LTA calls tender for mock-ups for Concept Bus

last SG · 2015-05-06T01:07:53+00:00

Those who registered with GeBiz, will keep to themselves... And yes - articulated buses will die out. It didn't really matter how many years it took for prop...

sgbuses SG

@sgbuses

Not sure if this is useful,

a few weeks ago, I went onto Ask.fm and asked my friends (around 18/19 yrs old) this question.

Q: In terms of transportion, do you want speed or comfort.

Many of them say they want both speed and comfort.

Some say speed.

Some say it depends on the distance. If short distance, speed. If long distance, comfort.

In short, we know what we want. Tbh, regarding transport, we just want to get from point A to point B in the best possible way.

Well, you know, "best" can mean many things, depending on each point of view. #justsaying

but really, I do not think we really care what kind of bus is used. so long as we can board and can go to where we want, can already.

but still, it really feels good to say that "I am so poor. I can only take Mercedes to school."　:)

#justsaying #conceptbus #tender #prototype

The only main difference between Singapore and other cities is that Singapore has much larger population of captive audiences taking public transport, by virtue of COE.

In academia, most experts will advise transport planners that the needs of captive audiences is to be ignored and the focus should be on incentivizing car owners to switch to public transport. Clearly, that is not happening in Singapore for reasons already mentioned.

That is why, and this is especially true for bus lobbyists, if passengers are stuck with a choice (taking the bus) then they will do whatever they can to make the conditions of that choice better for themselves.

JurongWestresident SG

PT236 Concept Bus Mock-up

Calling for: One single deck or double deck Concept Bus mock-up or both

Closing date: 3 June 2015

Delivery date: 17 September 2015

Source: http://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/tender/

Opinon

1. Should be related to procurement of buses for current and future GCMs. Tender explicitly stated that the supplier must be an experienced bus manufacturer.

2. No articulated bus indicated as part of tender - no articulated buses to be procured in future?

3. "Concept bus" may suggest a brand new bus design for Singapore's operating environment, possibly along the lines of how NBfL and NTfL are developed in London.

I am sorry, but can I just say that maybe the people who have access to the information share the information here, if allowed?

Most of us here do not know, that's why tend to write off topic. #justsaying

sgbuses SG

I am sorry, but can I just say that maybe the people who have access to the information share the information here, if allowed?

Most of us here do not know, that's why tend to write off topic. #justsaying

I do not have access to the information. I was just making an educated guess from what is publicly available.

I discourage anyone else with this information to make it public.

I expect a bit of speculation and that is perfectly fine, but not the extent of being so far off course (such as lobbying for bendy buses when its clearly ruled out).

SBS2601D SG

I have heard about the bad name that these people give, especially when they give endless "feedback" about these that. A lot of them contain a huge dose of self-righteousness and a number are rude.

Spare a thought for the poor fellows who have to entertain you at LTA.

It's not as though they have too little work especially now.

SMB145B SG

Non-compliant bids are not funny.

Imagine you are the project manager and you managed to smoke your bosses and really put a bendy up as proposal, which is eventually ruled as non-compliant by the Authority.

Are you prepared to face the music from your boss?

If not, then you have zilch credibility and I have no qualms in being that slightly more rude.

listen, i only follow what given to me by my boss. if he says no and i insist, then it is fair that i get the punishment.

Rachelle7451 SG

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SBS351M SG

PT236 Concept Bus Mock-up

Calling for: One single deck or double deck Concept Bus mock-up or both

Closing date: 3 June 2015

Delivery date: 17 September 2015

Source: http://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/tender/

See highlighted. Simi London simi NBFL so cheem.

I see mock-up = not real bus.

You mean everyday mock-up buses come and pick us up?

I see no reason why the Authority wants to try new things without commiting themselves to something more serious like a demonstrator (who in the Authority will drive the bus?).

I would be very curious to see what creative designs the bidders will give, without thinking about simi lift in bus la, horse-powered bus la.

Here is the BIGGEST issue of it all, what this means is that LTA has the upper hand in playing manufacturers out. Imagine if LTA awarded this contract to manufacturer A, feels happy about the mockup, then puts the good aspects in the specs of a subsequent tender for buses, and awards it to manufacturer B who has bidded lower than A in the contract. I highly doubt there is any contractual commitment to purchase buses out of this contract. As a manufacturer, congratulations, you've been played out by a government agency who may be a bastard but you can't do anything about it but to try harder next time round, even though it was your ideas and your blood and sweat.

Point to note that the NBFL design competition's entrys were designed by design firms, ie there was no bus manufacturer involved (LTA's one stated they have to be experienced bus manufacturers), bus manufacturers were only called in after the winning concept was decided to provide the engineering design and manufacture of the buses.

SBS351M SG

I personally like the quality of the buses manufactured by a certain Northern Irish bus manufacturer, and its buses have a unique design, and they are known to be very creative in their designs. What if they submitted a bid in this concept, and another tender for purchase of buses comes out with the ideas from the Irish in the spec but the Scottish or even the Chinese get the contract? Is it fair for the Irish?

JurongWestresident SG

Hi. I would like to know, actually what is the purpose of creating this thread? Is it to lecture the commoners/General Public?

After all, this is only a public discussions page. We are only here to chit-chat, right? If so, we do not need to know private and confidential information.

We just need some press releases, news articles, publications and any other infomation in the public domain, to talk talk talk all we want.

#justsaying

wsy1234 SG

i think still a BRT system combine with MRT will be the best for the public. and for those road that never big enough for BRT or MRT to be build on, a fleet of normal public buses could provide the link. in short if LTA want people to give up driving cars it is impossible, but at least some kind of interconnection between journey and on time transport service is possible. not point asking contractor to come whatever bus concept for the public. LRT system is a not a every good system compare to BRT.

SexyMichael SG

winning designs do not translate into winning production contracts - there is a significant difference between design capability and production capability, and you seem to be assuming:
1) LTA should award the production contract to the company that designed it (goes against tender rules!)
2) the bidders for the design contract can BOTH design well and produce cheaply (how true??)

there is NO play-out involved because, by virtue of the contract, LTA has to renumerate the bidder with the best possible design, and expect LTA to purchase the winning design (IP rights, TDPs and the related) at the conclusion of the contract. once that is done, the design does not belong to the company that designed it, but instead belongs to LTA.

when LTA decides, further down the road, to issue a manufacturing contract, there is no sell-out because LTA is merely having people tender to build their design, yes LTA's design. it can be argued that LTA's design is a defacto design from a bus company, but the design, legally, still belongs to LTA.

sgbuses SG

Hi. I would like to know, actually what is the purpose of creating this thread? Is it to lecture the commoners/General Public?

After all, this is only a public discussions page. We are only here to chit-chat, right? If so, we do not need to know private and confidential information.

We just need some press releases, news articles, publications and any other infomation in the public domain, to talk talk talk all we want.

#justsaying

There is no confidential information involved. A simple search over GeBiz (with the word "bus") will yield information on the tender eligibility which anyone can view.

Pasting the direct URL didn't work on this forum. It resulted in a broken link. Sometimes even pasting URLs of LTA press releases does not work. It is frustrating, but you will have look it up manually. But the tender eligibility information is available and online to anyone.

A lot of these "feedback" (I call it lobbying) has spilled over to the mainstream media over the past five years.

All you needed to do is to Google for it. It is all over the public domain in the last five years.

SexyMichael SG

Hi. I would like to know, actually what is the purpose of creating this thread? Is it to lecture the commoners/General Public?

After all, this is only a public discussions page. We are only here to chit-chat, right? If so, we do not need to know private and confidential information.

We just need some press releases, news articles, publications and any other infomation in the public domain, to talk talk talk all we want.

#justsaying

its tragic the pen, or rather the internet, does not discriminate between the informed and the un-informed. often enough, its the un-informed who resort to persuasion above their weight to effect changes that are often detrimental to the system.

kid, you underestimate the power of the media. If you havent been reading your Social Studies textbooks properly, re-read them and also singapore's history. how did LKY influence the masses against British Colonial rule, and eventually against the Barisan Socialis?

Edit - to better put this whole issue of 'forum public discussions are harmless' into context, remember rumours of the B10M Mk5 many years back? How did Volvo respond to such suggestions of a Mk5 B10M then?

sgbuses SG

Alternatively, it is possible to argue the other way round.

If I were a manufacturer and I wanted to keep other manufacturers out for the next round, I would propose a mock-up with technologies that other manufactures find it difficult or are unable to replicate (e.g. steel structure or cutting edge aluminum structure design). That will put many of my competitors out of the game for the next round.

That is why this looks like Masterchef if you have watched episodes of it, "whoever wins this challenge will gain a significant advantage in the next round". The winner of the first challenge will usually pick ingredients/choices for their competitors for the elimination round that put them in an very vulnerable position.

sgbuses SG

Generally, a rail system is preferred to a BRT if it exists.

I have seen at least one major urban city tear down BRT facilities to substitute it for a metro system. Taichung is tearing down theirs in a few months.

The main benefits of a BRT system is its flexibility and shorter period of construction.

iveco SG

I hope Scania has the winning formula that nobody (not even fellow VW company MAN) possesses. If Hino does win I'd say it's a huge step up for them. But the biggest surprise would be Sino-Australian BCI group.

SBS351M SG

Here is the thing, bus manufacturers don't earn money by coming out with concepts and selling IPs to authorities, design firms, like those in NBFL design competition, can as that is what they do for a living, but in the NBFL the design firms didn't had to care about the engineering design and TFL wasn't looking for experienced bus manufactuers during this phase. When the TFL wanted the buses to be built (ie the next phase), they required the bus manufacturers to come out with the engineering design, in return for building the buses.

A bus manufacturer on the other hand, has to manufacture buses to make money. Selling IPs to authorities and letting them use it while not getting any actual deals is simply unfair to the bus manufacturers, especially when they no longer hold legal rights to what they have created.

Its like creating a whole new bus, just that there is a chance that you can't get the business. Manufacturers (not just bus manufacturers) usually recoup their design costs only after a certain X amount of units produced, either the costs they are tendering has to be so high that they recoup the whole design cost (that it makes more sense for the authority to buy a lot of buses using the money instead) or they can choose to bid lower and hope that the authorities award a future bus tender to them.

This is why I would rather they skip this whole concept bus bullshit, and evaluate bus manufacturers when they actually need the buses.

SBS351M SG

Alternatively, it is possible to argue the other way round.

One thing is, bus manufacturing (in terms of body as this contract looks like its focusing more on the body) doesn't really involve much precision engineering. A lot of stuffs regarding buses are very easy to replicate, the Chinese are very good at doing such replicating, why do you think you see a lot of Chinese at European bus shows snooping at booths other than their own when most buses in China are domestically made? This is why bus manufacturers turn to patents, but if you sell your design to LTA, then the patents will be owned by LTA, wouldn't you as a manufacturer lose out then as there isn't any contractual agreement to buy your buses?

wsy1234 SG

Generally, a rail system is preferred to a BRT if it exists.

I have seen at least one major urban city tear down BRT facilities to substitute it for a metro system. Taichung is tearing down theirs in a few months.

The main benefits of a BRT system is its flexibility and shorter period of construction.

singapore cannot compare to a taiwan city and also the taichung brt system idea is a rush into it idea as the former city mayor try to bulid it to win vote and it poorly plan. for us if LTA can think different like appple and plan the system well it could be very useful. as you said BRT system is its flexibility and shorter period of construction. combine with MRT system could be one of the best transport network here.

sgbuses SG

Based on LTA's experience with rolling stock procurements, I do not think LTA did or will buy patents or any other intellectual property.

If there is a risk of intellectual property of one manufactuer stolen by another, then the outcome is already obvious. The tender will close either with no prospective bidders (forcing LTA to redesign the tender), or only the Chinese manufactuers will bid.

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