CAD officially investigates NTI and EGA

bangkokboy SG

By the way guys, MLM companies can last longer than Ponzi Schemes because they do not make the promises of 100% capital return + interest.

Ponzi Schemes normally collapses after 3-5 years when it gets really complicated. Most of the times, the signs to watch out for are rapidly diminishing returns for new investors.

the_fallen SG

don't say until like you purposely let others win.

many times, i've went down to the company, and met up with many other people from the net who went down and ask their questions, only to see the helpless reaction on the distributors face.

than their reaction - dunno how to answer nor do they ask their 'uplines' to answer.

don't give us the crap.

laurence82 SG

If dont want to get into shit, dont even start

Anyone who comes in and boast about anything, must expect to be challenged

Nobody gonna sit around and think whatever you said is true

And please dont act like a small child demanding to be obeyed and listened to

Rolling Eyes

the_fallen SG

than what if the mlm is being used to masked/cover-up ponzi scheme on the surface?

Razorsharp SG

I see no point in this thread. Everything anyone from SE says turn to dust.

I agree the fact that aunties and uncles are being brought in questionable, and god knows how long the company will last. But on the other side of it, there are indeed services being launched by the company, and it is developing. I think the company still has some time before its success its judged.

The EMCOM wireless project is estimated to launch by Jan 08, and the EMCALL service to launch officially in 1-2 months' time. Maybe you guys can come back and declare it a failure after the poor response from the market.

laurence82 SG

That was what was said 3 years ago, and some even claim sunshine empire exited for 28 years

and we still waiting

and read the list of failed schemes posted by Telescope

Rolling Eyes

the_fallen SG

Just a word of Advice.

To stand in and Gain the most advantage out of this service and pay less for it's service, look at it from customers' point of view.

Let the 'new' telecom company (they are just Service Provider & Not a Real Service Operator ; that's what I know based on what I heard, correct me if I'm wrong on this part) fight it out against the 3 main companies, than while they battle it out, fight for the lowest price, than we judge which provides better services at much lower cost.

Example: When Vista was launch, some people bought it immediately, while others wait.

In this situation; it's better to wait for all the Singapore to increase the computer compatability to a common system before we can really enjoy the benefits of Vista, thus to date, not all systems encourage Vista yet, even Thumb Drive doesn't support Vista.

Back to the topic:

We as consumers have to be street smart, know when to wait and when to go for the kill.

When it's time to go for the kill, meaning to say there's a annual Year End Sales or something similar, this type we can go.

But for this normal service, we need to take a Wait and See Approach.

Better Recent Example:

MobTv: when it first launch, the price per month was $10++, subquently after a few months it dropped to $9++, now, the price is at $8++ after a few more months.

Thus we need to be smart and not to listen to what the sales agents (in the case of Emcal- Sales Distributors) tell us, coz their objective is only to sell, and EARN COMMISSION, after which they will not care what happens next.

Every month/week, Straits Time will have a small section on the most common complaints when it comes to Sales Line.

Read it and be smarter as a consumer.

i_am_back SG

Aiyo.....Christopher.......comon la.......be mature la. Who are you to come to this forum and explain so many bullshit? don't you understand until now? Who do you think is the moderator? Fireice or Laurence82?

So if you dun wan to be banned from here....make sure you speak their language.....your...under...stand?

HAHAHA......

Procter SG

To set the record straight, Sunshine Empire did not exist for 28 years. It was registered last year in which they changed name from a previous Niutrend International. More likely the 28 years statistic is the length of time JP spent engaging in business and/or MLM.

This is the problem, when a network marketing company starts to expand, there is always an issue with distributors giving varied accounts of their company's plans and even products. It has been, and most likely will stay as a questionable issue in the industry for practically every MLM company unless a perfect training system can emerge.

That, however, does not necessarily indicate whether a company is doing well or not. I agree with you that a company can never fully dictate and explain its own actions to its consumers and the whole world; i have done research as homework for a project on another company called Enron (if you're educated enough, you'll know which company i'm talking about). A third party is absolutely necessary. I don't pretend to understand why SE never joined DSAS, all i can offer is the fact that i have witnessed (both personal and third party) the failure of a few projects (namely China Dream, Club Empire and Magic Kingdom), and from what i see between them and the current Emcom/Emcall/Empire Property Venture projects, i can say that at least ongoing progress is being much more visible than before including the launching of products like Emcall. In previous projects, everyone had to wait eons for the eventual news of failure.

True, there may be too many past projects which suggest that there may have been a major problem with the network in the past, but just what if, what if the current one is different and just might work out?

So for those (not laurence) who view it with more than the usual skepticism, just wait and see if ur words bear fruit instead of constantly mouthing doomsayer prophecies.

Anyway, this forum is likely to stay in ad hominem stasis because except for the odd interest, very few distributors from SE who are earning big bucks, getting their income taxes and cars will be bothered to come down and put in their two cents' worth. Most will likely be new, enthusiastic and probably not fully-trained people (pardon my unintended slight) who just happened to hunker down onto this forum. And in which, they'll most likely respond to the slightest insult towards their company more with their emotions and less with universal reason.

Apologies if what i have mentioned is flawed in any way (and i expect it to be since i haven't engaged in forum discourse for some time), but at no time do i present intentional falsehood or evasion of facts. Do ask me more questions on anything about the company and i'll try my best to answer them with my limited know-how. Thanks for the time everyone =D

p.s. Laurence, u do offer good food for thought at times!

p.p.s Emcall is already out on the market, for those who are unaware. It was launched on the 5th June.

laurence82 SG

Yeap, i agree, people who are not legally recognised as agents, representative or employees should not be representing the company or even answering questions. Its not their duty to do so, as they can get away with saying even the most ludicrous stuff.

As for keeping hope, this been said many times everytime there is a new project (note the damn high turnover of projects). So issit doomsayers prophecies, or is it people no longer bothered to be conned to keep hope?

As for ad hominem arguments, even forumers who came in with neutrality or has no interest in this subject has noted how agents are ruining the image of the companies with tireless ranting, whining and flaming, and which subsequently lead to banning, and more ranting whining and flaming.

If the company cannot get control and cease this behaviour on the significant scale, there is no point telling people numerous times that these are rookies. This is the business world, ie, who cares? In the real world, rookies like these are fired immediately.

This is not a school where people are given chances and be allowed to justify themselves. Which is what i said, get away from the pseudo business world James Phang been putting you guys in. Go to the real business world with these ridiculous ideas and prepared to be pwned, as they say.

i_am_back SG

i am back
and i am banned

Procter SG

In that case, other than the fictional 'perfect training system' that i mentioned beforehand, would u happen to have a solution to this issue? The very core activity in network marketing happens to be spreading of the company's profile mouth-to-mouth (relatively) informally, not by professional advertising, corporate appointments and such. The government itself recognises and does not dispute the existance and legality of MLM, but due to the long standing war between consumers/unhappy distributors vs the way they handle their operations, even the head honchos of the country did not deign to comment on the development of this industry.

Personally, i would love it if a method was found to regulate how much an agent can say and represent. It would solve many issues on both sides, yes?

What you're referring to is disillusion. Granted that negative reaction to a new project after a string of failures is not unexpected, but does that mean that no quarter for consideration should be given to a new one if it does start to adhere to promises and is moving in a different direction from the past? Critics should respond in a rational enough manner that would make pple feel that their stand is justified, rather than to make strongly suggestive statements that i find not much basis on. Again, i refer to a few individuals. Sorry about that.

Similiarly, on the other side of the gulf, there are also forumers who thrive on targeting agents with lack of any tact and shoot off the barrel without bothering to think about what they're saying. As i said before, no offense meant, but the agents you see here are most likely the bottom-of-the-barrel, too used to spending time picking nits on the net rather than spending useful time outside consolidating their knowledge and expanding their network. I dare say even that the company itself may not approve of some of the material mentioned in the threads, just that it has not taken any action.

However i can assure you, such behaviour is much less apparent in the company. It might seem significant in the forum, but forum is out of company bounds and not within its direct jurisdiction. Unless a discussion in this forum directly threatens company interests, of course.

I have heard a quote from one of the better respected individuals in the company, saying that most of the people in SE, no matter how much they earn in the company, will earn less than peanuts if we're all thrown into the real business world. This is something I, and many other agents are painfully aware of. 95% of the agents are learning sales skills (and some rather not efficiently due to the size of the company), not business management. So if you wish to use the analogy of a corporate business on SE, you're right, a pwning session will be in progress.

That is why in the strictest sense, no one should consider this a traditional business. Because in a lot of aspects it does not behave like one. Therefore, if anyone has the intention to come into the company, spend a year or two and expect to go out into the business world as a corporate guru, i would encourage everyone here to get him/her to wake up his/her idea.

All the issues that have been raised here, i'm sure CASE, MOM and even CAD are already aware of. Its the murky transistion from traditional business models to new ones that's making everyone scratch their heads and wonder what to do as the masses smell foul play and cry murder, for justifiable and unjustifiable reasons.

Guide me back if i drift from the point. I tend to digress. ^^

laurence82 SG

Need to be perfect? Thats why i said 'on the significant scale'. Why some companies distributors are significantly rambunctious while other companies are relatively profesisonal or do not have that significant number of people who distort the company image?

Solution? Many. One clue is the profile of the distributors, mainly youngsters with raging hormones. Another is the top down infuence. Strangely, the more established companies (Amway, Elken, Herbalife, Nuskin etc) do not have these two problems or issues. There could be others, but at end of the day, management's problem to resolve.

In what way its not justified? i believe the fallen and other has provided a lot of justifications from day one, so you could start along with these. Otherwise, not much to keep hope on, given the 'exchange of information' that has passed in this forum.

The number of forumers from the opposite who flame rather than debate are rather low. If anyone feel they are flaming, can feel free to message the moderators. But as the recent weeks shown, a lot of banning on so called SE agents.

And who cares whether or not the company approve of any sort of behaviour? If the harm has been done, you can tell the public 1001 times but to what effect? Like i said, this is business we are talking about, not civil rights group or schools. You done the damage, go solve the problems and face the consequences, not stand around tryng to justify. Again, its a cold harsh world out there. These people can be bottom of the barrel, these people can be clones or some other trolls, but again, damage been done. If the company is doing nothing to arrest the situation, what is the point of going over and over again that these people are insignificant few? Its like saying sorry but doing nothing, people seen the ugliness, and you couldnt just expect anyone to come along and say 'hey its ok' that simply

I didnt know flaming skill is a type of sales skill? Besides, what sort of sales skill people are learning if they market an investment scheme but chose to evade the duty of proving their income? Is this a business management skill? I dont see the difference. if they cannot show how they understand how business work, it will be a blight on the sales skill. Its like a banking sales officer marketing various treasury products but could not understand how these products relate to business operations.

In fact, which of these stuff i mentioned during the rounds of debates can ever be so cleanly classified as 'biz management'? What is the point of using 'corporate business'? How come that got into the discussion, its like out of mid air. Same for the talk about traditional business?

Do you mean to say, for example, MLMers can evade tax because its no longer the tradtional business? Can MLMers be less professional because its no longer the traditional business? These are the issues that have been discussed all along and i didnt noe because its a new type of business, these ideas can be discarded.

Lastly, being aware is nothing. Rather, i would say apathetic, maybe until something big crops up, like the Ponzi scheme way back then.

Procter SG

Correct, distributor profile is an important indicator as to the manner in which information is distributed to the public.. It depends on the makeup of the company in the first place. Certain companies, strangely, attract youngsters more and others attract older and more mature individuals, just like your Amway and Herbalife. And I'll have to agree that companies whose demographics are younger, tend to be experiencing more problems with portraying company image. SE is not the only one with this issue, others with hot-blooded youths include Venture Era and Enyouth.

That's why the supposedly 'more-established' companies are able to handle themselves better. SE's management has tried to tackle this with the introduction of the minimum age (1 Cool rule (probably in accordance to official working regulations), but what i was enquiring here was a more efficient way of handling overenthusiastic young people. Top down influence might work under controlled situations where everybody down the line has the minimum maturity to adhere to the right things, but not when there's a sprawling network spread everywhere with an enticing product that does not require that much of a distributor's efforts to close the average layman as other products such as aromatherapy and magnetic mattresses. Not easy to try to be an omnipotent CEO, u know.

the_fallen and other both have done their homework, i was referring to others who tend to brush away facts and press their point without any thought. But if they are becoming a minority, then all the better for it.

Exchange of information in this forum is a very interesting topic you know. Since this place is not an official representation of SE, you have to always take what you see here with a very heavy pinch of salt. The only real info as to what the company is portraying is what comes from its official talks and seminars. Therefore inference from this place should never be taken seriously unless quoted by a reliable or official source. Even than, that is subject to scrutiny as it may be outdated.

I applaud too the banning of SE agents who don't think before they post. If i appear to be one too, feel free to ban me too, fireice ma'am ^^

Damage is done everywhere you know. Even my grandpa hurls constant abuse at EPL when among his friends (due to losing bets) and there's no end of criticism at practically every company that exists. There's a good and bad side to everything. But laurence, if anti-laurence clubs sprang up in a dozen forums, would you go and try explaining yourself to all of them, or would you simply stick to what you know is right and let everything clear up when enough evidence them being mistaken emerges? SE knows it has a string of past failures to answer up for, and therefore is spending its resources to keep expanding its profile instead of snapping back. Proof in eventual action, eventual because nothing can be proven overnight. You have to give them some time. Just like this project is relatively new, the company also has to research and spend time to develop ways to try and curb the wanton behaviour of some of its more dubious members while making sure the project is not going to collaspe this time. Yes its a cold harsh world, but no one said it was going to be an easy ride in the first place.

By the way, even if the company was doing something to arrest the situation, there's always the possibility that forumers here are not aware about it because of the "exchange of information" here, or rather the lack of it.

I never said flaming was a sales skill. Flaming comes from the lack of control of emotions and rational thought, which everyone is capable of.

And for hopefully the last time, there is no investment scheme in SE. If there was, MAS would have come down on the management's throats by now. If anyone wants a clarification of this, feel free to pm me.

From your inference, I can conclude that there are many, many people who have 'blighted' sales skills because there are too many uneducated salespeople in many, many industries without proper training. I, for one, will not hesitate to prove my income when my income tax comes out in Oct (this is my first year filing tax). Unless there's a horde of people baying for my unaudited preliminary statement of tax right now, of course. ^^

And my fellow networkers whom have earned significant income have all filed our taxes too. You should have seen those of us new to it scramble on Apr 15 only to find out that it had been extended for e-filing.

The so called phrases out of mid air, namely 'corporate biz' and 'traditional biz'
were mentioned because of your previous statement that all of those involved in this 'pseudo business world' would be pwned if all of us were displaced into a fully corporate setting. Hence my statement that no one here can claim that they are a businessman in a meaningful way. i'm not trying to discard any ideas here unless it is so by my lack of perception.

Basically i'm still a relative newbie in this industry so i may not be your equal in dissecting facts and analysing them but i hope that my efforts in doing so do not degrade the quality of this discussion too much. Thanks for understanding!

p.s quite horrified at how long the post was after previewing.. ><

laurence82 SG

so at the end..what? the company's solution is? again, you are harping on an omnipotent and perfect system, but my posts say 'on the significant scale', please stick to the point...at the end of the day, after saying all this, then what? if there are a few who can do the damage, lets say, on this forum alone, then what? no matter how much you harp on omnipotent CEO and perfect training system, someone, or rather, now a bunch of people doing the damage, now what?

you can tell me how established companies are able to better manage because they have older crowd, my issue is, what is the use of telling me this? i am more interested in, now that SE has the youngsters crowd, what its doing, since you said the company has realised it has this situation? has it been effective? i siggested top down solution, but it may not be THE solution like i said that there could be other solutions, so you tell me, what is the company's solution to this? pls answer to the issues, not making statements which is parallel to these points but not answering the questions. and clearly whatever the company is doing has failed, does anyone recognise this, instead of giving me philosphical theoretical answers like how the CEO cannot manage because he is not omnipotent etc? i think to outsiders, they are not interested in the internal controls or dispute or mismanagement, what they would like to see is the answers, the solutions, and the results most of all

after reading through this part, i am still aghast, damage is done, you realise that, then what? you talk about not being able to explain everything away...then why are you here doing what you said that was not perfectly possible? again, my point was, damage is done, what is the company doing? i mean, the rest of your points doesnt make sense, things like, i have to give them some time, give the company time...does this work in the real world? damage is done, and you are telling people to back off, be nice and so on? huh?

again, solutions, results, solutions..not what if the company has done, what the company may have done, what could possibly not be disseminated to the public

this is clear bullcrap, any mlm scheme is a hybrid investment scheme, since you have to input your own resources to gain something, whether its frontloading, investing in promotion tools or simply registering to begin your own business

The wireless project is clearly a CAPITAL investment, any textbook can tell you this, since its 100% a monetary investment to fund a project, gaining dividends in return

anything else is bullcrap, and need not bring MAS in this warped context, MAS even has a list of schemes its alerting but not even intervene or so called come down on management throats, so does it mean all these are ok investment schemes?

btw, go back a few pages where someone posted a link where Malaysian Security Commission has identified SE as a company with unlicensed investment schemes

laurence82 SG

if anyone is to come to sgforums and boast their income, or most importantly their uplines income, it follows that they must be ready to

a) prove it online,

b) prove the whole company distributors have been benefitting significantly from this scheme for a long term period

not any short get rick quick scheme, not a scheme where top earns and bottom earn pitiful amount in comparison, not anything else, but a scheme where the large part of the distributors earn in the long term

again, corporate setting do not mean 'businessman' or 'entrepenurship' alone (since when i mention such definition anyway), again, please do not evade the issue by narrowing it down to businessman

this was the issue posted earlier

christopher_rf SG

who stated that rule.. erm.. you?

so i believe if anyone is to come to sgforums and declare a company illegal or most importantly that it is a scam, it follows that they must be ready to

a) prove it online,

b) prove the whole company distributors have been cheated and not benifitting.

is a short get rick quick scheme, a scheme where top earns and bottom earn pitiful amount in comparison, not anything else,
again, corporate setting do not mean 'businessman' or 'entrepenurship' alone (since when i mention such definition anyway), again, please do not evade the issue by narrowing it down to businessman

this was the issue posted earlier

I'm lazy to edit all you know wha ti mean...

laurence82 SG

again, like i said, dont believe me, go and do that in the real world

for eg. join an investment company, market a fund and tell people you dont have the duty to prove whether the fund is capable of generating returns

go tell other MLMers you dont have to prove your income

tell people the law regarding median, mean, mode income is fake

told you many times, boast something and trying to market something you have an interest in, prove it

this is basic logic, i cant believe i am explaining this to people who say they are learning sales skills

Rolling Eyes

mhcampboy SG

Can I join SE? Surprised

Herzog_Zwei SG

Why do you think sgforumers call him the channel banana?

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