Originally posted by wa|th3r:
dumbdumb.
On your point saying that Saul converted to Paul [b]before
he became Christian, my memory serves to tell me that it is
after he had converted. But i wish not to argue on
this. 
"but not everyone chose to receive the grace." I
think reject or the inability to recognize or
acknowledge the grace would be better replacements. God
gives the grace, freely as we all know it, and He gives it at His
own will and we received it, whether or not we know it. Far too often we fail to see this, and even more often we
take it for granted. What God gives is something we cannot reject.
If you still would like to dispute my statement, i won't
comment.
"i'm not exactly sure what you meant in the whole post, i presume u
meant that there is no difference between believers and non
believers..." That is correct, from my point of view, everyone
receives their own share of grace, just as Christ said, when
everyone was paid the same amount regardless of the hour they had
started working.
"but that verse above shows that yes, there is a need, if what you
say is true, everyone is saved by default, that verse would
contradict itself, which is impossible." Here you have clearly
misunderstood. What i had said was "His plan of salvation extends to all..." I didn't say
by word or intended that everyone is saved by default, but "his
plan of salvation". I used to the word plan, so
that statement means that God plans to save, which is in future
tense, meaning that God plans to save but the salvation has yet to
past but is ongoing and will continue until the second coming of
Christ. But your statement "everyone is saved by default", your
sentence is in past tense, showing that you thought that i meant
God had already saved, which is untrue, not what i had said.
And in my post in response to mCbaobao, i had even stressed the
need to evangelize, at least with some groundwork done by
missionaries so as minimize misunderstandings of the faith. So to
your last paragraph "but i do agree that God loves all, and is
WILLING to save all. but not all wants to be saved. but how can
they hv a chance to make a choice, unless they are given one first?
therefore, how can they call on the One they hv not believed in,
and how can they even start believing without hving heard of Him,
and how can they hear.. if no one speaks to them." This I agree to
all; the missionaries are to spread the faith, so as faith
accompanied by good works may lead to salvation.
[/b]
nono, i meant that saul, received Christ, and became paul, i
meant that b4 he knew Christ, he was saul, who was a murderer.. but
it got all jumbled up.
God gives the grace, freely as we all know it, and He gives it
at His own will and we received it, whether or not we know it.
i hv to disagree. it depends what kind of grace we are talking
here, grace, on the whole, just simply means, something we do not
deserve, for example, a rich spoilt brat being rich, he doesn't
deserves being rich, all he does is make others lives miserable.
but God still blesses him with wealth, for whatever reasons i
dunno, thats grace, being alive, thats grace too, having food,
thats grace.
but what i am talking about, is grace of salvation. that is given
to all, freely, but not everyone accepts it, there is no biblical
backing to say that we can unknowingly receive salvation through
Christ. and Yes, we can reject the salvation,
i know of neighbours, who know everything we had told them. but
they don't want to, for some reason or another.
in the bible, there was an incident, where a rich man approached
Jesus and asked what must he do to attain eternal life, Jesus said,
obey all the commandments (Jesus knew no one can do this, its
impossible but its also true, by obeying these commandments would
be reaching God's standard of perfect holiness)
and the young fellow said he did all those (claiming that he is
perfect, and sinless, which the bible says that anyone who claims
to hv no sin, has lied, which is a sin itself)
so Jesus simply pointed to him, to leave behind his money and
follow Him. the young man was dejected cuz he could not bear to
leave his cash behind, which means he could not put God first,
which is the first commandment.
you see? the rich fellow knows about salvation, following Jesus,
but he just couldn't follow through. and he rejected the
salvation.
That is correct, from my point of view, everyone receives their
own share of grace, just as Christ said, when everyone was paid the
same amount regardless of the hour they had started working.
that parable simply means that as long as that person knows and
receives personally the Lord and saviour, he can be at his deathbed
and receive, salvation is still his. at that time, Jesus was
talking to the people and the pharasees, that salvation isn't just
by works, the previous 2 workers were unhappy cause they felt that
they deserved more for working longer hours than the third
worker.
someone may be a believer for 40 years, and someone may just be a
believer for 2 mins. both die same time. they both have salvation.
afterall God is the one giving the salvation, who are we to say we
deserve more?
there isn't any biblical backing to say that non-believers hv that
grace of salvation, but it is written that Jesus Christ is the way,
the truth and the LIFE!
and no one has any excuse at all to say they do not know.
if what you say is true, that nonbelievers hv the grace of
salvation, why did the man in luke who died, went to hell? he
didn't believe, that was why, even though he knew, because they hv
the law and the prophet, whereas now, the people now, have the
gospel of salvation and the missionaries. no one has any
excuse.
