KL sets its sights on being an arms maker

Joe Black SG

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,99922,00.html?

Another case of KL trying to follow whatever Singapore does? First there was the MRT, then trying to mimic PSA, then now what? They want to have an "ST" too?

The article also touch on the fact that KL intends to purchase T-84 for their army. Well, I'm glad that RSAF has been 2 steps ahead in getting the Longbow Apaches while SAF has gotten some Spike ATGMs. Well, perhaps its time also for ST to produce a good light tank (105mm gun)to replace the AMX-13 SM1s.

Shotgun SG

Oh yeah, new light tanks would help. However, I would rather prefer some new MB fuckin Ts to play with. Something like the M1HA export version. Yeah…... Export version of the Abrams, sounds delicious.

YourFather SG

I heard that there is an M60-M1A1 hybrid version (M60-2000 aka 120S) which incorporates the electronics and turret of the M1A1 with an 120mm smoothbore cannon. Dunno about the armour, but I believe they should be likewise upgraded as well. I think that would be a more cost-effective solution than getting an M1A1… I dont think a 105mm gun would be effective against the T-84..

Silenthunter SG

Jane's reported in 1997 that ST-kinetics is designing a "next-generation" tank. It's suppose to be manned by 3 persons, a driver, a gunner and a commander. Tentatively it's got a 105mm smoothmore cannon, electronic FCS/laser rangefinder.

Rumors said that it incoporates a reversed Bionix chassis(engine at the back). The turret is rumored to be technologically transferred from GIAT, makers of the AMX-13s and AMX-10s that SAF have.

Like Bionix, the tank will have external mounted add-on armours with internal steel hull. (said to be comparable to the M2 bradley's armor)

ST-kinetics already have a few surprises in development. Dun be surprised to see a light-weight AGL marriage to SAR-21 to replace M203s in the near future (similar to the in-development OICW rifle by the US army)

mouth zipped Smile

Shotgun SG

they would be missing the OICW’s key component. The Targeting computer and computerized recoil compensation.

Joe Black SG

Funny now that you mention that it is gonna have a 105mm smoothmore gun. I thought NATO standard 105mm rounds are all for rifled guns (M6 Cool rather than smoothbore guns. Even the French TML 105mm gun is rifled rather than smoothbore. Only the 120mm guns used by NATO are smoothmore. However, I did read from Janes that the German (Rheinmetall GmbH) has recently developed smoothbore 105mm gun. I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about.

Rumors said that it incoporates a reversed Bionix chassis(engine at the back). The turret is rumored to be technologically transferred from GIAT, makers of the AMX-13s and AMX-10s that SAF have.

Most likely one of the French AMX-10RC turret . Can't think of any other turret that the French has produced. The AMX-30 turret will be way too big for a small tank the ST is building.

Personally, I rather ST choose the FMC turret or the M8 AGS turret. They use proven autoloader technology and can incorporate a commander's independent thermal TV (CITV) for hunter-killer mode. That's what I'll call a force multipler.

Like Bionix, the tank will have external mounted add-on armours with internal steel hull. (said to be comparable to the M2 bradley's armor)

I am not all suprised that the Bionix chassis is being used as the base of the new tank design. Afterall, it make sense from the logistic point of view. Same chassis share common share parts, including the wheels, tracks, suspensions, gears, engine etc. But darn, I still like the M8 most.

Another thing I wish the SAF would consider is to replace the Centurions with something better such as Leopard 1A5. SAF will have no problem in sourcing ex-Nethelands or ex-German tanks and simply recondition them. the A5 version has got the Leo2 FCS which make them one of the most accurate tank around regardless when they are firing while stationary or moving. The Germans sure know how to built good tanks. I think the Leo1A5 tanks will give the Malaysian T-84 a run of their money. Since T-84 is theoretically a T-72 modified.

ST-kinetics already have a few surprises in development. Dun be surprised to see a light-weight AGL marriage to SAR-21 to replace M203s in the near future (similar to the in-development OICW rifle by the US army)

mouth zipped

Well, I think ST-Kinetics (CIS) will have quite a fair bit of challenge to marry SAR-21 with AGL if your account is correct. SAR-21 can carry a modified version of M203. Why need to bring in AGL? The ammo themselves will "kill" the person who is carrying it. Doesn't make sense. OICW has a 20mm genade launcher instead of the 40mm. Furthermore, they are more like the pump-action shot gun/grenade launcher, somewhat like the one depicted in the movie Aliens.

Shotgun SG

OICW is a magazine load. 6 20mms per mag i believe.

Silenthunter SG

hmm....OK....to clear up...the AGL marriage thing is just an example that ST-kinetic having surprises....not a real fact Very Happy ......sorrie I created the misunderstanding

Leopard?? I think leopard too big for local terrain liao so not feasible. Biggest doesn't mean better. Look at the Merkava tank...big thick armor and powerful...but slow and sitting ducks to enemy fire

Even the T-84 is too big for the terrain I personally think the Malaysia throw away it's money on that tank. BTW it's said to be a 155mm smoothbore......tank rounds for 155mm so big meh?

The 105mm smoothbore thingy....I also not very leh..and the rumors fly around already make me blur.

Actually now Armor is not the main force of the army right? I think Infantry still rules due to the rapid advancement of AT weapons and mobility in local terrian....only than speed is slow.....tanks are just "metal coffins"

Viper52 SG

To be honest why would countries in this region need such big tanks? Other than in Northern M'sia upwards there is no suitable tank country in the Peninsula as its either mountainous, jungles(sometimes both!) or cities. The first 2 perclude the use of all but light tanks (as the British and japanese found out in 1941) while the case against armour in FIBUA has been settled several times in history(Stalingrad, Arnhem, Khafji and Grozny et al).

Besides, are the bridges in some of the more remote areas certified to take a 70 ton behemoth like the Abrams?(as someone was suggesting). This is not Western Europe, where countries like Germany have engineer certified bridges which can take M1s or Leopard 2A5s trundling across for hours without danger of collapse. Very little use for a Abrams thats half sunk into a river on top of a collapsed bridge, I'm sure you'd agree.

A light-medium tank, with displacement at most in the 30-35 ton bracket, sufficiently armed with a main gun in the 105mm class, would be more than sufficient to meet our needs

Joe Black SG

But there are current no modern tanks built to that class 30-35 tons. The lightest would be the French AMX-30, but even that it is considered outdated. I thought Leopard 1A5 with a 46ton would come close. Otherwise, we can start looking at up-armoured Stingray/M8 class tanks.

Anyway, a Bionix chassis and a foreign turret would probably be just under 30 tons unless ST intends to add a lot more armour to the front and side of the chassis and onto the turret.

Viper52 SG

Ahhh...but who said we'll need to look overseas for our next tank? Rumours have already abound, as mentioned here that SAF's next tank is a homegrown product, and I believe that the ST Pavilion at AA2002 will give us an idea of whats to come.

Speaking of which, who's going to AA2002?

YourFather SG

I’ll most probably be going. Too bad i got no scanner, otherwise can post some pics to share with u guys…. you think this year would be good? the SU-35 isn’t coming, so I guess no Pugachev’s Cobra to see….

Viper52 SG

Aiyah mai hiam beh pai lah...theres still the Bone and Super Hornet in the flying display, although I've seen both types do their show routines before(I've seen the Bone do its airshow routine twice!!)...

Better bring earplugs guys...its gonna be loud!

Shotgun SG

I doubt the government is considering for local usage alone. I have a feeling Singapore is gonna be commiting more forces to UN peace keeping missions. And with the formation of the new ADF might draw up some new requirements.

Personally, I feel that there are situations where Main Battle Tanks will come in useful. To say that they are totally limited by the terrain will be rather myopic. One must admit, different technique and training is required to take out Main Battle Tanks, simply because their skin is thicker. MBTs are also useful as assault guns when assaulting Urban areas.

Joe Black SG

ADF? What's that?

Personally, I feel that there are situations where Main Battle Tanks will come in useful. To say that they are totally limited by the terrain will be rather myopic. One must admit, different technique and training is required to take out Main Battle Tanks, simply because their skin is thicker. MBTs are also useful as assault guns when assaulting Urban areas.

The Israeli used their tanks to maximum effect when they fought the Lebanon war against Syrians. The tank vs tank warfare was actually conducted in urban area.

Viper52 SG

The tank v tank battles were actually fought AWAY from urban areas. When the IDF tried to use its tanks in urban areas to support its ground troops it took heavy casualties from "suitcase ATGMs" and RPGs

Silenthunter SG

I forget wat ADF means....either Army Deployment Force, Advance Deployment Force, or some others but basically These company size force is SAF's experimental force when they will be the first to use the latest technologies for trial.

Basically they are the geniue pigs of SAF in aqquiring weapons and equipments.

Heard that the ADF partial Armor and partial Guards trained.

Anyway, if you are in NS or active Reservist, you meet them often cause they are the "enemy" in training replacing the old aggressor company. They are the new "aggressors".

If I din remember wrongly, Pioneer Magazine reported a few months back that the current batch had just gone operational.

RAIDER SG

Ya, me too. The French Grandfather have been around for too long.Even with the improvements that ST made, i still think their time is up...

RAIDER SG

I think if i remembered correctly,ADF actually means ARMY DEVELOPEMENT FORCE cos they held a recruitment drive in my camp around late 2000.Quite a few dozen from my camp signed on.They are made up mainly from infantry n guardsmen from various units signing on a 4yr contract. The first batch which made up 1 coy size is situated at Bedok Camp 2,same as the 3rd GUARDS.

The second coy is at Changi n the 3rd ??? I personally think that they r geniue pigs of the SAF trying out new doctrines n equipments that of the SAF. Maybe there is a bigger hidden agenda?!? SAF can only send regulars as peace keeping forces abroard. Maybe thats y the ADF is being setup...As ADF is the first unit in SAF where u can sign not only as a spec or officer,but as a man, it make sense that SAF is setting up this ADF thing to make up a unit purely of regulars so that it can send them to some tension hotspots in the world as peace keepers where no NSF in the right of mind would want to go...

Shotgun SG

Actually, the ADF to me means, Active Deployment fuckers. Hehehe. Basically, these soldiers are all regulars, and can be actively deployed for all sorts of rubbish, from peacekeeping missions to relief efforts and of course, combat. Basically, they will be the proffessional soldiers mindef can afford to send away and take casualties. Singapore usually don’t send any armed peacekeeping units other than medics. They are afraid to answer to parents and relatives should any of them KIA outside Singapore, in other people’s business. A regular/proffessional soldier force, will take away this “guilt” or “responsibility”, cos this will be after all, their job. =) I heard this ADF won’t only consist of guardsmen and infantry, but even armor and CDO units.