NTI-PARIS

last SG · 2004-12-29T19:51:08+00:00

how do u know their management earn less than kfc?

decantre SG

I asked my friend. The last payout he had was in the beginning of May. I don't know what you were trying to imply? And perhaps calling the NTI office to check with Ms 'Clarise' and Ms Ivy would be better instead of asking them here. Unless they read sgforums on a regular basis, checking for customer complaints. Smile

Hey, hi. I guess I'm not going to be welcomed here, seeing as how this thread is strongly anti-NTI and I'm an agent in it. And you know, why bother to step into a place when people dislike the likes of people like me? But I have some stuff to share, actually, and yes I set up an account just to post this.

(no, don't get me wrong. i don't have time to surf forums one. im after all, busy doing my NTI stuff and trying to 'bring up nti'. but i do occasionally find time to surf the net, check email, check websites and even more rarely, breath.)

One year back, in March 2005 I was asked by my colleague in Takashimaya to join this company in Raffles Place.

When I was making my decision I decide to go online and search, and sgforums came up. And I read this other thread about NTI (the one where they misspelt NTI as MIT, and if I remember correctly, you guys said Mr Desmond and Mr Jackie were good actors? Or something like that. And how they only exploit young people?).

And I actually made up my mind to ask for a refund, seeing as how there was all these negative press about it.

But eventually I didn't. Not because my upline 'psycho' me not to. I didn't even tell anyone I read sgforums.

I think it was because of what one of the guys said in that thread? Something like 'once you put money in and you can't get refund back...' so I thought since I won't be able to get my refund, then I stay, earn back my capital, and leave lorh.

So in a way, I have to thank sgforums. Smile If it weren't for that post, I would have left NTI long ago.

I guess there will be a dozens people out there now who think that I must have been brainwashed by NTI.

Well, that's when I think you guys can do better in explaining that. When it comes to technical issues, you have all these specific definitions and explanations of MLM schemes, DSAS, CAD procedures... but when it came to explaining why some agents are so devoted... one word to sidestep explaining: brainwashing.

I mean, surely you all can do better than that? Don't tell me you guys are the sort also to believe that Katie Holmes was 'brainwashed' by Tom Cruise to have the baby Suri.

One year ago when I browsed the forums, the issues that came up regularly was 1) NTI is an illegal pyramid scheme; 2) NTI will not last longer than six months; 3) police/CAD will be launching a crackdown on NTI very soon.

One year later when I decide to revisit this site at the request of my friend, the issues that came up regularly are 1) NTI is an legalised scam; 2) NTI will not last longer than 2 years; 3) CAD/CID will be launching a crackdown on NTI very soon - oh please! Find something else to pick on can? Reading the thread became so montonous after a while. I had the vague impression that someone simply paraphased some old posts.

Some of you might have bad impressions about NTI. I'm not trying to change anyone's point of view. If anything, this is probably a one-off post. Someone out there joined NTI and she didn't die, her friends didn't leave her, her parents and her are still talking, the world didnt collapse, nor did her life sank to new lows.

laurence82 SG

its always the same

while i admit some are done in excesses, many had posted their observations and opinions of the scheme to heck in many threads

but the cycle repeats itself

these posts were hardly challenged

the responses were always the same - character assasination, politics and appeal to other notions like courage and all that

it used to mindboggling for me, now its pretty disgusting

here is someone who claimed he called the police and the police told him nti is perfectly legal, he got exposed by somebody who knows about the police and their FOCUS system, by the way, the law do not support even thought it may not prosecute, in the sense, the police do not label or declare any MLM operation legal, they work by negative injunction approach

and his supposed peers? elevate him to an icon of bravery and diverting the issue to the background of other forumers? trying to score political points? i hope lying is not quiessential part of nti's 'professionalism' right?

if you are being challenged, have the guts to admit or deny if you have good reasons

laurence82 SG

decantre

l must say, if only your peers could answer like you, that is, to the point

i am not sure if there is any sidestep about explaing the brainwashing part, but i advise you to read Robert Cialdini's Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion its about some tools of persuason and influence, but most of all, read about social proof and its effects on cults. I must also note, that Robert Cialdini's work is very extensive, based on many researches including his own, and his stints, as part of his research, in the business world

i am sure you will find that there are findings in that book which could be relevations to you, especially in what you are doing now

i am glad you made it, perhaps you are buoyed by your success to write this post of yours

but one disturbing thing, you have based your point on the fact that nti has never been caught

i put forward one question to you - can you prove absolutely, that no prosecution is a proof of legality and ethics, ever in the legal history of singapore? we need absolute, not what ifs

and if these werent brainwashing that attract large groups of people to your company, mayhap its due to the success of your company?

then its not too much to ask you to prove that there are large but not total success stories in your company, by requesting your company to release an audited annual report stating the median, mean and mode income of the agents in your company as required in section two line 5 of the MLM Exclusion Order, which was pointed out by another forumer in another thread?

decantre SG

Are you talking about vamslayer's entry or someone else's? I did not see his supposed peers elevating him as an icon - all I see was forumers bashing his retaliation. Nor do I see how it could benefit him in terms of office politics.

Not everyone who posts here are as forum-savvy as you are. Maybe he just want to defend NTI because, well, look at how malicious some of the posts can get. Maybe he did it wrongly in a way that brought down his credibility. But he doesn't represent the whole of NTI.

Laurence, thank you for the book recommendation. I have not read the book before, so I will refrain from shooting my mouth off about it. However, fact does remain that brainwashing (to the point that you seem to be suggesting) remains a controversial and hotly debated question still.

In any case, I seriously doubt that NTI uses brainwashing. Perhaps you could show us some examples of brainwashing tactics that was deployed by the management? Evidence and paper documents are always the final word, isn't it?

but one disturbing thing, you have based your point on the fact that nti has never been caught

Perhaps you have misunderstood my post. My whole point actually, was to share my personal experience and to point out that the questions surrounding NTI now has been debated before. How did you link it to the fact that NTI has never been caught before?

i put forward one question to you - can you prove absolutely, that no prosecution is a proof of legality and ethics, ever in the legal history of singapore? we need absolute, not what ifs

It's like asking someone to prove that a student who has never, ever failed a math exam before, is a proof that he is a mathematical genius.

[Damn, she's sidestepping the question! ]

No, I can't prove that. If I could, I would be doing my law thesis right now. Rolling Eyes But hey, excellent example of a leading question. =)

Of course, companies like Adobe Systems has never been prosecuted before too. Does that mean they have unreasonable work ethics? I don't think so.

and if these werent brainwashing that attract large groups of people to your company, mayhap its due to the success of your company?

Now this is a tad contradicting. I thought someone mentioned earlier that NTI is going to collapse soon? Or perhaps you were being sarcastic? Smile

then its not too much to ask you to prove that there are large but not total success stories in your company, by requesting your company to release an audited annual report stating the median, mean and mode income of the agents in your company as required in section two line 5 of the MLM Exclusion Order, which was pointed out by another forumer in another thread?

Requesting NTI to release a report... for the benefit of its detractors? That's like Coke releasing its internal report to Pepsi and braying, "HERE; we are legal; we are making profits."

Now being the small agent I am in NTI, I doubt I have the power to ask for that. Smile Of course, you are welcome to try.

laurence82 SG

In reply, its this post.

and this

And no, he hasnt retaliate. So what bashing his retaliation?

Political point, not office politics, which in this case is character assasination, and i had never say it benefited him. Looks who question the background of others to imply their view are not forthcoming. One of the many ancient ways long used since officials slandered Yue Fei in front of the Song Emperor. Laughing

My advice is, defend by challenging the points as you do now, not by lying. Even if he doesnt represent the whole of nti, the battle is lost.

Put it this way, lets just separate, for simplicity sake, everyone into nti and the masses, some include potential agents for the company. Everyone has many choices including choosing your company, other MLM companies or simply doing a job. Your company, has only an aim, to gain profitability. And the only way is to gain through encouraging potential agents or customers.

And if you read all the success stories of successful people, whose companies live on today, they have few main philosophies, which include earning the trust of each customer and the public. I think they understood the rationale totally, and it serve them well.

Some companies I came across, went so far as to set up some sort of discplinary boards for expelling errant distributors. You have now one bad weed. No point just explaining about it, coz the harm is being done. Rather, think of how you can deal with errant agents.

YaDoKiNg SG

Vamslayer could be one of the anti-ntiians, nothing to complain about now so many set up a clone and say “AWW!!! nti people are so LAME, trying to fake!” hahaha maybe la dun quote me hehe

laurence82 SG

which is why i rather discuss the issue than going into the background of whoever posted here

otherwise, the stuff get exposed and it becomes embarassing and contentious

laurence82 SG

Decantre

Whatever you said is the same as saying there is no validity to the statement that 'not caught mean not illegal' often used by nti supporters or whoever they are, to use your words, 'Reading the thread became so montonous after a while. I had the vague impression that someone simply paraphased some old posts. ' and it apply equally to most nti supporters. i think people had given specific points about what is not legal or ethical, and you could ignore those who just simply said illegal.

As to what aspect is considered illegal, i will leave it to Eikei, who had an explaination about this directly from the police. He will give clearer view.

Brainwashing? In document? Huh?

This is why i always encourage people to go observe. Observation is the most valid proof to oneself. i think this had been by and large stated by many. Mayhap you want to go to the first topic and challenge every statement?

And about median, mode and mean income?

Let me copy the law for ya, you could check it if you dont believe.

2. (1) The definition of "Pyramid selling scheme or arrangement" in section 2 of the Act shall be taken not to include any of the following schemes or arrangements:

c) any scheme or arrangement, or any class of such schemes or arrangements, which satisfies the following terms and conditions;

v) a promoter of the scheme or arrangement shall, in respect of any representation relating to the actual or potential accrual of any benefit under the scheme or arrangement, maintain fair and accurate records of the maximum, minimum, median, average and mode benefits that have accrued to the promoter and participants in the scheme or arrangement, duly audited by an auditor for each financial year;

Such evidence is good to substantiate somewhat also your stance that people could be drawn by the real income of the earners rather than mere brainwashing.

Eikei SG

Decantre

Firstly, I am confused by your stand as you said

Unless they read sgforums on a regular basis, checking for customer complaints.

So do you know as a distributor, are you a customer or representative of the company? What legal rights do you have to represent the company with regards to Agency Laws? (You said you are an AGENT of NTI but do you know you are not legally an AGENT as you are not a legal representative of the company?) Do you have the same rights as a consumer or is it a pure B2B transaction with regards to you selling the concept of NTI?

Secondly, regarding the actions being taken against NTI you will know soon enough. Previously most forumers here have just made predictions and guesses regarding the fate of NTI. This time, we have taken action and these will bear fruit soon. Perhaps you'd like to ask Jacky if CAD was investigating NTI right now? BTW, if CID was investigating, it will be extremely unpleasant, just be glad its CAD. If I am that someone you are saying paraphrasing old posts, you do need to re-read all the 39 pages. In the past two months, more concrete information and positive action has come out than the past two years combined.

Do you really want paper examples of brainwashing in NTI? It simply shows you are one of the bottom feeders. I have a document from NTI showing how brainwashing is done! On top of that, it shows all the techniques that you can find from all the pressure selling/brainwashing books. You might want to get it from your upline's upline's upline to help improve your sales.

Whats with silly analogies to sidestep questions? Is it one of the Core Skills in MLM? It gets so irritating when nonsensical analogies pop up, perhaps its a better way of presenting a flawed argument as it induces the reader to come up with his/her own interpretation.

I can say that I strongly believe that although most MLMs are pretty much by-the-book, NTI is not one of them. You want to see a successful MLM that has no complaints? Check www.skyquestcom.com they sell educational/motivational materials and seminars etc. They rank as Singapore's Fastest Growing Online Companies. If NTI is aiming to go into e-biz, it is so far off that the end cannot be see. Its been two years already and so far has it even reached top 500 internet buisnesses in Asia? Skyquest is also around two years old. The people behind it are true success stories, unlike those in NTI. I am not associated with the company in any way but during my research, this company is one of the few MLMs that actually have positive publicity.

Rustyhong SG

As an investor(you who invested hundreds or even thousands and wishes to earn in near future), i guess it will be important to know where the money goes and where it's coming from. Without knowing all this, who knows that your money might be thrown into the sea?

http://www2.coca-cola.com/investors/annual_other_reports.html

"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." - Vidal Sassoon

"Quickly identify mistakes and take action" - Charlie Munger

mlm idoit SG

blah blah blah.... always the same things, over and over again. even in other mlm company forum also talking about same thing, i think i can't really trust the things that is said here.. it is better to ask someone who is doing now than listen to a forum Very Happy

YaDoKiNg SG

Go eiKei GO! please give us updated results of the investigations! Very Happy

decantre SG

Brainwashing? In document? Huh?

This is why i always encourage people to go observe. Observation is the most valid proof to oneself. i think this had been by and large stated by many. Mayhap you want to go to the first topic and challenge every statement?

Laurence, I read your posts. You are an intelligent man, so don't pretend you don't know what I am saying. Especially when you could conclude that one of my posts was 'you have based your point on the fact that nti has never been caught.' Smile

Didn't Eiken mentioned that he was compiling a list of people with complaints against NTI? Surely he or you would have included evidence of NTI brainwashing their agents in that list, because that's a big issue, isn't it? And please don't let it be the usual stuff about how someone was brought down to NTI and told about how good and how successful he can be if only he join the company.

New religious movements (NRM)use brainwashing methods like 1)isolation from others for weeks, 2) humilation and public confessions for breaking of small rules, 3) sleep deprivation, 4) small rewards for any form of cooperation, among others.

Can you prove that NTI is using these methods? Are there any first-person testimonials? Can you?

And if you mean a subtler form of brainwashing, then, well, Singaporeans aren't living under a fucking rock. If we can be so easily influenced by outside forces, then everyone would be buying everything advertised on TV and in papers.

The recent GE. PAP talked about how opposition actually hampered PAP's efforts to focus long term, as they have to spend their time fighting back the opposition's claims. Did you believe that?

A little while back. America talked about weapons of mass destruction as their reason for invading Iraq. Did you believe that?

Singaporeans are a cynical lot.

Yet they can supposedly be 'brainwashed' simply by listening to a guy in a coat, or going to a company for a few days.

Again, can you prove that?

Too simple an excuse.

Also, thank you for providing that piece of legal jargon for me. Smile

I understand your point.

Unfortunately I have to ask you: why are you asking me that?

Or for that matter, why are you asking so many NTI agents who posted here, that.

Obviously the decision to release such a document lies with the management themselves. Why are you asking the agents as opposed to the management?

Because the agents can't answer that. What do you expect us to reply, "I will ask my director to release the documents to prove you wrong!"?

I can only see one reason for your asking: so that less experienced agents will be tempted to avoid the question or be shown not being able to answer altogether. Score one for the anti-NTI camp! They can't release the documents because they are hiding something, nyeah people I told you so.

Ask the correct people.

And since we are on the topic, I do have to admit that comparing Coke and Pepsi was off. Smile I forgot that as a public company Coke have to release their reports.

But there you go. They are required by law to do so because they are publicly owned. Not because Pepsi demanded to see those documents.

Privately owned companies have no need to release private audit reports.

And isn't that one of the reasons why some big companies choose to remain private? So that they don't have to release audit reports that will be available to their competitors?

Kind of lost you halfway there. I'm sorry - I am after all a poor, brainwashed lapdog minion of Mr James Phang and I do not have the IQ to process that chunk of text.

Your reply was kind of volatile considering that my comment was an off-the-cuff sarcastic remark.

Stand? What stand? I was simply saying that the person asked the wrong person in the wrong place.

So actually, that chunk of text was kind of irrelevant (in fact, while I think I got what you were trying to say, I have a feeling you typed those words just to make it sound more important and deep.)

How did you manage to link my remark to my rights and exact position as an agent, is simply amazing.

And they say girls overanalyse everything.

Eikei SG

I'm kinda sleepy now so I shall not bother to entertain your silly emotional rambling. You have degenerated into intolerable personal attacks and are no longer coherent and as such I will not even attempt to reply to you.

I'd just like to let you know something: If you don't know who you are working for, it is really very sad. You said you were working for James Phang.

The Boss of NTI is actually Jackie Hoo. James Phang does not own any shares in the Pte Ltd company and does not hold a directorship there too. Its so terribly unfortunate for you to be so zealous about something you don't know about.

By the way, my nick is Eikei, not whatever you called me.

laurence82 SG

sigh, its the same thing we all had with 'i am nti' or something

i concur with eikei (not eiken or something) and advise you not to resort to personal attacks in the discussion of issues

i dont understand the language of sarcasm, so please dont try to start one with me

Cool

laurence82 SG

lag monster attack!

decantre SG

I have a document from NTI showing how brainwashing is done! On top of that, it shows all the techniques that you can find from all the pressure selling/brainwashing books. You might want to get it from your upline's upline's upline to help improve your sales.

Oh yes, please do show that document. Smile I would love to see how brainwashing is done in NTI, seeing as how I am only a bottom-feeder.

I studied marketing. The books that were recommended by my tutor were the same as those recommended to me as my 'upline's upline's upline'. I have no idea that sales techniques were brainwashing tools! Whoo!

Whats with silly analogies to sidestep questions? Is it one of the Core Skills in MLM? It gets so irritating when nonsensical analogies pop up, perhaps its a better way of presenting a flawed argument as it induces the reader to come up with his/her own interpretation.

Damn, and there I was hoping no one found that out! Oh dear. Sad

Now, in order to sound more expert-y, perhaps I should follow your example and use lots of technical jargon to confuse people, and copy-paste text from law books as if you are the only people who know what law is all about.

No, not really.

But hey, I like the fact that you guys always bring up laws and all that jazz to support your points.

Is it one of the Core Skills in being Anti-MLM?

I think that's a good thing to learn:

Article 11. (Declaration of Human Rights)

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Innocent until proven guilty is an accepted right.

But for NTI you seem to be working on the context that it is 'guilty until proven innocent'. Show us the documents, it's going to collapse, yada yada yada.

Granted, it's not a person, but you get my point.

I can say that I strongly believe that although most MLMs are pretty much by-the-book, NTI is not one of them. You want to see a successful MLM that has no complaints? Check www.skyquestcom.com they sell educational/motivational materials and seminars etc. They rank as Singapore's Fastest Growing Online Companies. If NTI is aiming to go into e-biz, it is so far off that the end cannot be see. Its been two years already and so far has it even reached top 500 internet buisnesses in Asia? Skyquest is also around two years old. The people behind it are true success stories, unlike those in NTI. I am not associated with the company in any way but during my research, this company is one of the few MLMs that actually have positive publicity.

Two things. If you say that Skyquest has good publicity, that's great. Positive publicity is almost a mirage in MLM. Look at Belair, VE, DW, Amway, NTI, Nuskin - which company hadn't been aimed at in this forum? But yet they are all alive in their own ways.

The next thing. What do you mean by true success stories versus NTI's ones?

I probably won't be posting those longish replies anymore, seeing as how I have 'NO TIME'. While it might be comforting to think of NTI people are stupid, believe me there are a lot of people like me in NTI, who thinks sgforums is all about repetitive accusations and unproven claims. And they can reply better than me. It's just that they are more laidback about it. 'Let them talk lorh.'

Initially I was a bit tentative about posting here because I know that once I posted, there will be replies questioning my stances and I know I will be tempted to reply to everyone of them.

I'm not actually surprised by the fact that there are people against NTI. Nothing is universally liked or accepted. But I do find it funny that people are taking this issue so seriously that they can guard the forum for hours replying everyone.

It was fun to interact with you guys, but after a while I realise this is such a waste of time. No wonder someone once told me to read sgforums for fun to see all the hilarious stuff they say about not just NTI but about MLM in general.

I'll leave you guys to your regularly scheduled NTI bashing. Smile

decantre SG

It's funny to see that when I question you and laurence about the topic of brainwashing and the fact that you have mislinked my posts, you push aside my post by dismissing it as emotional ramblings and intolerable personal attacks. Smile

If you want to see what true 'intolerable' personal attacks are about, I suggest you visit the message boards of any actor. Trust me, if my posts were 'intolerable', those inside are a thousand times worst.

By the way, if that was 'emotional ramblings', I fear for your reaction when you encounter a real hysterical girl. :s

Oh, and I do know who I am working for. I was simply using the words that some people has used to describe agents of NTI. So terribly unfortunate indeed that once again you have misunderstood my posts.

Eikei SG

If I got a dollar for everytime you edit your post once I post mine, I'd be richer than your boss by now. You have been vacillating so much in your arguments you can power a 40 watt lightbulb. I really don't know how to reply to someone who posts, then reads, then edits then reedits then reposts. I mean if we can all go back in time and change the things we said and did, there wouldn't be a need for a Court or a judiciary.

It is definitely not a crime to be as enthusiastic as you are but perhaps you would take some time to digest things being said here. Some are of course NTI-bashing but if you read closely there are many gems to be found. Just because you have thrown your money in NTI doesn't mean that you must do the same done upon you onto others. How many people must be hurt for this cycle to stop? Who stands to gain the most?

Most of us are bystanders watching this whole thing play out, both on the side of NTI and on the side of the victims of NTI. We aren't victims who have come here to whine and complain, bad mouth or sulk. People like Laurence82 and I have come here to share the information we have with those who are victims and those potential victims of scams. We came to our own conclusions regarding certain MLM companies through research and perhaps prior involvement with the companies. It is out of pure goodwill that we are here to educate the public about good practices and to make people like you aware of the potential pitfalls that lie ahead of you. It is advice that you can choose to take or not but what you as a person who believes in NTI can do is to show us the evidence that the company is good and is above board. Bring facts. Bring evidence. Bring results. That will do more good to the company than thousand words posts, arguing like a petulant child.

soilder16 SG

decantre,
I only have i word for you...

BRAVO... Very Happy

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