faith & works

last SG · 2009-01-21T08:50:34+00:00

To be more accurate, the bible teaches that we are saved by faith and works (what we do or not do after we receive and accept the gift of faith). Salvation d...

Smarty Boy SG

actually factually untrue... you don't need to report unless it is stolen. I lost mine once, went to the police station, and was told i don't need to do it unless it was stolen or i was robbed.... at least you learned something today.

but the period between losing the old and getting the new.... i was still a singaporean nontheless....

Untrue? No lah, maybe slightly inaccurate but not untrue....you need to report loss but if not stolen or robbed, then report loss to ICA and must fill up a form one.....

Don't believe? see this link : http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=156&secid=153

Ha...we all learned something new today?

Yes, the period between losing the old and getting the new ic.... you still Singaporean but it does not means that the ic has no value and it does not means that you can go on without one.....

Smarty Boy SG

The question you never answer was : If one deny Christ, can one claimed to have faith in Christ?

And the question I am seeking answer to is how can faith (without fruits yet) saves when it is agreed by all (I hope) that it is true faith in Christ (that has works to proved) that saves?

Or is that what you mean by problem in comprehension and wrap interpretations? If so, then of course this forum is not the place to seek answer but is that your personal opinion ??

Maybe, I will not get any answers on these especially on how one is saved by faith that has not fruits yet (therefore, not proven as true faith in Christ yet)...........

which is why I still cannot understand the saved by faith alone and the state of being saved the moment one profess one's faith.

????

Smarty Boy SG

going back to good works... smarty boy does not want me to dwell on "quantity" ok, so let's leave quantity out of it....

i did good works yesterday, without an ulterior motive.... and let's say God knows me and ok-ed the good works.... i die today.... am i saved?

i did not do any good works yesterday, but have done plenty without an ulterior motive.... and let's say God knows me and is disappointed that i did not do any good works yesterday.... i die today.... am i saved?

i do not believe the intention of this thread is as noble, as pointed out by smarty boy, to learn.... i believe it is an attempt to tear down and disprove.... because as i'd said many times before.... we all do good works one way or another. we all have christ.... knowing whether good works will guarantee the salvation is no longer important as long as good works is being done...

i never really want to disagree with you guys.... you believe what you believe.... if you are willing to accept that there are different understanding...

Your believe and intentions to tear down and disprove of others does not make it the overall intentions of everyone............some yes but NOT ALL. Then, we no longer need to prove to you that you have time and again try to paint a negative picture of the Catholic Church as your intention is clear (as you said yourself).

I am really sincerely trying to understand how we can be saved by faith that is yet to be proven as true faith in Christ.

When you die and the circumstances is of no interest to me. When you die, you face the Lord and He will be the one who judge you. If you want to go on saying that you are saved based on your works and on a per good works basis or per day basis, then go on and try your best to mis-lead others......I told you clearly (in case we did not in the past) that we are not saying that we work to be saved but rather works is a proof of our true faith in Christ. A proof that we are His true disciple that listen and act on His words. That doing good works is part of Christian life with Jesus commandment engraved in our hearts and perhaps, social responsibility as some protestant church doctrines says......and not doing so is to deny Christ! Which is why it is "by my works that I proved my faith".

As I said before, what do you think He will be asking you?

Eat already? How's business? Maybe and perhaps.....but He will surely asked you what He told us in the last judgement.

It doesn't matter how many good works you did yesterday and today or none. But overall in your life, have you done good works? How have you run your race? And more importantly for Christian, have we made doing good works part of our Christian life? Was the commandment of Jesus engraved in your heart that you are truely converted to be His true disciple?

Or are you stuck in the mentality that I am saved liao and got do good works (is because the Holy Spirit is working) and did not do (Holy Spirit nor working yet) and as long as got do some can liao?? Anyway, as long as got do before already can go heaven liao since already saved mah....?? Or in yoyr own words, are you a casual Christian or a truely converted and committed Christian?

And by the way, if one is already saved, then last judgment seems redundant right? Will Jesus be telling us redundant stuff?

Chin Eng SG

Untrue? No lah, maybe slightly inaccurate but not untrue....you need to report loss but if not stolen or robbed, then report loss to ICA and must fill up a form one.....

Don't believe? see this link : http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=156&secid=153

Ha...we all learned something new today?

Yes, the period between losing the old and getting the new ic.... you still Singaporean but it does not means that the ic has no value and it does not means that you can go on without one.....

well, you specifically said POLICE. I corrected you to say that a POLICE report may not be necessary...

sure it does not mean that i can go on without one, but if i get killed on the road, the need for the IC is no longer necessary and my status remain to be a singaporean.

yes we learn something today.... you don't comprehend well.

Ha..Ha...Ha... but why would you not have a pink ic if you are a Singaporean? If you lost it, must report police and get a replacment leh....I think not doing so is an offence. So, always must have pink ic har....no need to bother God on this.

the identity card does not MAKE ME a singaporean.... it merely defines to the others that need to know that i am a singaporean...

without the identity card does not mean that i am no longer a singaporean... it merely causes a great difficulty in trying to explain why i am a singaporean...

do you believe that our garmen, who according to some, is despotic, will revoke my citizenship if i lost my IC and refuse to make a new one??? obviously not, but the garmen may fine the shit out of me or throw me in jail, but it will not revoke my citizenship....

i may be a bad singaporean, but a singaporean nonetheless.

Chin Eng SG

if you NO LONGER NEED TO PROVE why the need to go on...??? that baffles me...

and when did i try to paint a negative picture of the catholic church? I merely pointed to the reality that some of your claims about the church are rather dubious..... from catholic websites....

your personal stand? i don't care....

your personal stand in line with your church stand?.... not really the case.... depends on where your reference is.... and how you define your reference....

i want to state very clearly that i have no quarrel with the catholic church...

i have no positive nor negative opinion of the catholic teachings.... if i had expressed a negative point personally on catholism please show me otherwise you are going on your accusatory mode again.

Chin Eng SG

As I said before, what do you think He will be asking you?

Eat already? How's business? Maybe and perhaps.....but He will surely asked you what He told us in the last judgement.

Maybe he will ask me a question like what Nathan as the soldiers during each national parade.... but that's between me and him...

And by the way, if one is already saved, then last judgment seems redundant right? Will Jesus be telling us redundant stuff?

when did i say these???

Or in yoyr own words, are you a casual Christian or a truely converted and committed Christian?

last judgement? introduce a new aspect into this thread.... ok...... seems you can...

well seems that the last judgement is for all (believers and NON-believers alike) so how can it be redundant???

catholic reference: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

you "paraphrasing" the quantity of good works thing.... damn confusing...

so allow me to understand you.. and if i have erred here please forgive me.

1. do we need to quantify our good works - i believe you have said no.

2. do we need to do our good works without any ulterior motive - i believe you said yes.

3. is it possible for everyone to do good works ALL THE TIME - don't think we discussed this, my opinion is, no. Somedays are bad days, and some times we are unaware.

4. is salvation connected to doing to good works ALL THE TIME - probably not.

5. do we need to accept the clause that KNOWING THAT DOING GOOD WORKS is part of salvation - this one you can share with me. My personal opinion is no, this knowledge is not necessary to salvation.

Conclusion:

1. if the quantity and frequency is unimportant, it's the attitude of doing good works that is paramount....

2. it is unlike that anyone goes through life without doing any good works at all....

3. the individual does not need to KNOW that he has to do good works in order to achieve salvation....

4. that each individual professing to be a Christian (protestant or catholic) does good work some time or other will receive salvation...

5. than i think we are all save regardless whichever theology we accept... or are you going to say that we all need to belong to the catholic church to be saved?

so then, what are we arguing about? if not for our egos....

Smarty Boy SG

well, you specifically said POLICE. I corrected you to say that a POLICE report may not be necessary...

sure it does not mean that i can go on without one, but if i get killed on the road, the need for the IC is no longer necessary and my status remain to be a singaporean.

yes we learn something today.... you don't comprehend well.

the identity card does not MAKE ME a singaporean.... it merely defines to the others that need to know that i am a singaporean...

without the identity card does not mean that i am no longer a singaporean... it merely causes a great difficulty in trying to explain why i am a singaporean...

i may be a bad singaporean, but a singaporean nonetheless.

Ha...ha..ha... an IC don't make you a Singaporean? How about those foreign talent that comes here and got citizenship? Isn't that pick IC that make them Singaporeans? Are they also having same rights and benefits as you?

Ah, getting punsih for not having IC? I am not sure what the punsihment are and it dosen't matter to me..... If it is of no issue, why punish in the first place??

Maybe it is true that comprehension is a problem.....

If you read the link, it says you must either have a police report or need to fill a form. Yes, police report not necessary if you fill the form. If not, a police report will do too.

Smarty Boy SG

if you NO LONGER NEED TO PROVE why the need to go on...??? that baffles me...

and when did i try to paint a negative picture of the catholic church? I merely pointed to the reality that some of your claims about the church are rather dubious..... from catholic websites....

your personal stand? i don't care....

your personal stand in line with your church stand?.... not really the case.... depends on where your reference is.... and how you define your reference....

i want to state very clearly that i have no quarrel with the catholic church...

Problem of comprehension again.............I clearly said that we don't have to prove to you that you are painting a negative view of the Catholic Church.

Accussing you ? Just read the creative contract and fine print thing....

Smarty Boy SG

when did i say these???

last judgement? introduce a new aspect into this thread.... ok...... seems you can...

well seems that the last judgement is for all (believers and NON-believers alike) so how can it be redundant???

Say what ?

Last judgement newly introduced? You sure? And if it is not redundant then why can't it be introduced here?

It is not about believers and non-believers but ture disciple of Christ and those who are not i.e. those who listen to God's word but not converted in their hearts to do God's commandment, those who claimed to have faith (including non-believers).

Smarty Boy SG

you "paraphrasing" the quantity of good works thing.... damn confusing...

so allow me to understand you.. and if i have erred here please forgive me.

1. do we need to quantify our good works - i believe you have said no.

2. do we need to do our good works without any ulterior motive - i believe you said yes.

3. is it possible for everyone to do good works ALL THE TIME - don't think we discussed this, my opinion is, no. Somedays are bad days, and some times we are unaware.

4. is salvation connected to doing to good works ALL THE TIME - probably not.

5. do we need to accept the clause that KNOWING THAT DOING GOOD WORKS is part of salvation - this one you can share with me. My personal opinion is no, this knowledge is not necessary to salvation.

Conclusion:

1. if the quantity and frequency is unimportant, it's the attitude of doing good works that is paramount....

2. it is unlike that anyone goes through life without doing any good works at all....

3. the individual does not need to KNOW that he has to do good works in order to achieve salvation....

4. that each individual professing to be a Christian (protestant or catholic) does good work some time or other will receive salvation...

5. than i think we are all save regardless whichever theology we accept... or are you going to say that we all need to belong to the catholic church to be saved?

so then, what are we arguing about? if not for our egos....

We are arguing (for you) and discussion (for me) that works is needed and part of salvation. You said it is not part and I said yes.

Your conclusion point (3) means individual don't need to know he need to do good works in order to achieve salvation (even if works is needed) ? Why should he not be told?

Point (4) claimed that Christians (protestant or Catholic) will do good work some time or other....... means you still do not recognised that we are talking about total conversion of the heart and that doing good work is part of Christian life and not doing so is denying Christ! It is that important according to your Church's doctrine. Don't downplay it.

It is not about doing it sometimes..............

Confusing because you do not want to comprehen and keep repeating on how to measure and quantify good works etc.....

For me, I hope everyone will be saved and no one is left behind......because God is GREAT! But it does not means that knowing salvation is by faith and works is not important.

It may be ego for you but not for me. I am really interested to know how faith (that has not works to proved it is true to Christ yet) can saves and one can claimed to be saved by such faith.

Chin Eng SG

Ah, getting punsih for not having IC? I am not sure what the punsihment are and it dosen't matter to me..... If it is of no issue, why punish in the first place??

Maybe it is true that comprehension is a problem.....

they get the CITIZENSHIP - that makes them a singaporean.... the IC is just a portable document.....

you DID SAY that NOT HAVING an IC is an offence, so offence got punishment or not...? did i say that it is NOT AN ISSUE? I say that not having an IC does not stop you from being a singaporean.... tsk tsk....

Ha..Ha...Ha... but why would you not have a pink ic if you are a Singaporean? If you lost it, must report police and get a replacment leh....I think not doing so is an offence. So, always must have pink ic har....no need to bother God on this.

Chin Eng SG

Say what ?

Last judgement newly introduced? You sure? And if it is not redundant then why can't it be introduced here?

alamak... when did i say it can't be introduced.....

ok, so.... i have accepted Christ.... i do good works because i Christ first love me.... but i don't believe that good works is part of salvation.... will i go to heaven, yes or no.

Smarty Boy SG

3. is it possible for everyone to do good works ALL THE TIME - don't think we discussed this, my opinion is, no. Somedays are bad days, and some times we are unaware.

4. is salvation connected to doing to good works ALL THE TIME - probably not.

5. do we need to accept the clause that KNOWING THAT DOING GOOD WORKS is part of salvation - this one you can share with me. My personal opinion is no, this knowledge is not necessary to salvation.

Believed that we discussed about falling short some times liao with dumbdumb and it is true we will always fall short sometimes.....no issue what.

But salvation is connected to good works because it is by good works that we proved that our true faith in Christ.....it is by what we do that we can proved that we are Christians.....

One is still saved by faith but faith that has works to show and not one that has no works to show......

Smarty Boy SG

they get the CITIZENSHIP - that makes them a singaporean.... the IC is just a portable document.....

You said may get punishment......now you ask me? Not having ic does not stop you from being a Singaporean but why would a Singaporean not want their pink ic??

And why would foreigners want the pink ic?? So that they can become Singaporean....

Smarty Boy SG

alamak... when did i say it can't be introduced.....

ok, so.... i have accepted Christ.... i do good works because i Christ first love me.... but i don't believe that good works is part of salvation.... will i go to heaven, yes or no.

You did not say but your underlying statement seems to say so. In any case, it is not newly introduced as you claimed.

Based on your statement with faith and good works, answer is yes

but I cannot judge.... because only God can see your heart and if your good works are a reflection of your heart or hair splitting chores.....only He judge

see I answer you and how about answering me back?? Ha... Ha....Ha.......let's see.

Chin Eng SG

You said may get punishment......now you ask me? Not hvaing ic does not stop you from being a Singaporean but why would a Singaporean not want their pink ic??

And why would foreigners want the pink ic?? So that they can become Singaporean....

foreigners want pink ic... that's just a phrase... fact is they want to become a citizen... the pink ic is a by product of being a citizenship....

so you think you get the pink ic first.... or citizenship first?

you said it is an offence, first (in case your forgot).... if offence, no punishment, why is it an offence.

aiyah... the issue is: about losing your ic.... are you still a singaporean? you cannot renew because you got no money..... quite expensive you know, as i'd found out. no money to renew, still singaporean?

actually nowadays, no ic also no problem as long got driver's license, ntuc card also can.

back to my question:

i have accepted Christ.... i do good works because i Christ first love me.... but i don't believe that good works is part of salvation.... will i go to heaven, yes or no.

(edit) ok you have since answered the question.

Chin Eng SG

but I cannot judge.... because only God can see your heart and if your good works are a reflection of your heart or hair splitting chores.....only He judge

EXACTLY! I had said this a few pages ago.... this is the final conclusion in this whole trend of discussion....

NOBODY CAN JUDGE what happen after we die.... which is WHY THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS.

what we think salvation encompasses is totally irrelevant in the face of God!

Smarty Boy SG

foreigners want pink ic... that's just a phrase... fact is they want to become a citizen... the pink ic is a by product of being a citizenship....

so you think you get the pink ic first.... or citizenship first?

you said it is an offence, first (in case your forgot).... if offence, no punishment, why is it an offence.

actually nowadays, no ic also no problem as long got driver's license, ntuc card also can.

back to my question:

Getting too complicated about IC thing and I think foreigner get IC, passport together with citizenship during a ceremony and have to sing marikita one.....But I am not sure since I don't attend.....maybe you can find out and share here....??

"I think not doing so is an offence" is what I said and seems like you are trying to put words in my mouth? Or maybe just comprehension problem ?

Since IC seems to be not much worth here, next time, they may just give ntuc card to foreigners instead of ic.....

Your questions, answered liao - how about mine (asked repeatedly)?

Smarty Boy SG

EXACTLY! I had said this a few pages ago.... this is the final conclusion in this whole trend of discussion....

NOBODY CAN JUDGE what happen after we die.... which is WHY THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS.

what we think salvation encompasses is totally irrelevant in the face of God!

Exactly......you mentioned you do good works....because it is part of salvation (otherwise why you mention it?). God has spoken to us and we are just trying to follow His words.

It is not pointless.....because at least we know why we believe in what we do. Let's see if I get my questions answered......

Chin Eng SG

Exactly......you mentioned you do good works....because it is part of salvation (otherwise why you mention it?). God has spoken to us and we are just trying to follow His words.

It is not pointless.....because at least we know why we believe in what we do. Let's see if I get my questions answered......

i mentioned i do good works, but which part of what i had mentioned says it's part of salvation? if i don't agree that doing good works is necessary than it is another issue altogether.

your questions? i have already told you that i do not believe that good works is part of salvation.... i can quote a verse that i based my belief in, and i am sure you you quote a verse to counter mine.... so it, again, becomes pointless because it will seem that you will not be able to accept my answer (not agree with my answer) at face value.

actually i know what you believe and i do not think i have ever insisted that you are wrong (if i have, please show me). i allowed for different people with different understanding the latitude to get to know God's truth based on where they are today.

but seeing that you had already stated that you cannot judge.... because only God can see your heart and if your good works are a reflection of your heart or hair splitting chores.....only He judge.... there is absolutely nothing to go on.... whether you believe good works is part of salvation or not.... God is the judge... so whatever we are doing now is purely academic and we will not be able to conclude one way or another...

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