much do the U students need to pay to have a computer, without the pirated copies sold in the past, you think Microsoft will offer student package!! The presence of alternative is a market force, it is the market force that bring prices down, we see in the airline industry, cheap air ticket even at the time when oil prices are at record high. There are competitions among the printers producers, nobody make immitation printer. Pirated software is a market force at work!! Without which, we will be paying very high prices for software!

I said I din care who wrote the software, I din imply nobody need to write them. The copy rights belong to Microsoft, or other companies, not the writers!!!

I am not arguing for the business users to use pirated copies. Don't confuse between home endusers and companies, and software programmers and software companies!!

Programmers either sell their innovation to companies and make the money first, or they are working for the companies which mean they are paid first before even writing any usable softwares. Robin Hood din steal from the farmers, he stole from the rich!! Who owns the rights to these software, the poor programmers??

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The Barracuda SG

Singapore is a member of WTO. If we do not respect copyrights and fight piracy do you think other countries will trade with us ? Where is your food and clothes going to come from ?

CX SG

Originally posted by sgdiehard:

Word Pad also comes from Windows, you also need Window Explorer....can you see the world of computer is monopolisied by Microsoft!!

what talking you??? Explorer, Internet Explorer, Word Pad, media player all comes packaged with windows...

if u dowan to pay for MS windows, there's Linux... don't say there are no alternatives... there are just no alternatives YOU like better than pirated windows.

No need XP Pro, how much do the U students need to pay to have a computer, without the pirated copies sold in the past, you think Microsoft will offer student package!!

yes, they do offer student package and student price... just gotta show your matric card. but no question about it, its still more ex than pirated software.

laptops are also sold on campus and the all come packaged with software.

The presence of alternative is a market force, it is the market force that bring prices down, we see in the airline industry, cheap air ticket even at the time when oil prices are at record high. There are competitions among the printers producers, nobody make immitation printer. Pirated software is a market force at work!! Without which, we will be paying very high prices for software!

basic law of economics: bad money drives out good money. if u have counterfeits in the market, soon enough, most of the money circulated will be counterfeits cos people will just start to hoard the legal tender.

with pirated software, u are basically offering a cheap alternative by under-cutting the original producers. they R & D, they market, they produce and in the end, pirates sell and they get nothing. in the long run, it will just stifle innovation and be bad for consumers. it is not an economic alternative... it is counterfeiting, and theft.

ok... we have no confusion between home and business users. we both agree they should pay for software.

Programmers either sell their innovation to companies and make the money first, or they are working for the companies which mean they are paid first before even writing any usable softwares. [/quote]

and why do they have to resort to selling it to big companies instead of developing it themselves? easy money? quick buck?

or the fact that they know they CANNOT protect their codes from pirates?

Robin Hood din steal from the farmers, he stole from the rich!! Who owns the rights to these software, the poor programmers??

a thief is a thief is a thief... stealing from anyone is a crime. if u steal from the rich, he doesn't give away the rest of his wealth... he acquires more of it by squeezing the poor even more.

i understand that we are both stating a case that it is understandable for home users to use pirated software.

but how much cheaper can licensed software get? till it matches the street price of pirated CDs? no way... not unless u're willing to compromise on quality and after-sales support (no call center, no online updates, no documentation, no support of any kind... gee... if liddat, i'll rather use linux man Mr. Green )

competition in the form of different software companies offering different products is "alternative"... such competition breed product diversity, gives consumers choices and in a bid to sell, better products are made.

piracy undercuts such competition. companies will have no incentive to innovate because pirates will end up making the money from it.

Chin Eng SG

we should all drive imitation Nissan, Honda and Mitsubishi.
live in houses built by imitation bricks, use imitation tiles for renovation,
feed imitation milk powder to our infants, consume imitation drugs when we are sick, cook with imitation teflon pans, Razz

this way we can definitely bring the cost of living down....

paperchicken SG

Have imitation babies to boost population. Mr. Green

CX SG

haven't u heard of pple who had gone blind or died terribly from taking imitation medicine... Laughing Mr. Green

something about the type of alcohol they use in their imitation products... Twisted Evil

sgdiehard SG

Nobody likes to use pirated window but Linux is not much of an alternative. It is still a monopoly situation!!

I know how to buy a student package and pay a student price. The point is that it is much cheaper now than it was before. why? marketing strategy, to counter pirated copies!!!

What talking you? what legal tender hoarding?

The profits reported in Microsoft P&L are net off all the R&D costs, marketing costs and distribution costs, and all the salaries, and it is still phenominal, despite of the many pirated copies in so many countries! why?? They are charging what the market can take! nothing to do with costs.

and why do they have to resort to selling it to big companies instead of developing it themselves? easy money? quick buck?

or the fact that they know they CANNOT protect their codes from pirates?

Not easy money or quick buck but faster and easier realisation of returns. You don't need to have legal dept to do protection, no marketing department to think of how to pack and sell, no logistic dept to worry about how to distribute..... you can work from yr home, no overhead! Not because the programmers CANNOT protect their codes from pirates, once you sell the rights to the company, protection is the problem of the company!

You really think the rich will give away his wealth if they are not stolen?? are you buying originals because you are afraid they will squeeze the poor more? Very Happy the next time you need to upgrade you think they will charge you less because you are using originals?? Well, at least you agree that they are squeezing the poor.
Taking what is not yours is stealing; taking more than what you should is also stealing....a thief is a thief!!! Smile

I don't know the actual costs of a software, but I know in singapore you can get Windows at over S$200, in China only over S$100, the pirated ones in Singapore S$8, in China S$3 (ppl actually make money from that low prices!!) There is no need to match the pirated CD prices, but surely there is still much room for prices to going down. Can the consumer association persuade them to lower prices, or WTO? The pirate vendors did.

sgdiehard SG

Nissan, Honda....prices are okey, it is the government taxes which are high!! But there are still parallel imports!!! Prices of Merces came down, due to parallel imports, Cycle & Carriage cried father cried mother!

Make sure you know the difference, when you sell fake mill powder, you are making profits by short changing the consumers, it is difference from giving the same value at a lower price!! selling fake products at same price is stealing from the poor; selling pirated products at lower prices is stealing from the rich!! a thief is a thief, some thieves are better than the others. Smile Smile

LazerLordz SG

What is piracy?Is it just anothe point of view brought about by unparalled supernormal profits earned by companies whose work is outsourced and the majority of profits do not actually go to the warm bodies doing the hard work.The current policy of unfettered copyrighting is harming our own natural ability to be ingenious and find ways to circumvent barriers.There are those who believe music should be played as a passion, not as a tool to earn money.Why must people earn from other's enjoyment?Is it a business or a passion?

For entertainment products and games, please lower prices of legally produced items to a much lower price.You really think consumers are dumb a*seholes?You have cheap programmers who work for rupees writing your code, and yo usell your product in US$ and S$.Investment has already been recouped a long time ago I presume.Sigh.Politics of business will strangle the spread of knowledge at a cheap and affordable price for the Ah Sengs,Joharis and Kumars of our country.I prefer they get to utilise the computing revolution than be money pumps for MNCs which lack a cohesive social vision,

Chin Eng SG

Very Happy I know, I was just trying to be funny.....

Parallel imports is not piracy.

sgdiehard SG

Fully agree with you. Friend of mine in the Philippines said the MNC came and paid them peanuts in pesos for writing some software, which were later sold in Manila in pesos converted from US dollars. Most small businesses, especially those outside manila, will never afford the original software. Many locals are learning computer using pirated copies hoping that when they land up a job with a big local companies or MNC, they get to use the originals. I think the local copyright legal enforces know the problem so their enforcement is usually half hearted or simply going through the motion.
I once read through the resume of applicants for a marketing executive position. Many claimed they are computer literate who can use Microsoft Office, Java, Mackintosh, WordPerfect, Photoshop! While I do not doubt their computer literacy but i doubt they learned all these softwares using the originals. Coming down hard on pirated software before bring the prices down, the poor and the students will be among the first to suffer. They won't turn to buying all the originals. They will probably stay at leaning Microsoft Office, which is what Bill Gates want.

LazerLordz SG

Ever heard of South Africa trying to manufacture all AIDS related treatment cocktails and classify them under generic pharmaceuticals?That is one bold move which we should applaud.They are putting their reputation at stake by saying that human lives are more important than big bucks and profits.They are not denying the researchers and scientists their credit, but rather they hope to see a fairer deal when it comes to saving lives.The most callous thing to do is to mak money off the misery and suffering of entire nation.There are grey areas here, and if it helps to uplift the health and the literacy of the sub-developing and 3rd World, I’d say that using a copy of a product which gives the same benefits without the inflated marketing cosr is a morally right choice.

KamenRider SG

BANZAI TO PIRACY!!!!!

CX SG

Originally posted by sgdiehard:

You really think the rich will give away his wealth if they are not stolen?? are you buying originals because you are afraid they will squeeze the poor more? Very Happy Very Happy the next time you need to upgrade you think they will charge you less because you are using originals?? Well, at least you agree that they are squeezing the poor.
Taking what is not yours is stealing; taking more than what you should is also stealing....a thief is a thief!!! Smile

well... YAH! ... did u think i was on bill gate's fan club? i am not under any illusion that they are anything but heartless, exploitative scumbags...

and i guess we do agree that business users ought to pay while the situation with home users is a little more grey...

a double standard? well yes... a double standard that benefits you, me and many other people around...

point taken... it has been shown to work for movies and VCDs... release it quickly, and release it cheap... people will much rather buy the original if it was only slightly more expensive and just as easily available...

haha... i'll look forward to the days of MS Office Professional for $20 ... or Command and Conquer Generals for $18.99...[/quote]

The Barracuda SG

A monopoly is not always a bad thing. Rolling Eyes

Patent row kills anti-spam effort

NEW YORK - A row over intellectual property claims from Microsoft has dealt a fatal blow to an ambitious effort by Internet engineers to create a technical standard for curbing junk e-mail.

The failure to reach consensus on the Microsoft-championed proposal known as Sender ID throws back to the free market a process many consider urgent in view of the unabating onslaught of spam.

Under Sender ID, Internet service providers would submit lists of their mail servers' unique numeric addresses. On the receiving end, software would poll a database to verify that a message was actually processed by one of those servers.

Microsoft has applied for a patent on the method for polling the database. Though the company promises to make the technology available for free, it wants to bar software developers from further licensing it - a restriction that several members of the open-source community find unacceptable.

Sender ID's effectiveness and compatibility with existing mail systems were already in question before members of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) got hung up on the patent battle, said Mr Yakov Shafranovich, a leading anti-spam activist.

The task force, which works by consensus on Internet standards, dissolved a working group on Sender ID last week after deciding that agreement could not be achieved anytime soon.

Some experts say the decision could speed up work on a different spam-control technology from Yahoo, one seen as stronger but more difficult to implement.

The IETF is expected to create a working group as early as November to craft standards for digitally signing messages, an anti-spam approach Yahoo favours. Two other groups are in the works to explore additional approaches.

The Microsoft and Yahoo proposals, along with one being tested by America Online, aim to tackle e-mail spoofing - the practice of sending messages that pretend to be from someone else, be it Bill Gates or a friend in your address book. The technology wouldn't eliminate spam, but it could help identify and block a common spam technique.

It's possible for two or more of these technologies to work in conjunction. -- AP

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