New Malaysian PM - New Attitudes, New Approaches, New Bridge

Atobe SG

A definitely surprising change in attitude a new Prime Minister from Malaysia can bring to the old hard line attitude of a nation's psyche.

A more realistic approach in straightening the bridge, also brought out a more realistic approach that Singapore's acceptance must be given for the Causeway to be demolished - a far cry from the go-it-alone attitude of the previous Malaysian PM.

The attitude of the Malaysian Foreign Minister has soften tremendously, since he managed to keep his post in the new Cabinet of the New PM Abdullah A. Badawi (or more affectionately called 'Pak Lah' by all Malaysians).

'Pak Lah' was the Malaysian Foreign Minister before taking on the role of being the Deputy Prime Minister, and as the previous FM, he had a tremendously good relationship with almost everyone in the Singapore Cabinet.

The humilty of 'Pak Lah' to plan a visit to Singapore to present the design of the 'New Bridge' to replace the Causeway, certainly is a refreshing approach in bilateral relationship.

Is there a new waft of fresh air clearing the old ways of business in the Malaysian Government, in the manner that they conduct business with the Singapore Government ?

No more the 'Abang and Adek' mind set ?

KL to show S'pore new designs for causeway
KUALA LUMPUR -- Malaysia will submit fresh proposals to Singapore to try to resolve an impasse over a new bridge Malaysia wants to build to connect the two neighbours, news reports said on Monday.

Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi is expected to soon present Singaporean officials with new design ideas for the bridge, which would replace a causeway that nearly 100,000 Malaysians currently use to commute to work in the city-state, said Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar.

The official Bernama news agency quoted him as having said: 'We will then see what Singapore's response is. I think if there is a right spirit on both sides, these are matters which are not impossible to resolve.'

Malaysian officials have said the new bridge, which it hopes to complete by the end of 2005, would ease congestion and boost passenger flow between the two countries.

The project had earlier been part of a package deal that included an extension of Malaysia's water supply to Singapore beyond 2061.

But the plan stalled when Malaysia called off talks in 2002, after it alleged that Singapore was not prepared to pay fair rates for the water. The two sides did not agree on a design for the new bridge before the talks collapsed.

Malaysian officials said last year they did not need approval from Singapore to begin work on the bridge. But without the Republic's approval, the new bridge could end dangling in the middle of Johor Strait, which separates the two neighbours.

Singapore's Foreign Minister S. Jayakumar recently said that Malaysia would be violating international law if it unilaterally pursues the plan to demolish its side of the causeway and start work on a new bridge.

Leaders of both countries said last month they wanted to work to settle a string of disputes that have hampered relations for years, including territorial claims, the price of water that Malaysia supplies to Singapore, and the use of military airspace. -- AP

Extracted from the Straits Times, Tuesday Edition, 3 Feb 2004
This news article will be archived from the following site by
6 Feb 2004:
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,233136-1075759140,00.html?

stupidissmart SG

Talking about the bridge only, I support the broadening of the causeway. However I will not accept it if it will allows ship, no matter how small to be able to pass through it.

Atobe SG

The idea from the previous PM Mahatir is CRAP.

Only a fool will believe that Ocean Going Vessels can sail through the piers of the Second Link Bridge at Tanjong Pelapas-Tuas, from the Straits of Malacca, through the Straits of Johor, and exiting at Changi Point to the South China Sea.

From the sea front Raffles Marina Cafe at Tuas, one can observe how close the distances are, between the piers supporting the Second Link Bridge at Tuas, and it was most ridiculously creative of the previous PM Mahatir to come up with his dream of ships sailing in both directions of the Straits of Johor.

If one is to study the Marine Charts along the entire length of the Straits of Johor, one can see that the deeper parts of the Straits is closer to the shoreline of Singapore.

Currently, ships entering the Straits of Johor from the eastern opening, must sail through the sea channel between Pulau Tekong and Changi Point - through Singapore territorial waters.

The sea channel between the northern side of Pulau Tekong and Pulau Ubin towards Johor coastline, is too shallow for any ocean going vessels to sail through the Malaysian side of the Straits of Johor.

All ships sailing through the Straits of Johor will have to sail on the Singapore side of the Straits.

With the Western side of the Straits being narrower, between the shores of Johor and Singapore, there will be navigation problems when ships sail pass each other in opposite directions.

To allow Ocean Going Vessels to sail under the New Bridge, this bridge will have to have sufficient room below to allow such ships to sail at the highest tide charted.

This height is definitely not available at the Second Link Bridge.

stupidissmart SG

It depends on how big the ship is going to be. If it is huge tanker, of course it can't pass through Pulau Ubin. However wat if the ships r small tugboats ? The strategy is to let big tankers dock at Malaysia port while small tugboats will take their place to transport goods to the nearby region.

If a bridge is made, r u certain that after water is able to pass under the causeway the water level in pulau ubin won't sufficiently rise since the deposits in it get carried away by the water. Note tat for many years, sentiments had been deposited at this narrow straits since it is close at the end.

And wat is to stop Malaysia from slightly cutting their side of the shore make it deeper to allow ships to go through ?
Now the ball is in their court and they have a chance to do it, even though the scale of work involved may be big. Remember good and crazy minister comes and goes, but things concerning about the causeway is almost forever. I do not want to take chances.

CX SG

i quite agree that the idea of letting ships pass through the straits is silly also...

the amount of traffic that is projected for such a massive project would have to be (a) viable to m'sia (b) threatening to Sg...

u'll probably end up with a massive congestion on both ends of the straits, even if it was deep enough. depth isn't the problem... u can always dredge Mr. Green but are they gonna dig up J.B and make it into a massive canal zone to widen their side of the straits? i don't think so...

stupidissmart SG

When we made a decision, it is by weighing the pros and cons. If it is all pros and no cons, then there shouldn't be a dilemma in implementing the idea straight away. If it is all cons and no pros, then forget it, the idea is silly

For the bridge issue, if water is allow to flow through the causeway, wat benefits do singapore get ?

If we let the old causeway remains, or we improves the structure using the existence foundations, the cost will be kept lower too isn't it ? And another problem I had raised is the potential of Malaysian to allow small boats like tugboats to pass through. The straits may be narrow, but the ship now r more nimble. I for one do not want to take this chance.

nismoS132 SG

i say lift the causeway and let the water under the straits flow.

and this is purely from an environmental point of view.

Atobe SG

What is the difference between a 'huge' tanker and a 'big' tanker ?

'Tugboats' do NOT transport goods at all, they merely 'TUG' the bigger ships, and guide them in or out of their berthing place.

Sembawang Shipyard sits at the northern end of Singapore, and the location of Pasir Gudang is about 'diagonally' opposite.

SS'yard was previously the Far East Naval Base for the Royal Navy, and converted into a civilian shipyard, with a new drydock that is 400,000 dwt. From its website, the sea draught is recorded to be between 9 to 20 meters - according to the tide.

Pasir Gudang was a collection of villages, with the Port itself previously a Fishing Village. Massive dredging works were executed to create sufficient draught for ocean going vessels.

Next to Pasir Gudang Port is the Malaysia Shipyard and Engineering, with drydocks able to repair ships of up to 450,000 dwt.

Sembawang Shipyard
http://www.sembship.com/corporate/history/history_60.asp
http://www.interyards.com/sembawang.htm

Pasir Gudang
http://www.pbtpasirgudang.gov.my/PasirGudang-e/Pengenalan/MaklumatKorporat/sejarah.htm

Malaysia Shipyard and Engineering.
http://www.mse.com.my/

continuing post by stupidissmart:
If a bridge is made, [b]r u certain that after water is able to pass under the causeway the water level in pulau ubin won't sufficiently rise since the deposits in it get carried away by the water. [/b]

I will give you an OSCAR equivalent for great scientific thinking.

For Achimedean Principle to work, the amount of water rise or displaced, will depend on the amount of mass being added - NOT removed.

A rise in sea water level around Pulau Ubin, caused by water being released with the existing Causeway being demolished ?

The deposits have been - since time immemorial - flowing down the rivers from Peninsula Malaya into the Straits, with or without the bridge, the deposits have been carried and flowing in and around the vicinity of Ubin and Tekong.

See Archimedean Principle:
http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/bioarch.htm

continuing post by stupidissmart:
Note tat for many years, sentiments had been deposited at this narrow straits since it is close at the end.

The bad Political SENTIMENTS have certainly been flowing from the north and dumped on us at the Straits of Johor - causing all the shallow feelings that exist on both sides of the Straits.

So have the SEDIMENTS brought down by the rivers in Peninsula Malaya that make the Malaysian side of the Johor Straits continuously shallow, and FORCING all ocean going vessels to sail on the Singapore side of the Johor Straits.

continuing post by stupidissmart:
And wat is to stop Malaysia from slightly cutting their side of the shore make it deeper to allow ships to go through ?

Nothing except the budget - and its their ringgit anyway.

Nothing can stop Malaysia to do anything to do whatever they must do; but certainly the cutting on their side will be anything except 'SLIGHTLY'.

It will have to be a major effort in not only cutting the sides of the shore lines, but also DREDGING THE SEA BED for the ENTIRE DISTANCE of the Johor Straits - beginning from the mouth of the Straits.

If the Southern Ports located in Johor State are to be successful - especially that at Pasir Gudang - they will need to have enough manouvering space along the Johor Straits.

Johor State will have to see a major land slip into the waters of the Straits - up to 1 km wide, along its entire southern coastline facing Singapore, which will result in the loss of Johor Bahru, including the majestic Sultan's Palace, the Straits View Hotel, and quite a large cut of commercial, industrial and residential properties.

continuing post by stupidissmart:
Now the ball is in their court and they have a chance to do it, even though the scale of work involved may be big. Remember good and crazy minister comes and goes, but things concerning about the causeway is almost forever. I do not want to take chances.

Surely, the ball is in their court, and as PM GCT had said they will have to give us a good reason why the existing Causeway need to be demolished, and replaced with a new bridge that will cost us at least $500million.

Perhaps for the sake of long term goodwill between the two countries, Singapore will probably accept the New Bridge being constructed. This will result it being the key to open the deadlock on the Water Issues, Railway Land, CIQ, CPF belonging to Malaysian workers, and any other side issues that have been political baggage hanging over our relations for the last 30 years.

Will the New Bridge present any 'LIFE THREATENING' issues to Singapore's well being ?

The New Bridge can hardly allow ocean going vessels to sail in both directions of the Straits, as the piers supporting the bridge at the Second Link are too narrow - and the underside of the bridge is too low - to allow even coastal ships at 6000 dwt to sail through the piers.

stupidissmart SG

Maybe the tugboat is a wrong term to use. However from a website from Maesk, the width of a boat can go to as low as 25m. HOw wide is the causeway ? It is 1056 m, which can be considered as the shortest distance between singapore and malaysia. HOw many 25 metres ship can filled 1 km ? 40 ships sailing side by side. How wide do u think suez canal is ? The minimum width is 60m Wat is the problem then ? About your traffic issue, they can follow Suez Canal and state that the ship should move in one direction only. It is achievable

http://www.maersksealand.com/
http://geography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fi-cias.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Feo-direct-frame.pl%3Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fi-cias.com%2Fe.o%2Fsuez_can.htm

And wat has your sembawang shipyard got to do with anything ? All it ever says is tat OCEAN going vessel can go through half of the route along singapore, and a small one can easily navigates for the remaining journey. In the past singapore is able to dredge to make the water deeper. Do u think malaysia can't do the same for area near pulau ubin ?

http://www.mse.com.my/businesses/shiprepair.html

I believe u probably fail to understand tat I am NOT talking about your regular BATHTUB. We r talking about the sea currents movement ! If the bridge is clear, sea current will be able to flow freely not just at the southen end of singapore but at the northen end as well. During certain seasons, due to the different temperature of different bodies of water, sea current will moves from the eastern end of singapore to the western end or vice versa. Since the velocity of these water is fast, they will tend to cary away sendiments with them. As such, the depth of the water around the region will goes deeper. If these water is through, it will be able to clear away the sentiments brought over by the malaysia river as well.

Is the water distance between singapore and malaysia really tat shallow ? I doubt it as 60m in distance will be sufficient for small vessel to pass through like in Suez Canal. Will the work involved be tat incredibly great ? We r working on existing sea bodies (not dry land) with the new improved technology today, for a short distance. Do u think malaysia cannot afford to do such work ?

The bridge can be built, but it cannot allow water to flow through. If they just wanted the causeway to modernise, it can still be done, and more cheaper and safer if the old foundation is left alone. We can still negotiate with the malaysian since their main objective is just to modernise the causeway. Wat pros do we have for making the water being able to pass through ? It may turn life threathening if we r too complacent.

oldbreadstinks SG

if they complained on our reclaiming disturbing the environment what should we do if they decided to dig up the seabed? Confused

nismoS132 SG

why would any ships want to waste their time docking at 1 end of malaysia, to put them ships onto smaller boats to ship to the other end at pasir gudang, only to re-load it back onto another ship when they can save all that trouble and just dock at singapore and let us handle it?

stupidissmart SG

WHy do u think they will have a problem docking at one end of malaysia, then change to a smaller boat and send the goods directly to the region ? They could easily use the smaller ship and sails direct to Indonesia, Vietnam etc isn’t it ? Wat is more, these smaller vessel can still fare well in seas. Wat is the problem of them travelling directly to Australia or China if the goods tat need to be transported isn’t of a great volume ?

Atobe SG

continuing post by stupidissmart:
I will give you an OSCAR equivalent for great scientific thinking.

For Achimedean Principle to work, the amount of water rise or displaced, will depend on the amount of mass being added - NOT removed.

A rise in sea water level around Pulau Ubin, caused by water being released with the existing Causeway being demolished ?

The deposits have been - since time immemorial - flowing down the rivers from Peninsula Malaya into the Straits, with or without the bridge, the deposits have been carried and flowing in and around the vicinity of Ubin and Tekong.

Water levels rise by the tides, by gravitational pulls of the moon and the sun, and by the melting of the polar caps that ADD NEW VOLUME OF WATER into the OCEAN.

Whatever amount of surface water that is taken up by evaporation of the sun, will return in about the same volume as rain.

This is new scientific thinking on your part that with a faster flow of sea current - as a result of the removal of a massive obstructing Causeway, and the building of a New Bridge - sediments are removed by faster flow of water - which will rise to swamp over Singapore Island (?)

With a faster flow of sea current, the sediments will be carried from one place and DEPOSITED AGAIN to ANOTHER.LOCATION.

The faster sea current will at best wear out the sea bed at some places, making it deeper (as you had correctly indicated), but it cannot possibly increase the VOLUME of the WATER to affect exposed land mass.

Atobe SG

continuing post by stupidissmart:
Surely, the ball is in their court, and as PM GCT had said they will have to give us a good reason why the existing Causeway need to be demolished, and replaced with a new bridge that will cost us at least $500million.

Perhaps for the sake of long term goodwill between the two countries, Singapore will probably accept the New Bridge being constructed. This will result it being the key to open the deadlock on the Water Issues, Railway Land, CIQ, CPF belonging to Malaysian workers, and any other side issues that have been political baggage hanging over our relations for the last 30 years.

Will the New Bridge present any 'LIFE THREATENING' issues to Singapore's well being ?

The New Bridge can hardly allow ocean going vessels to sail in both directions of the Straits, as the piers supporting the bridge at the Second Link are too narrow - and the underside of the bridge is too low - to allow even coastal ships at 6000 dwt to sail through the piers.

Build a bridge that 'cannot allow water to flow through' ? What kind of bridge will this be, if water cannot flow BENEATH it ?

No one is disputing with this fact that the Causeway can be upgraded to handle a larger volume of traffic, and that water in the Straits of Johor can flow through the Causeway - with the addition of 'Large Diameter Through-pipes' being build into the Causeway for this purpose.

continuing post by stupidissmart:
We can still negotiate with the malaysian since their main objective is just to modernise the causeway. Wat pros do we have for making the water being able to pass through ? It may turn life threathening if we r too complacent.

As mentioned in my earlier posting, the idea from the previous Malaysian PM Mahatir to allow Shipping to sail through the Straits of Johor - (from the Straits of Malacca and South China Sea) - is ridiculous, and cannot work.

This is due to the existing Second Link Bridge that connect the Singapore side at Tuas, to the Malaysian side at Gelang Patah, that has a low underside to the water surface, and also the supporting legs or piers of the bridge are too close.

Even at the center of the bridge, with the seemingly widest opening between the supporting piers, the available channel is less then 90 meters, and with a very restrictive headroom - that will will be made more critical at high tides.

Second Link Pics
http://www.linkedua.com/linkedua/pg3.asp

The Western side of the Johor Straits - between Tuas Second Link and the Causeway - will be travelling across the SAFTI Live Firing Area, and the distance between Singapore and Johor coastlines are even narrower (not forgetting the shallower waters on the Malaysian side of the Straits).

Atobe SG

Originally posted by stupidissmart:
WHy do u think they will have a problem docking at one end of malaysia, then change to a smaller boat and send the goods directly to the region ?

The Malaysian Ports of Tanjong Pelapas do not have problems docking ocean going ships.

Pasir Gudang located near to the center of the Johor Straits will certainly have a big problem, due to the shallow waters in this Straits.

Both have a problem to compete with Singapore, and can only do so by dropping their prices to non-profitable levels - just so as to grab clienteles from Singapore PSA.

continuing post by stupidissmart:
They could easily use the smaller ship and sails direct to Indonesia, Vietnam etc isn't it ? Wat is more, these smaller vessel can still fare well in seas.Wat is the problem of them travelling directly to Australia or China if the goods tat need to be transported isn't of a great volume ?

It has to do with PROFITABILITY and ECONOMIC VIABILITY for the Shipping Lines to use ever larger ships to 'move more at one go'.

Similar to airlines using bigger planes to carry more over a SINGLE long distance trip.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Geographical conditions aside, navigation of such a strait as suggested by stupidissmart is not entirely logical, nor condusive to the Malaysian part. The Suez canal (or Kra Canal, if it's ever built) is taken out of necessity as the alternative is a much, much longer trip around the long end.

however, the island of Singapore does not represent such a great Bocking mass and it will be far more economical, faster, and safer to travel around the long way with top notch ports in the way then inch along through a tiny congested bottleneck for safety purposes. Good luck to Malaysia if they want to expore, let alone advertise this alternative.