NSF

last SG · 2002-07-30T23:41:30+00:00

come on ppl! i can see you are resentful becos of the fatigue involved, which you guys think is basically a waste of time. i do agree, life in ns would be wo...

User Name SG

Tat's y so many local talents arent locals anymore. Indeed I would like to work overseas.

guys tend to lose out to gals in the begining but don't u get a higher starting pay.

Dont be so gullible. That's just an impression made for us to believe. U think the government can control the whole private sector's pay scale? Wat? Guys get 50-100$ more starting pay? Who decides tat? Government? or the company employing u?? Rolling Eyes

In fact, y should we lose out when we have served the country??

Hey NDP wasn't that bad although burnt many suns but still got off and free food(always got extra) plus the occasion babe. Get to get out of camp too it beats any shit job i got Beside me rather go do NDP then spent 4 days 3 nites seeing stars in Choa Chu Kang or Mandai or doing PT.

U may be rite about that, provided u are still stuck inside as a NSF.

Don't think I remember any civilian guy got called back to prepare for NDP as a NS man.

Tat's up to u to believe or not. My friend was working for free, altho it was not this year. I'd check wif him if u insist on details.

But at least NS wasn't that bad.. less worries then don't u think? mon-sat in camp, book out chiong.. or work part-time then book in again. kiannia not like now must worry abt so many bills and savings.. But ain't complain and there is no use complaining.. Chin up.. always think of a better tomorrow.

I believe they will always welcome u back there. Mr. Green Go back so u dont need to face your worries. U can escape from your worries forever.

Magpie SG

Anyway User Name, I have no objections about a female being my superior but I do beilieve the govt can control the whole private sector pay scale. Don't u see that there are so many govt agencies undergoing "re-structuring" now esp in these dark times? What they do is that they re-trench workers and re-employing them at a different pay scale. Besides u can't blame employers the Singaporean mentality esp the chinese always wants to go for cheap labours. Smile I used to come from a combat unit and was involved one of the NDP parades although my friends and I always bitch about the reharsals but to me personally it beats outfield excercises anytime. I do beileve that I will always be welcome back into the army if u enquire the pay in the combat forces these days are now quite comparable to maket rates. But I'm getting a better rate outside and there is no need for me to be on call 24-7 why should I go back . lolz Everyone wants to turn back time don't u think...... Cool

amorphous SG

ok guys. so the conclusion is ...... Confused

User Name SG

Originally posted by Magpie:
Anyway [b]User Name, I have no objections about a female being my superior but I do beilieve the govt can control the whole private sector pay scale. [/b]

I am not talking about a female being my superior. Please dont mis-understand this to be a sexist comment. I am talking about the time we lost while serving NS, and when we are out starting a career, people from your same batch (be it the girls or foreigners who doesnt need to serve NS) would have had 2~3 years experience already. They would probably be your superior by the time u start work. 2~3 years is too much time wasted for a young man.

Another common misconception is that ORD-ed guys will get slightly higher pay. You have to realise that this is not true all the time (should I say MOST of the time, it isnt true).

As for NDP 'cheap labour', I've said it - it's ok if you are in NSF, what if you're not?

Also, alot of NSF/Men I know get some kindof injury- some more serious than others. Alot of people have backaches, hearing problems, leg injuries, etc etc...

To be fair, it is true that NSMen get some rebates for INCOME TAX, and also abit more of that New Singapore Share, but this is just a small amount of money. Remember the days when you get $200 for a full month of 'cheap labour' during NSF? Ok lar... I agree better than nothing. Wink

kan tang SG

yo guys
i am also 1 who hates ns.........
but i remember when i was in tekong
i saw sumthing which was what the old lee said;
something like when u as singaporeans duno the need of protecting ur own country...then the country will not prosper....and in real serious times........ nobody is goin to defend for us
juz like the british in the old days.....

airgrinder SG

This is the 1st time I am in this msg tread. I have just some comments looking at the posts.

Some of you consider NS as cheap labour, doing stuff for NDP, etc. So may I ask who should the government get to do? Singaporeans not doing NS? Nan, they're too choosy, look at the times now when the economy is bad, sporeans are still picking and choosing jobs. Foreign workers, since they offered the cheapest rate? I would agree if all of the "NS cheap labour" thinkers here dun mind putting their money i.e. taxpayers money into foreign economy.

Some of you said that NS man spent most of their time doing admin, waiting, etc, etc and not defending their country. What do you think soldiers in other countries do everyday? Do you think they train every minute? And, why do you think petagon employ so many people to sit in the office and do admin work? Why didn't they just get all of them to convert to soldiers?

Is 2.5 years of NS too long? How about 1.5 years? 0.5 years? 5 years? Who has the authority to say that 2.5 years in NS is too long? Do you know what is the percentage of the population in NS compared to civilians? If there is an actual invasion by foreign countries, how many soldiers do u think we can mobilised? How many soldiers do think will be needed to fight back the attack wave in order not for the state to be over run? In spore, you can be an officer in a short 10.5 months in OCS. Do u know how long it takes to to make an officer in the US? Do u know how long it takes for a Thai solder to be made a 2LT?

Who do you think spore can employ as soldiers if there are no NS? Mecenaries? from russia? how do you guard against them? Even if you can think of a group of people who can be employed as defenders of the state, how much are you going to pay them? What happens if outsiders offend their more to invade the state? Spore will be drown in a day.

The best defender of the state is a citizen with a physically and mentally fit body. The citizen is loyal to his country. In reallife, nobody would place their interests in another country if there are no gains. This is a fact from many instants in history, from how the Brits left us in WW2, how Genphis Khan got betrayed, etc etc.

To quote from a Chinese "Wan4 shi4 nan2 chio2 wan2 mei3" translated into "Hard to wish for perfection in everything" there is no perfection in everything. Even the best diamond has its faws. NS may be youth robbing, time wasting, but can singaporeans do without it? You dare to try?

airgrinder SG

User Name SG

Hmm... maybe cheap labourers? U seem to mean that it comes naturally that NS means doing cheap labour? Shouldnt we be training in NS? We serve in NS not to work as cheap labourers. Get it clear.

Singaporeans not doing NS? Nan, they're too choosy, look at the times now when the economy is bad, sporeans are still picking and choosing jobs.

Yup, as the Govt mentioned, there are so many open positions in the shipyard - the Govt have done their part in creating job oppotunities, its just that the people are choosy. Yeah, RIGHT. Wait a minute - shipbuilding? Now... How many people knows about shipbuilding? Would a qualified/ experienced professional, who is NOT trained in this field, want to work in shipbuilding as a Junior shipbuilding mechanic? Most people would want to have a career relevant to what they study/ their experience. Who prefers to work in a job where u totally know nuts about?

Foreign workers, since they offered the cheapest rate? I would agree if all of the "NS cheap labour" thinkers here dun mind putting their money i.e. taxpayers money into foreign economy.

Nahh.... Why should we pay foreigners for cheap labour? No lar. WE should be the ones doing the cheap labour. How about letting the foreigners take up professional positions in our own country? Come to think of it... they already did. Rolling Eyes

Is 2.5 years of NS too long? How about 1.5 years? 0.5 years? 5 years? Who has the authority to say that 2.5 years in NS is too long? Do you know what is the percentage of the population in NS compared to civilians? If there is an actual invasion by foreign countries, how many soldiers do u think we can mobilised? How many soldiers do think will be needed to fight back the attack wave in order not for the state to be over run?

All of us know that only the Govt has the authority to decide on how long NS should be. Well, the Govt decides on everything here, and it's final. When did the people's views matter anyway? (eg. price hike).

BTW, if u have not yet noticed, this is a message board where we share our views. I believe everyone has the right to give their comments. Nobody claimed they have the authority to decide. Some people commented that NS should be shorter, u have a problem with that?

In spore, you can be an officer in a short 10.5 months in OCS. Do u know how long it takes to to make an officer in the US? Do u know how long it takes for a Thai solder to be made a 2LT?

And the point is???

Remember most of us are NOT REGULARS! If NS is really ONLY a short duration, shouldnt we be making the most of our time training instead of doing cheap labours? THAT is why I feel that NS can be shortened.

The best defender of the state is a citizen with a physically and mentally fit body. The citizen is loyal to his country. In reallife, nobody would place their interests in another country if there are no gains. This is a fact from many instants in history, from how the Brits left us in WW2, how Genphis Khan got betrayed, etc etc.

I could'nt agree with u more. We can always expect a loyal citizen to fight hard for his country. If the people keep feeling that they are being taken for granted, that their views make no difference in any decision made, how long do u think they will remain loyal?

To quote from a Chinese "Wan4 shi4 nan2 chio2 wan2 mei3" translated into "Hard to wish for perfection in everything" there is no perfection in everything. Even the best diamond has its faws. NS may be youth robbing, time wasting, but can singaporeans do without it? You dare to try?

That's why we are saying that NS CAN be shorter - there shouldnt be any time wasting isnt it? Youth is precious, some people have better things to do than setting up NDP seats. Mad

Centaur SG

couldn’t agri more. ani more takers?

CenturionMBT SG

Well,not every youth are sent to set up ndp seats.
And what makes you think that 1.5 years is enough to complete training?Aside from your basic skills,which you learn in the first 1.5 years, there is also the vocational skills, where you learn to apply those skills.Of course there are festivals like NDP ,but doesn't it beats bashing through the jungle in brunei?

In many countries such as Korea and Isreal, where conscription is a norm, 2.5 years is a standard.Tell me any countries that trains for a shorter period of time.

The world of a soldier does not totally revolve around combat. Many adminstrative staff have to be done too.And stop complaining that you are being a slave to the government, setting up seats for NDP etc .In countries such as Thailand, soldiers are expected to do farming too.Arn't we better off then them in some ways?

Well, just my two cents worth.

MetalGear SG

Guys, its good to see that we have very passionate and vocal pple.

First thing on length of service: It is gonna be increased. I have a reliable source and yeah. they are gonna increase it. I have reasons to support such a statement. It was during the Parliament that it was announced that there was gonna be a pay increase for all NSFs, a big one too. Yeah! finally, after so long. But wait... something's not rite! All the things which were announced in Parliament, came in pairs meaning, one good, one bad. Its a natural thing with the government, give and take. Eg: Car costs go down, COE down but car Maintenance goes up. Next, GST hike but corporate taxes go down etc... BUT NSFs pay increase.. hey whats the catch? there is a catch, juz that the reaction would be too great and vocal if they said that the length of service was gonna increase too! Nothing is free one way, being a singaporean u should know! So the increase in pay had to be given first, then slowly later, slowly, we will be psychoed that 3 yrs is good for us. Ha! I am in the Army, NSF, a finance clerk and the finance system had some modifications which would say the same too juz that it would be too difficult to explain.
The 2nd reason why i say the length of service will increase: get this! IT HAS ALREADY BEEN AFFECTED ON A SMALL GRP OF NSFs. I can't reveal much, but my fren has been affected, of course with a much higher pay. So sooner or later, it will affect the whole country.
3rd Reason: Increasing the pay during a time of recession and re-structuring of government policies? Have u any idea how much MORE the government has to fork out to pay us? its really really a lot more. we are not juz gonna get something for free.. Do your own thinking and reason out!

greengoblin SG

At least they are respected. Are our NS boys respected here? Hell no.....and wait people say that NS boys earn more...but what about the latest stats that women are earning more than their male counter part in the same age group? Sad isn't it. All these talk about NS males being appreciated is a fallacy.

If I do NS...I do it 'cause I know there is a need to defend the nation. If I am to spend NS learning how to set up chairs...I rather be a bengal worker....

MetalGear SG

2nd thing on why we need to serve: remember this: one soldier protectin his land is stronger than 10 hired merceneries! Not to sound grand or anything but we are here we are cause our predecessors suffered in NS and maybe our fighting force sux and can nvr stand up against the enemy but at least there is a deterent act. They gave up their time and effort for the singapore then, why not us now and our future generations ahead? I have benifitted much from NS, i have matured alot and though i sometimes can't stand it and some of the stupidity which i see in the system, i can't hide the fact that i have learnt alot from being here. my frens who have completed NS and went to uni, they say that the lectures prefer to teach and converse with males as we are more mature,
not only cause of our age but what we have been through in NS. Think of this lah: We have to do NS, no matter what u do unless u leave singapore, So why not make the best out of it? learn from it. There are many things to learn. From a clerk's point of view, the lowest and treated the worse, we clerks are looked down but hey, am i going to fret over this and feel demoralised and put on the cant-be-bothered attitude? NO! i am going to learn as much as possible, and u guys in NS should too, no matter what vocation u are. Not only learn from what u do in the vocation but also those important values like treasuring the good times u had as a civilian, better appreciation of your family memebers, gf? NS will make u grow into a real man only if u wish it to, or u can waste away and make the worse out of it! The choice is yours, you can choose!

Job security: There is no such thing as that. Only simple minded pple think that the government owes them a living. u gonna remember this hard: ' NO ONE OWES U A LIVING' remember that, so stop whining about not guranteed a job cause there is no such thing. The real smart singaporeans know that the fundamental law of nature is in effect :' The strong shall live, the weak will die: Survival of the FIttest' u wanna get good jobs? work for it, show that u can do it! those whining are the weak, alwaz opening their mouth, hoping that someone can drop food into it. I use metaphors to help better relate. In conclusion: u better work hard and smart to get better jobs. No one owes u a living. If i am a boss, why should i bother about whether someone is local or foreign? i only care to choose the better one. The government is trying to drive such a point into pple, but it does it in such a nice and innocuous way that pple dun get its point. They still think that the government owes them a living, esp males, cause u did NS? so? big f**k? A layman is constrained by his environment. A great man works his way around his environment. U choose waht u wanna be: Survive or die!

i have said alot and bottom line is:
1. Alwaz be positive
2. Learn from any situation
3. No one owes u a living
4. Survival of the fittest
5. Good luck

mfscrewu SG

Very well-said, metalgear. Those people who whine about NS are usually selfish people. In their mind, they only know something as "me, and only me". They do not know that to achieve great things, there is a need for self-sacrifice.

To those who think that 2.5 yrs of NS is too long, tell me then what do you intend to do for those time if NS was indeed reduce? Get drunk and get laid in pubs? Don't tell me any crap about looking for a better job or studying. This is because look around you, most people at that age don't even need to worry about their family. All they know is that at that age, they want to have as much fun as possible. Do you think a male yuppie at that age give a shit about his family? More likely, he is thinking of using that money to buy some new gadgets for himself. If he is thinking of getting a good job and help the less fortunate, that's a different story.

In my opinion, 2.5 yrs of my overall lifespan in serving my country at one time is nothing at all. At that time, I am at my best physically and mentally so all the more I should go and serve. Yes, NDP is not a nice job, but why can't you look at it in a more optismistic way? Can you imagine the manpower, logistics planning? Don't look upon yourself as another small fry following orders. Look upon it as your chance to contribute to the making of celebrating Singapore Independence. So ask yourself, is contributing your 2.5 yrs in NS less important than having fun enjoying your "youth"? For those who answer yes, you are just another bunch of people who view Singapore Independence as less important than yourself and your own enjoyment.

As for job security, I concurred with Metalgear. In this world, no one owes you a living. So what if someone has a few more years of working experience than you? If you have the ability, then likewise promotion and pay increment will come your way. Don't be a green eyed monster whinning about foreigners taking your job. Prove to them that you can do it.

NathanG5 SG

mfscrewu n Metalgear

well said..bravo coudnt agree more wif ur guys

Centaur SG

Originally posted by mfscrewu:
Very well-said, metalgear. Those people who whine about NS are usually selfish people. In their mind, they only know something as "me, and only me". They do not know that to achieve great things, there is a need for self-sacrifice.

Define clearly what do you mean by great things? Mark out the position of the NDP or setting up seat in NDP?

To those who think that 2.5 yrs of NS is too long, tell me then what do you intend to do for those time if NS was indeed reduce? Get drunk and get laid in pubs? Don't tell me any crap about looking for a better job or studying. This is because look around you, most people at that age don't even need to worry about their family. All they know is that at that age, they want to have as much fun as possible. Do you think a male yuppie at that age give a shit about his family? More likely, he is thinking of using that money to buy some new gadgets for himself. If he is thinking of getting a good job and help the less fortunate, that's a different story.

This sort of thinking only applies to you. You really think that everybody aren't matured enough at that age like you? NS is extremely good for immature people like you. Evil or Very Mad

In my opinion, 2.5 yrs of my overall lifespan in serving my country at one time is nothing at all. At that time, I am at my best physically and mentally so all the more I should go and serve. Yes, NDP is not a nice job, but why can't you look at it in a more optismistic way? Can you imagine the manpower, logistics planning? Don't look upon yourself as another small fry following orders. Look upon it as your chance to contribute to the making of celebrating Singapore Independence. So ask yourself, is contributing your 2.5 yrs in NS less important than having fun enjoying your "youth"? For those who answer yes, you are just another bunch of people who view Singapore Independence as less important than yourself and your own enjoyment.

wat fun is there in 'youth'? Once you've step out of school and enter the working life. All the fun ceases and the problems start coming in... we have more realistic things to worry about then setting up NDP seats.

As for job security, I concurred with Metalgear. In this world, no one owes you a living. So what if someone has a few more years of working experience than you? If you have the ability, then likewise promotion and pay increment will come your way. Don't be a green eyed monster whinning about foreigners taking your job. Prove to them that you can do it.

easy said that done. if you're the boss of DEF company. You have 2 interviewees for you to choose. Candidate A has 2 years of experience, extensive portfolio of his past works with previous company but with average academic grades. Candidate B has 0 years experience(industrial attachment not valid as experience), only few portfolio with attachment companies and some temporary assignments but with higher than average academic grades. Tell me honestly who will you choose and WHY??

NathanG5 SG

hohoho..hey thanx for setting up the NDP seats for us..we really enjoy the nice comfy seats u guys setup during 2000 Padang NDP
...onli do some sai kang n whine until like that...hey get a life man..
if not happy go complain lah...dun come whining like a baby.. Laughing

mfscrewu SG

Centaur

When I mentioned great things, I mean the great things which a person is able to achieve for himself (it can be career or even doing something great and noble for a country). How often and how long is each NDP preparations carried out? At most 3 months per year. And for your info, it is not the whole SAF which is doing the preparations. The units are rotated each year so, in actual fact, a unit may undertake NDP preparations at most 2 times in each 2.5 yrs of NSF. In a Stephen Ambrose book "Band of Brothers", the soldiers did not participate in war all year round. During "lull" period, they have to build houses and facilities. So does that mean their service to their country should be shorten so that they only need to concentrate on fighting?

Just think, continuous training for 1.5 years, any soldier will break down both physically and mentally. The idea of performing some other logistical or adminstrative work is firstly to reduce training fatigue. Next, to reduce dependence of external agencies to handle the work. If SAF have to employ external agencies to deal with every administrative and logistical work, then SAF might as well scrap G1 and G4 branches. Not to mention the increase in expenditure for these external agencies. Should this happen, who do you think will be paying for that? It is the taxpayers and your tax will probably skyrocket.

Next, my point of thinking that most young people nowadays just wanna have fun still stands. Go to any pubs and discos, you will see young people there just drinking and dancing. It is not a matter of immature thinking nor does it applies to me when the facts speak clearly for themselves. BTW, if you want to start insulting and flame war, you are welcome to it. I will no doubt retaliate and make sure it is a good show for everyone to see. Either that or we can stick to a sensible discussion like what mature people does. Your posting certainly tells a lot of your maturity level, doesn't it kiddo?

The problems you mentioned? What are they? Cars loan to pay? Handphone bill to pay? Credit card bill to pay?? Realistic things to worry about? Maybe you will care to share. There are no doubt some of us with a heavier finanacial burden that could have occurred due to study loan and maybe something else? But all these can be solved by paying your loans through an affordable installaments.

In your eg of someone with experience, have it occurred to you that he/she was in the same situation as a fresh grad? It is because of his/her hardwork that he/she was able to earn that valuble experience. Don't assume that armed with a good degree, you will automatically get that job. A degree does not allow you to jump the gun. Learn to walk before you run. In any career you carved out for yourself, you should start at the very bottom and advance from there. So naturally that means lower expected salary for a start and plenty of hardwork.

Finally, your two points of rebuttal (out of four) is directed to NDP preparations. A bit of a pale showing, isn't it?

octega SG

I can say that it all depends on the person. Well, no matter what you do, as long as you are a male, all your spare parts are working, you are going to be in NS. Period. (Even you got heart problem, leg problem, eye problem, toe nail problem, etc they still wants you. You don't need to chiong, we put you PES E, you be clerk. See! In the end, you still end up in NS)

So all depends on yourself, since you are in NS already, nothing can alter it, why not do something useful or learn something useful (at the very least, you must learn the useful technique of how to 'chow keng')

Cover your eyes, Serve And F**k-off

My 2 cents worth... Cool

Centaur SG

yeah NDP is short. Other sai kang are unit-specific things. You want me to mention? e.g..... shift metal bed frames, clear rubbish from condemn room, shift flower pots from pt A to pt B, clear soil from monsoon and small drains, sweep and clear the rooftop. And when the rain comes, all the rooms in the top room will be flooded with water, then have to clear the water from all the rooms and clean the staircase dirtied by the water.... I can swear with my heart that I hold the broom and dustpan so much more than M16. Are these all the things you want to learn from NS? Since we're just NSF, isn't it more meaningful to learn and practice more on combat and free us earlier to contribute to the economy than to do this wu eh boh eh?

of course we not asking the soldiers to train streunously every day every hour. 3 - 4 days training + 1 day break for sports and games good enough right?

yes.. a lot of the youngsters chiong pubs but doesn't apply to all!! I agreed I'm not mature enough. You're the most mature, lao eh! (based on your posting to informer)

affordable installments will depend on your earning power which will link back to job and experiences topic.

yes. the person starts up as a fresh grad too but his 2 and a half years of headstart is an advantage. dun u tink so? so wat if u r prepared to do a lot of OT and learn a lot of new things? does it matter much to the employer? if you're biz student and apply a job in a pharmaceutical industry. do u think your employer will want to train you? why do you think he would want to invest in you? what happens if you learn the ropes and hop away? does he get the investment time back?

I join this forum not long ago. I'm still pretty low on knowledge but thru time, I may be your match... Cool

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