A Defense of the Bible

last SG · 2011-12-31T01:53:19+00:00

could i reinforce by saying tat its our life tat is eternal after we have accepted christ death for our sins but wads nt eternal is our physical body? so in...

Demon Bane SG

I think you have missed the point I was making. Had Buddhist been delaying attaining nirvana for eternity?

I dunno for other buddhists, but for me....If I have to ability to enter Nirvana, I shall help more people achieve it ....Am I answering you correctly ?

[imdestinyz] SG

Here's the thing, if something has not been going on forever, then it is logical to say that something has not yet arrived or happened. Because the universe has a beginning, we can arrive at today. But if the universe does not have a beginning, then you could not have arrived at the present, because you can always count one more day, mone more month, or one more year back into the infinite past. You cannot have arrived at today if the universe is eternal. Also if given eternity past one still cannot attain nirvana, then what hope is there really? But if someone can attain nirvana, then it means the idea of an eternal universe is wrong. Think about it.

dun quite get it... how is it that if someone can attain nirvana, then it means the idea of an eternal universe is wrong? is ur understanding of nirvana correct?

despondent SG

If nirvana means ceasing to exist then the universe cannot be eternal. Cos Buddhism teaches that ultimately everything will cease to exist. BIC, is that wad u meant?

BroInChrist SG

dun quite get it... how is it that if someone can attain nirvana, then it means the idea of an eternal universe is wrong? is ur understanding of nirvana correct?

Consider the universe we live in. Consider also the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or entropy. Useful energy is constantly being used up until we reach heat death, as scientists have said. Now, if the universe was finite, then we would not have reach heat death yet. But if the universe was eternal, it would already be at heat death stage long long ago. The same argument applies. If the universe were eternal as Buddhists claimed, then all would have attained nirvana by now but how come it still is not the case? The only logical conclusion, and a scientific one, and a philosophical one, is that the universe has a beginning, thus rendering the idea of an eternal universe false or untenable.

See http://www.gotquestions.org/universe-eternal.html

BroInChrist SG

If nirvana means ceasing to exist then the universe cannot be eternal. Cos Buddhism teaches that ultimately everything will cease to exist. BIC, is that wad u meant?

Buddhism teaches that people will have rebirths till they attain nirvana, that people are constantly trying to earn their way out of samsara and attain nirvana, to be snuffed out like a candle flame. But if the universe is eternal, all should have already attained nirvana by now, ASSUMING the belief is true. Why then, are there still people around since eternity trying to attain nirvana? They had an eternity to attain it but yet could not. I find this aspect rather incoherent, from a logical point of view.

[imdestinyz] SG

an eternity of time and universe through unlimited times of rebirth and reborn to attain nirvana is not by a guage of time. To my understanding it is by means of enlightenment. Humans can be rebirth and reborn many many times but as long as they remain not enlightened, they would never have reached nirvana. So time is not a guage neither is an eternal universe a direct linkage to nirvana according to me understanding.So in this aspect, it does not seem to be incoherent to me. Well, if science could be used to prove nirvana and buddhism wrong, it could well be used to prove christianity wrong though, which i assume are what the atheists are trying to do? No offence but i tink if BIC has that much of questions and feels that this whole nirvana thing is illogical, probably cld take a look at the buddhism forum.

BroInChrist SG

I dunno for other buddhists, but for me....If I have to ability to enter Nirvana, I shall help more people achieve it ....Am I answering you correctly ?

Not really. Assuming again that what Buddha taught is correct, then in theory any man can attain nirvana, given unlimited rebirths. Am I correct? So question is, how come you still cannot attain nirvana (not implying anything about you, please do not misunderstand) given an eternity past? Wouldn't you have had an eternity to hone that ability to attain nirvana? Why would an eternity not be enough time? At this point I also think it is rather incoherent to talk about there being not enough time in eternity mode.

[imdestinyz] SG

the issue is not time actually.

BroInChrist SG

So question for you, why is eternity not enough time for attaining nirvana?

Yes, science can be used to prove Christianity wrong, in so far as the Christian faith also make claims about the natural world. One must also remember though that science is also conducted through a framework of beliefs, a worldview. But then again, no fact of science has yet proven Christianity wrong. In fact, it seems that science is always playing catching up with the Bible. Consider just the first three words of the Bible "In the beginning...". Where many cultures and beliefs say that the universe is eternal and has always been there, the Bible goes against the flow and say that the universe had a beginning for thousands of years. And science just caught up with that in the last century.

BroInChrist SG

the issue is not time actually.

I think it is. You can keep saying that so and so has not reached enlightenment. I would ask, how come not yet given an eternity to do so?

[imdestinyz] SG

im not pro enough in buddhism to answer you... but i know alot of ppl in the buddhism forum are pros over there... why not u post ur qn there instead of asking here?

BroInChrist SG

im not pro enough in buddhism to answer you... but i know alot of ppl in the buddhism forum are pros over there... why not u post ur qn there instead of asking here?

You don't need to be a pro to answer this question. I am appealing to your reason. Does my question make sense? Does my critique make sense? If not, why not? I don't want to ask my question in Buddhism thread because I am concerned about sensitivities there. I feel that I would draw more flak than responses there. But since there is Demon Bane here, and maybe a couple more of Buddhists, I think it is safe to ask this in the Christian zone then to go "behind enemy's line", if you get my point.

[imdestinyz] SG

then we can let demon bane answer that.

BroInChrist SG

then we can let demon bane answer that.

Your response is interesting in that you refuse to answer this question from a logical point of view citing your lack of proficiency in Buddhism, yet many unbelievers would happily assume proficiency when it comes to criticising the Christian faith using nothing but reason and logic.

[imdestinyz] SG

because my answer would not accurately answer ur question with regards to what u are asking. We do have to know posting questions and answering questions are 2 different things. Of course there's other reasons that i would not want to answer you. But we'll leave that aside =)

BroInChrist SG

Actually you just need to comment on whether you agree with my reasoning or not.

Pinknutri SG

There are many dharma doors in Buddhism. Not necessarily have to go through many births in this world to attain enlightenment. It is too tough to attain enlightenment in this world, so the most popular dharma door is to achieve it in Buddhas' land. Long story, to know more, you may go to Buddhist forum to ask. (Imdestiny) is correct, enlightenment has nothing to do with time frame. Some people can go through countless rebirth but still not enlightened (people like us who are still here). That is why Buddha said we are very poor thing. Buddha is compassionate and patient.

If you are willing to believe and practice, you can be enlightened in this life.

BroInChrist SG

If you are willing to believe and practice, you can be enlightened in this life.

Regardless of the number of doors postulated, the point remains that if the universe is eternal as Buddhism seems to teach, then all should have attained nirvana already. And as mentioned earlier, I do not wish to participate in the Buddhist forum.

Pinknutri SG

You got it all wrong. Buddhism does not preach eternity. Nothing is eternal, Budda said everything is impermanent and empty. Nothing including this universe. This universe is not eternal and it is not the only world, there countless of worlds and ours is only one of them. Scientists have discovered many planets (other worlds). Budda said nothing is eternal including heaven which is also not eternal.

BroInChrist SG

I think you may be confused between universe and worlds. You spoke of countless worlds (many planets, other worlds) but all such planets (worlds) exist within THIS universe. In any case, we have not have any evidence that these so-called planets are worlds in the sense of being inhabited by intelligent beings like us. So if this universe is finite, and you seem to agree with me (which might also mean that Demon Bane is wrong), then it begs a cause. What is that cause?

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