RSAF NEW TOYS

last SG · 2002-01-30T23:58:00+00:00

i heard that the malaysian are buying the F/A 18 superhornet. but i still think the EF 2000 is better but if the russian missile can configured to launch fro...

Joe Black SG

Here are some info I dug out from US DOD site:
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Block 1A incorporated a new High Order Language Computer (HOLC) to provide more processing power over the obsolete general purpose digital computer, improved fire control algorithms to counter maneuvering targets, search multiple weapons coordination to better manage engagements, and an end-to-end testing function to better determine system functionality.

Block 1B Phalanx Surface Mode (PSUM) incorporates a side mounted Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) which enables CIWS to engage low slow or hovering aircraft and surface craft. Additionally, the FLIR assists the radar in engaging some ASCMs bringing a greater chance of ship survivability. Block 1B uses a thermal imager Automatic Acquisition
Video Tracker (AAVT) and stablilization system that provide surface mode and electro-optic (EO) angle track. These Block 1B enhancements will allow day/night detection capability and enable the CIWS to engage small surface targets, slow-moving air targets, and helicopters.

LSD 41-class ships, a typical SSDS engagement suite includes RAM, the PHALANX Close-In Weapon System Block 1A, and the decoy launch system. SSDS further integrates the AN/SPS-49(V)1 radar with the medium PRF upgrade, the AN/SPS-67 surface search radar, the AN/SLQ-32(V) sensor, and the CIWS search radar.
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It seems that USN continue to retain Phalanx even when they have RAM installed on their ships. I would think that RSN La Fayatte would be better off having the Phalanx rather than RAM since they will come with Aster 15 or some other SAM. RAM is good, but by purchasing another SAM, RSN will have 4 different SAMs to maintain... going to be a logistic nightmare....

BTW, the 3 other SAM systems are:
1. IAI Barak
2. Mistral
3. the new SAM to be installed for La Fayattes.

Joe Black SG

Interesting news about RoKAF future fighter selection:
http://defence-data.com/current/page13482.htm

[snip]
Sukhoi reportedly offered the lowest price while the Rafale is considered a joint favourite with the ageing F-15K. It has long appeared that the Korean Government favours the F-15K despite the fact that the opinion of the pilots has veered toward the more modern European planes.
[/snip]

I think those with like-mindedness about RSAF should get Rafale are vindicated. The Koreans who are doing evaluation also reckons that Rafales present a better platform than the Typhoons. Unless the EADS going give some real good incentive (price + technology transfer) that way surpass those that the French are willing to give, I just can't see how the Typhoons will win. The Korean pilots have obviously tested the Rafales (and possibly also the Typhoons if one was made available) and like the Rafales. Are we not vindicated by their preference? Wink hee hee

Viper52 SG

Apparently as far back as 1998(or 99) RSAF pliots have been invited to France to test fly the Rafale. And maybe you might have noticed at the past few AAs when the Rafale came, they did take off at some pretty odd hours AFTER the flying display has ended. No prizes for guessing who might be on board. Wink The RSAF was not invited to test fly the Typhoon till late 2000, and as for AA, the real thing hasn't even been here yet. Points to a totally bo-chup attitude as far as marketing the plane to Singapore.

I think the main problem the Rafale has of selling to the english speaking world is that most of us read English magazines, a lot of which are written by Brits. Though not all are like that, when one reads comparisons about the Rafale/Typhoon in magazines like Air International or Air Forces Monthly, one does detect some kind of bias.

Like I said before, the weapons integration reason is a sorry excuse, the French have already stated that the Rafale is already currently integrated with US A/A A/G weapons.

But I do feel sorry for the RoKAF, politics are again taking precedence over national defence interests...

YourFather SG

It seems you got a little confused. SeaRAM is NOT the same as RAM. SeaRAM is an upgraded version which would incorporate all the sensors of Phalanx Block 1B, just except the RAM missile is fired instead. SeaRAM is the one intended to replace
the Phalanx. RAM is currently, as you have shown, a complement, handling the outer ring of the terminal engagement, with Phalanx handling the inner ring.

YourFather SG

Its not just politics in this farce. The money which Korea initially set aside for this acquisition has been severely devalued due to the fall in Korea's currency against the US dollar. And the F-15K isn't that bad if you consider the whole package US is offering.

Shotgun SG

Training wise, is it possible that we might work something out with the Brits or Germans should we opt for the Typhoon?

The typhoon and the Rafale really look VERY similar, what about their capabilities? Are they equal or different? The Rafale is the older plane among the 2, would it have room for more developements? Would Singapore be allowed to participate in the developement of systems for the Rafale or any other competing aircraft?

YourFather SG

They are not really THAT similar, personally, I feel that the Rafale is much more beautiful than the Typhoon. Can anybody state the rough per unit prices of each of the contenders?

Viper52 SG

Training wise, yes we could work something out with the Brits or Krauts, but logistics wise, it could be a additional strain seeing that we have so many permanent aircraft detachments overseas(US France Australia Brunei Thailand RoC). Since we already have detachments in France and US, it would make more sense to expand the current programs in these countries for the new fighters rather than start up and support a whole new one.

As far as technology transfer, I'm sure we can wrangle something out of Dassault. The reson why there are no buyers for the Rafale is not an indictment of its capabilities. Its because France, the developing country is not buying much, which in turn puts other customers off. But the reason why the French aren't buying is because they sank too much money into buying Mirage 2000-9s(not bad, but far from the best) and building that floating white elephant aka Charles de Gaulle and starved them of any funds for the Rafale(other than a small number of Bs and some Ms to equip the said white elephants air wing). Dassault are desparate to sell, especially to a high profile customer like Singapore, and might be more willing to give concessions.

It might be older, but by what, 5 years at most? And thats because the Typhoon was delayed again and again by development problems. And older might not be a bad thing, just compare the CFT programs for the 2. Rafale has already flight tested its CFTs and displayed it at Paris 2001(even giving a flying demo with CFTs), while they're still trying to determine the shape of the Typhoons CFT.

As for prices, I've read from a comparison sometime back that the unit price for Typhoon and Rafale are about US$60 million, though the Typhoon's might have been reduced due to econmies of scale as there are already several hundreds on order with the development countries...

YourFather SG

In terms of tech transfer, I have a feeling that the French will offer more. They are quite liberal with arms and tech transfers.

Viper52 SG

Yeah....no crap about "No introduction of new weapon systems to the region" or "moral arms sales policy" like the Yanks or Brits.

What a load of bollocks, if you wanted to be moral, you wouldn't sell arms to anyone. Period.

Shotgun SG

Lee Hsien Loong met up with Blair in London, and most likely, the Typhoon transfer could have been somewhere on the agenda.

Think about it this way. We've been a good boy in the region. We helped others when needed, and we nabbed 15 really mean people. Probably saved the lives of many US servicemen in Singapore. We went on to pursue the mastermind of the local terrorist organisation. If I were Lee, I would tell Blair that we would need a little pat on the back, and perhaps easing of some restrictions. It isn't too much to ask is it? Training with the brits shouldn't be much of a problem. God knows how often the brits train with the yanks, if we get the typhoon, we might get ourselves even more involved with their training, improving our own capabilities.

We all know that the brits and yanks are mutually supportive. When one does something, the other comes out to support it straight away. If we can convince the brits to help us, say maybe selling us the Meteors, it might put pressure on the US to release our AMRAAMs to us. A decision which we cannot convince the US to make, maybe the brits can.

Joe Black SG

But Americans are known for interfering arms sales to other countries, eg. Israeli Phalcon AEW to China, BAe Hawks to Indonesia, etc. I can think of 101 reasons why US would stop Brits selling RSAF Meteros. BTW, it is still a paper missiles. I would rather go for the French Mica at this time.

Viper52 SG

The problem with the Brits and the yanks is that you really don't know who you're dealing with. Bush and Blair might be friendly to us now, but who can tell when the next election comes around? A new government comes in, decides it doesn't like the idea of transferring technology to us, and its GAME OVER. After all, Singapore was almost person non grata during the later Clinton years, due to the fact that we had a couple of run-ins such as the Fay caning thing. Don't think that a signed contract is any use, after all that tree hugging b**** Helen Clarke went back on NZ's committment to lease/buy the embargoed Paki F-16s, even though the previous government had already signed the contract.

The French, on the other hand, do not tie their arms sales to politics. Same goes for the Russians, but I prefer French made to Russian made.

Joe Black SG

Oh look at Helen Clark, soon, there will be no more New Zealand.... it will be New Maori or Maoriland or something like that... She wants the Maori to have their own parliment... perhaps New Zealand will be split into two, the Maoris can have the northern island, and the "New Zealanders" can have the southern.... Smile

Shotgun SG

You’re right in a sense that we won’t know what happens after the next elections. Which is why we must work quickly to secure our AMRAAMs, so that such missiles would have ALREADY been introduced into the region. Then we can move on to procure the Meteors without any official policy standing in our way. By that time, if they still impose restrictions on us, we can in turn impose restrictions on the number of USN ships coming into port etc etc. Or maybe even allow the Russians into our ports once in a while. =)

Joe Black SG

wow.... that is treading a little too close to dangerous ground. We don't want to be seen doing things against the Americans' interest do we... Smile Afterall, we are still dependent on them for most of the weapons and spare parts....

Viper52 SG

What? Play "Who blinks first" with the Americans? Are you nuts? If watching Operation Enduring Freedom on TV taught me anything, its don't mess with the Americans. We need them much much more than they need us. Full stop.

As for securing AMRAAMS and Meteors first before crossing their paths, thats not very useful either. Unless we secure licence production rights(an I seriously doubt that) denial of the missiles, spares and other tech stuff woild really hurt. However don't forget, the Meteor is also slated to equip the Rafale, so I really don't understand why I keep hearing that one of the Typhoons advantage is the Meteor.

YourFather SG

LOL, are we going to start the great Rafale VS Typhoon war again? You people should know my position on this pretty well, heh heh. But its generally regarded that the Typhoon is the best fighter after the Raptor, at least B4 JSF comes out.
BTW, Typhoon in the CAS config really kicks ass, 18(!) Brimstones, along with 4 Meteors and 2 Asraams for self-defense along with a fuel tank. Fwah.

Viper52 SG

LOL I won't start it if you won't...

Best fighter yes but by whom? Its unlikely British aviation writers would vote for the Rafale would they? If you go to AFM's website forum, the pro-Typhoon anti-Rafale bias is as strong as the "J-10 is the world's best fighter" stance on the Chinese forums. By reading the link posted here on a couple of days back, the Korean pilots(ie the people who'll actually use the planes) prefer the Rafale. Says quite a lot actually...

BTW the 18 Brimstones config is just a theoretical loadout. I'd like to see that loadout in a real mission, will probably have the combat radius to fly from Tengah to Mersing and back Very Happy

Shotgun SG

Okay, ya la, we don't want to work against the US. But we can't really do jackshit to help them if they keep working against us by denying us of this and that.

Actually, I'm pretty torn between the Typhoon and the Rafale too. The rafale looks prettier than the Typhoon, that I must agree. I'm only hugging to the Typhoon simply cos the Luftwaffe will be using it. A plane both the RAF and Luftwaffe is working on together. The two titans of airpower 60 years ago. I don't know, call me sentimental.

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