A school with a military tradition

last SG · 2004-04-17T16:00:53+00:00

I guess different people have different opinions on issues such as discipline. I probably watched too much US shows in which they portrayed parents sending...

greengoblin SG

Hi all Smile ,

I have been speaking with some of my teacher friends and they lament the lack of discipline and respect that students are giving them nowadays. Some of them suggested having a school having a military background to support it may improve the discipline of the students as well as gell them to work effectively together.

Personally what I feel is that such an idea is not totally absurb. Singapore does have such a school, SAFEC. We can improve on this system and make such schools more prestigious and attractive like handing out scholarships and giving appliciants a good career in the Armed forces or even some defense related industries. These schools can be made boarding schools to allow the students to develop close bonds and may to some extend make them more discipline and independent. What are your views?

<sk> SG

Heard of West Point? We could have a college setup similar to West Point...

Well, it would be good to train would be soldiers at a military college however our army is so small we would have to cater the school for ASEAN students. Wink

greengoblin SG

Yup that is the line I am thinking along. West point is pretty prestigious in US and Singapore has the resources I believe to cater to a smaller school. In this manner we can get our kids in the school to shape up a little and expand our talent pool for SAF. Some of my friends suggested using that as a boot camp for delinquents. What do you all think?

TLK SG

What next? Our democratic state turning into a militant state?

greengoblin SG

Singapore is not exactly democratic to begin with Very Happy and there is no reason to believe that by setting up such a school we will lose our democracy. If so, US and lots of European nations would have cease to become democratic a long time ago.

TLK SG

There is NEVER any real democracy to speak of. US had ceased to be democratic after 9/11 anyway.

<sk> SG

Would boot camp help delinquents? Most times delinquents become wild is because their own home is usually a broken and wrecked home whereby the parents do not care about their child and take them for granted.

You are forgetting that our govt places brains over skills, hence a guy from RJC with 8A1s for A levels, national player in a sports, president of debate class, charity worker, NKF volunteer... will get a president scholarship while the guy who went to the military school in Singapore came out top of his whole batch of 5000 students, with airborne tag, marksmanship, demo expert, S1-4 course, IPPT gold, navy seals badge... would only receive a small SAF overseas scholarship(also depends on his results as well, even if he was top of the class and he got all Bs for A level, he would'nt get any scholarship at all).

greengoblin SG

Originally posted by TLK:
There is [b]NEVER any real democracy to speak of. US had ceased to be democratic after 9/11 anyway.[/b]

Yup so in other words...setting up such a school will not affect our democracy in the first place Smile

and west point has a long tradition...long before 911 Smile

greengoblin SG

This could be due to our prevalent mindset that academic success is all that matters. If such a boot camp can help a delinquent to change his ways, find a family among friends in a more condusive enviroment, I do not se any harm in it. I know alot of guys from broken families finding real kinship in army and till now we are the closest of friends, even closer than our own siblings. And let's say if the person as you put it excel in the school and attain a scholarship to furthur his studies and even get a respectable job in army, I see it something to cheer about. Being a professional soldier requires commitment that is on par with professions like teaching and social work, and sometimes we have to pay our life doing it. If we can get delinquents to achieve that level of thinking and commitment, I would say that we have succeeded in our roles as educators.

As for the RI or RGS issue, well they are blessed with better academic skills or better families...we cannot fault them on that...they too have skills that are lacking compare to us who have gone through the school of hard knocks. We each have our own set of skills and we serve our own individual roles in society for the common good ultimately. We need not feel inferior compared to them Smile

TLK SG

Yeah but we might lose whatever little democracy we have in time to come. That's my point. Smile

nismoS132 SG

seriously, i wouldn’t send my kid to a military school. to a 1 month boot camp, sure, but not a full fleged military school.

wuming78 SG

hm.. ur friends are lamenting a general lack of respect and discipline in schools, while u r espousing a military school. the latter does not solve the former u noe. to solve the former, mabbe u can suggest introducing military style schooling in all schools. but do you think tt is going to be acceptable?

greengoblin SG

I think if we introduce the idea across all schools it may be unacceptable. However if we restrict it to one or two schools maybe we can truly see if anything benificial wil come out of it. However I believe the main concern will be the potential abuse of power by those who run the school. However, it is giving parents too much interference in schools of today that the kids are getting out of hand. A good way will be to have an open carrot and stick system so that parents will abide by the decisions made when the school decides to mete out justified punishment to the would be rule breaker. But of course, the above presumes that those in power are fair and just.

CX SG

Originally posted by :

Would boot camp help delinquents? Most times delinquents become wild is because their own home is usually a broken and wrecked home whereby the parents do not care about their child and take them for granted.

that's an assumption... u could a home that's perfectly intact but a latch-key kid always runs the risk of falling into delinquency as well...

u could have perfectly caring parents, but they can't watch the kids 24-7... the 8 hrs in school spent in the wrong company can be just as damaging...

or maybe we just have the wrong values since teenagers mucking around are not seen to be "productive" and are seen as "delinquents" by us...

either way, shouldn't we be harnessing all that energy rather than forcing them to conform?

You are forgetting that our govt places brains over skills, hence a guy from RJC with 8A1s for A levels, national player in a sports, president of debate class, charity worker, NKF volunteer... will get a president scholarship while the guy who went to the military school in Singapore came out top of his whole batch of 5000 students, with airborne tag, marksmanship, demo expert, S1-4 course, IPPT gold, navy seals badge... would only receive a small SAF overseas scholarship(also depends on his results as well, even if he was top of the class and he got all Bs for A level, he would'nt get any scholarship at all).

which brings me to my previous point... by allowing 16 year olds to enlist in this military school and not treating them as delinquents, but simply as youths in search of meaning.

airborne, IPPT gold, marksman, SEAL, ranger ARE worthwhile achievements. we just have to recognise that.

and a military school might actually instill the right mix of discipline AND results and allow these students to excel.

the reason why SAFEC didn't work so well is simply because there's a BAD balance. they're basically in full-time BMT, part time "o" levels... and it is not intended that their students be groomed as potential officers. its more of a cannon-fodder production line.

but then, SAFEC trainees ARE paid... so maybe the solution would be that the students PAY fees and the gov't recognise it as a promising place to recruit future officers AND the students have the flexibility of taking their qualifications both into the armed forces as well as outside where their qualities of discipline, leadership AND academic excellence are recognised.

we shouldn't see a military school as a "dumping ground" for delinquents.

greengoblin SG

I am not sure if the paying of fees will raise the prestigue of the school. I was thinking in terms of scholarships as a form of recognition. In this manner, the government will show that it does not mainly place emphasis on academic results but on other forms of “intelligence” as well.

[ Neo ] SG

Now this certainly is an interesting issue to discuss about.

Personally, I am in favor of a Military School but itll not be the type that places more emphasis on reshaping and reconditioning young delinquents dropout from mainstream school back into their classrooms.

Just as the Sports School or the Art School has been tasked with additional responsibilities to attain apart from mere academic achievements, the establishment of a military school would certainly be a boost to the standards of future potential professional soldiers.

Apart from the inculcation of discipline and loyalty, an earlier age entrant into the service of the SAF would also certainly help to see a higher number of officers who would be capable and competent enough to be promoted faster as compared to current, all without compromise to the level of experience and people management skills.

I acknowledge however, that will also be issues that could make the proposal unlikely to face implementation though.

For example, taking note of s views that the school could be made open to ASEAN nationalities, I cant help but to be a little apprehensive about this aspect.

While I recognize the validity in ,s point out on the small domestic size of a potential intake, I fear to an even greater extend that in an arising of future tension or hostility between nations in ASEAN, generals and lieutenants serving in a potential enemy camp that is hostile towards us would one day used the knowledge that they have learnt from us to fight against us.

And another area of concern is the question of how graduates or alumni from this Military School will see their role in Singapore beyond their immediate office.

If there were to be some military school officers who have decided to join in as MPs or other non-military offices / departments in the civil service, who likely is their strong military background likely to impact on the manner, considerations and priorities for a civic matter?

In view of the potential key roles that officers from the Military School is likely to hold in office, what will the chances also, of an opportunity creation for an elitist power concentration in Parliament, or even in extreme but highly unlikely scenario - a coup happening?

Of course this is a hypothetical what-if.

But Ill really be interested to know, what if it really happens?

[ Neo ] SG

And just my 2 cents on the delinquency children in the mainstream schools, maybe if the schools wish to try emphasizing more on discipline, they would be able to achieve this goal better thru :

1) Making the average class size smaller, which is supposed to be done from next year,
2) Redesigning a teachers work scope into sub specializations eg. HOD, English, Math, Sciences, and Welfare / Disciple, instead of the complete generic functions type which is often the current case. And finally,
3) If they are still not satisfied from the results which (1) and (2) will be able to give them, maybe they might wish to include more disciplined sports such as TKD or Judo to the students?

Of course we have to balance the degree of discipline desired against what is realistic.

Cleary mainstream schools must not be abused into instruments that resemble more of a military youth camp than an ordinary civic educational institute.

CX SG

sure... if it takes off, and if its pitched at a level say... post-secondary? then of course it would be feasible to give scholarships to the chosen few.

but Westpoint incidentally, started off as a school for military engineers... the prestige of that institution was never purely military.

admission into Westpoint is fully funded and cadets get free education, healthcare AND a salary. by law, they are commissioned officers of the US army upon graduation and serve for 5 years after that.

at Westpoint, the cadets are offered a rigourous academic curriculum on top of the rigours and disciplines of a military routine.

needless to say, the emphasis of Westpoint is not the recognition of "alternative" intelligence, but to focus "intelligence" onto a military setting and application.

a military academy should offer opportunities for personal developments and the building of physical fitness and discipline ON TOP of a rigourous academic curriculum.

Westpoint graduates are in no way beneath their peers who went to Harvard or Yale...

it would appear that the emphasis is BEYOND academic results... u gotta be smart, AND disciplined, AND fit, AND have qualities that makes u a leader. ( "and" , not "or" )

my previous point about a military academy being good for youths was intended to show that maybe a military routine and discipline can help to harness and focus their energies and help them find themselves in more ways than books. not to suggest that we recognise mediocrity as "alternative" intelligence.

a military academy needs to shape all rounders to be prestigious and recognised... if u end up breeding narrow, militant, tarheads, then u end up with the notorious School of the Americas (aka. "school of assasins and dictators" for the psychos that were educated there), not Westpoint.

greengoblin SG

Such a school will best be a boarding school as well...to allow the students to develop a sense of independence. However, I foresee that the potential problem in such schools is that it will mainly be a all guys intake. Parents are naturally apprehensive sending their daugthers to a place where they can help the govt realise their procreation policies albeit a more undesirable and undignified means. Would segreation be a good idea if we want to admit girls?

Actually, they can use facilities at OCS and expand the place Smile I think that area will be an ideal place to build such a school and it is close enough to most military training sites...but blast the mosquitoes that inhibit the area Very Happy

CX SG

Originally posted by greengoblin:
Such a school will best be a boarding school as well...to allow the students to develop a sense of independence. However, I foresee that the potential problem in such schools is that it will mainly be a all guys intake. Parents are naturally apprehensive sending their daugthers to a place where they can help the govt realise their procreation policies albeit a more undesirable and undignified means. Would segreation be a good idea if we want to admit girls?

that's a little skewed and i have no idea how u put one and one together to get a possibility so bizarre...

servicewomen are NOT ALLOWED to get pregnant when they are undergoing training... its stipulated in the term of their contract when they sign on... they get CHARGED if they do...

also, we don't have so much of that here, but fraternising while in uniform is a BIG breach of professionalism in the US army...

Actually, they can use facilities at OCS and expand the place Smile I think that area will be an ideal place to build such a school and it is close enough to most military training sites...but blast the mosquitoes that inhibit the area Very Happy

the mosquitoes comes with the package... what are a few mosquitoes to train leaders of men?

your idea of the whole thing seems very idealistic...