faith & works

last SG · 2009-01-21T08:50:34+00:00

To be more accurate, the bible teaches that we are saved by faith and works (what we do or not do after we receive and accept the gift of faith). Salvation d...

dumbdumb! SG

We all agreed that it is faith that saves.....and that true faith is proven by works. So, how can faith that is unproven without works saves? This story did not tell us....

You said: "When the man who was physically unable to perform the works required of him had shown faith, Christ healed him just the same."

It just shows that God is great and just. And that he judge them by their hearts....that they have desire to do good works but yet because of their situation, they can't.

This actually supports what I said earlier that there is no need to measure and quantify good works and that doing good works should be engraved in one's heart . I agree with you that God can see our heart....

"He searches the hearts of men to seperate the truly faithful and those who only proclaims, either through words or actions, to be so."

- what I under-lined and high-lighted seems to contradict what Jesus said His true disciple should be. i.e. one who listen to His words and act on it Mt 7:21-27. Mere words means just proclaims...and anyone can do so. The difference are those who went on and act on His words or doing His will.....and such actions (works) proved their faith. And only people with such faith will be saved.

In any case, I thank you for your explanations.

true faith saves, whether proven by works or not.

if a person dies immediately after he believed, does it makes his faith untrue because he has no works to show?

in the end, works are really for show to men, works benefit the people around us, that's why we should do them.

it has nothing to do with salvation. true faith, brings forth love, which brings forth desire to do good, and in doing good works, people around us benefit, and God uses us to bless others through good works.

God sees the heart, not the works, and He doesn't practice double standards. there is only one standard, His standard, and there is only one way, He is the way.

ChangeCanHappen SG

Yes, my example was mainly brought up to illustrate that it is faith which saves, not the work itself.

However, as James has written, with real faith, so long the person is physically capable of it, will always bring about works. If a person says he believes, but deliberately refrains from taking good actions that he is well capable of doing, then his faith is not real. As James have written in Chapter 2 Verse 19,

You surely believe there is only one God. That's fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear.

The faith expected of Christians is not merely the belief that God exist, or that Christ saves. It has to also come with true obedience to His Word. The difference between demons and Christians is just that; one merely knows God, the other actually follows him.

dumbdumb! further emphasizes with his example: where a person is not capable of action, it is not held against him. What God hold against Man is when they do not have the right heart - for whilst one may be incapable of actions due to disability or other reasons, no one can claim to be incapable of making the decision to love God and our fellowmen. The choice is always theirs to make.

Smarty Boy SG

true faith saves, whether proven by works or not.

if a person dies immediately after he believed, does it makes his faith untrue because he has no works to show?

in the end, works are really for show to men, works benefit the people around us, that's why we should do them.

God sees the heart, not the works, and He doesn't practice double standards. there is only one standard, His standard, and there is only one way, He is the way.

Basically, I agree with you except on proven or not part....

when a person dies immediately after professing faith does not means His faith is unproven.....and we all agreed that even before he professes his faith, God is already working in him...and thus, his good works in the past are not flithy rags....but good works inspired by the holy spirit. And God knows if the heart is true....

I agree that God bless others through our good works and that is why all Christians should make doing good works part of their life (and engraved in their hearts).

Unproven faith (yet) may be true but as you said will lead to good works....and those that don't are not true faith.

So, how can one be saved based on professing only? It means both true and untrue faith saves......

And if it is proven untrue later, then one is not saved.....

meaning, you really know if you are saved or not later and not when professing....but when good work is done or not done to prove your faith.

The best time to judge is perhaps at the last judgement.....which is why we says it is a process and we all agreed that only true faith saved.

Yes, God see the hearts and the works proved that we have true faith in Him and that we are striving to be His true disciple by listening to His words and acting on it. Or simply put, we lived our life as a true Christian according to His Words.

dumbdumb! SG

Basically, I agree with you except on proven or not part....

I agree that God bless others through our good works and that is why all Christians should make doing good works part of their life (and engraved in their hearts).

Unproven faith (yet) may be true but as you said will lead to good works....and those that don't are not true faith.

So, how can one be saved based on professing only? It means both true and untrue faith saves......

And if it is proven untrue later, then one is not saved.....

meaning, you really know if you are saved or not later and not when professing....but when good work is done or not done to prove your faith.

The best time to judge is perhaps at the last judgement.....which is why we says it is a process and we all agreed that only true faith saved.

simply illustrated.

if a person goes to church, hears the message of the good news, realises how corrupted and sinful he is, he realises he is helpless, he ask God for mercy for he is a helpless sinner, he is justified.

a person marries a christian, and for the partner's sake, becomes a christian. he doesn't feel he has any faults at all, he just simply become a christian to suit his partner. thus he doesn't feel the need to know God more, and doesn't receive God's love, and without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.

see? both professes, but at the moment of professing, true faith, or false faith is already established (kinda)

it doesn't mean though, the person who professes falsely, is out of God's will though. who knows, maybe one day he will be touched by God, and that leads him to know God more, and it becomes true faith, and that gives him God's love, and with that love, he produces good works and fruits automatically.

Smarty Boy SG

The faith expected of Christians is not merely the belief that God exist, or that Christ saves. It has to also come with true obedience to His Word. The difference between demons and Christians is just that; one merely knows God, the other actually follows him.

I agree that it is one who actually follows Jesus that counts and that would means not just listening to His Words but also to act on them.....i.e. take action and do the works....otherwise, how can you say you have faith?

And we are not talking about 1 special case but in general. And I do agree with you.

In the end, faith (unproven with works yet) still does not seems to be able to saves....

Smarty Boy SG

simply illustrated.

if a person goes to church, hears the message of the good news, realises how corrupted and sinful he is, he realises he is helpless, he ask God for mercy for he is a helpless sinner, he is justified.

see? both professes, but at the moment of professing, true faith, or false faith is already established (kinda)

Exactly, both professes faith and you can already see that the second one is not saved ......thus professing faith does not saved.

Yet, he could be saved if there is a change of heart and that he is truely touched by God and if he listen to His Words and act on it later....

For the first guy, we still cannot says that his faith is true....his feelings may change down the line......and then he become unsaved?

But if he truely desires God, he will learn about Him, hear His Words and act on it, then his faith will be proven to be not a spur of moment kind of feeling but real and true faith in God. Then, we can says that he will be saved....

So to determine if one is saved or not at time of professing seems to create saved and unsaved situations..... and uncertainty so as to speak.

Does that make sense to you ?

Smarty Boy SG

Dumbdumb, what you just quoted seems real and can happen in real life isn't it?

Let's look at the same situations fom my point of view....

The first guy truely wants to accept God and professes his faith....

The second guy profess the faith for the sake of getting married.....

Both are saved in hope......and whoever goes on and live their lifes as true Christians (one that has faith and good works) will be in the group of the sheep on last judgement day. It can be either one of them, both or none.....The choice is theirs to make....and they know if they are living right by their works....do they really love God and are they doing God's will from their heart?

So the whole process is avaible to them (FREE) and it is up to them to co-operate with Christ so that they can be saved.

If one has the intention of really trusting in Christ, saving today will make no difference in their lifes.....and they really need to be saved on their last day.....so that they can "fight the good fight to the end; run the race to the finish; and says I have kept the faith"

Chin Eng SG

just wondering.... if God is the judge....

the proving of the faith (with works) is for whom to see? who is to say that because a guy did some real nice good work today, is deemed to have proven faith....

if a faith is unproven, it also for whom to validate?

is there a body of theologians and bible scholars to conduct this validation process?

who are we to say who has proven faith and who does not have proven faith...

if at the end of the day God is the judge.

Omnia SG

actually, i do not recall that i said that the catholic church doctrines are corrupt.... if i had done so, please point that out to me. your first statement basically summarised what i have been trying to say... so you agree with me that errant (corrupt) clergymen teaches corrupt doctrine to the faithful?...

Yes I fully agree with you that there have been and there will continue to be corrupt clergymen who teach corrupted doctrine to the faithful or set very bad examples by leading corrupt lives. However, I am also happy to note that you agree with me that the official doctrines of the Catholic Church are not corrupt. At least we have these cleared up .

...change... built upon.... to me these are just politically correct statement.... it happens to all denominations... in an attempt to show that things are unshakable... however it goes to show that there is a transition, evolution, better understand, new revelation... hence change.

exactly.... these traditionalist catholics may not be correct.... perhaps neither are you nor smarty boy.... and it goes to show that even with the realms of the catholic church, things are not as universal as thought....

Universality of the Catholic Church

Interesting comment you made about the lack of universality in the Catholic Church. It is certainly true that worship practices, disciplines etc would differ within the Catholic Church. There would certainly be different segments of the Church having different focus and views about how the Church should conduct its activities etc. I would be concerned if every Catholic held exactly the same views; it wouldn't be human .

However, when it comes to official dogma and doctrines, there is unity and universality in the Catholic Church. Regardless of which country or city the Catholic Church is in, they all believe in and profess the same dogma and doctrines handed down from the apostles. The only way this can happen is because they all submit to the teaching authority of the magisterium (pope + bishops in communion with him). It is no surprise that the word 'Catholic' is derived from the greek word meaning 'Universal'.

Of course this does not necessarily mean that every Catholic is well versed in his faith so there is no need to start pointing out why different Catholics may have different ideas about doctrines and dogma. Some folks might also call themselves Catholic Christians but reject half of what the Catholic Church teaches because the teachings are not 'convenient' to their lifestyles.

As I understand it, the protestant world is very different. To varying degrees, every local church has its own doctrines based on the beliefs and 'revelations' of its local pastor. In my view, this lack of doctrinal universality is the result of the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura (bible alone) which allows every pastor (every protestant christian in fact) to interpret the bible all on his own without having to submit to any authority.

Chin Eng SG

actually i also didn't say (as far as i am aware) that i agree with you that the official doctrines of the catholic church are NOT corrupt.... i don't think i am in that position to make that statement.... whether the catholic church's (or any other church for that matter) doctrine is corrupted or not, i will leave that to God.

i am glad that we agree on the point that corrupt clergyman do corrupt doctrine.

i am not in the habit of attacking of other churches' doctrinal stand even if such stand disagrees with my personal conviction. Note too, that i have not used a single anti-catholic link in any of my replies.

Smarty Boy SG

just wondering.... if God is the judge....

the proving of the faith (with works) is for whom to see? who is to say that because a guy did some real nice good work today, is deemed to have proven faith....

if a faith is unproven, it also for whom to validate?

is there a body of theologians and bible scholars to conduct this validation process?

who are we to say who has proven faith and who does not have proven faith...

if at the end of the day God is the judge.

If you are thinking that you need to do (good works) and prove for others to see......then it's up to you.

To me, this is how I know that I am living a correct Christian life that will be pleasing to God......and to know that I strive to love Him more and more each day......

You seems to be obessed with if a guy do some good work today, not tomorrow etc.... perhaps, you never will comprehen that being a Christian is a life long thing and not a one off issue. Doing good works must come from the heart who love Christ and part of being a Christian (so that it is not hair splitting chore). So what if someone do one today and none yesterday? How does it affect? God judge your life based on a day? Or are you saying do or not is ok because one is already saved anyway?

If faith is unproven, it is just that - uproven and no fruits......yet. Therefore, cannot save yet as only true faith (that bear fruits) saves - something we agreed (maybe not you). If you need validation, try ISO...(hope this is not another attemp to go back to measure and quantify good works.....)?? I think most of us don't need....

We know that we have proven faith if we have good works (done with our heart) to show....

Yes, at the end, God will judge and does that means we do nothing.....?? How does it change (that in the end God judge) with the fact that we must have faith in Him?? True faith that is....one with fruits or works.....

If you agree only God judge, then how can you claimed to have been "saved" ? Did you pass this judgement yourself or your pastor? Should it not come from God? This is not a personal attack but something that I really wonder..... and that is why I have the next question below......

Still, you did not answer how can a faith (unproven by works yet) can save and how one can claimed to have been saved by such faith?

Smarty Boy SG

but you did try to paint a negative picture of the Catholic Church with your "creative contract and fine print" thing.....

Of course the impression you try to create is false.....

Chin Eng SG

but you did try to paint a negative picture of the Catholic Church with your "creative contract and fine print" thing.....

Of course the impression you try to create is false.....

nope.... it was an analogy.... like the car and petrol thing, the singaporean and ic thing...

we ARE talking about works and faith aren't we not? the analogy was not targeted at your church, stop being so sensitive. as a matter of fact, the image in my mind when i wrote that was a protestant evangelical rally. i have no idea how a catholic rally is conducted.

can you quote something that i'd said that was explicitly negative to the catholic church... ?

Chin Eng SG

Still, you did not answer how can a faith (unproven by works yet) can save and how one can claimed to have been saved by such faith?

hmmm... did i say we do nothing? where in the world did you come to this conclusion? i am saying, which ever way we swing, whether we think works is part of salvation or not... the end is God is our judge....

hmmm... i am not question my own belief nor am i question yours..... in my belief, i am saved. my pastor never said that i am saved... because when i converted, i was NOT from this church.... in fact, i don't even remember the pastor who presided that event... point is.... i don't think i need to prove to anyone that i am saved. if you think that i am not saved, it is ok with me, because to me, my salvation is between me and God.

i am just asking a question: what is "proven faith"??? let me lighten the burden for you, i am not asking YOU specifically....

when the term is PROVEN FAITH, i'd assume that there is someone to prove, and someone to provide the validation...

so to whom do we prove to? who can validated if one has proven faith? what are the criteria? is it a self declaration - kinda like: i got proven faith because i do good deeds.

as i'd said, i wasn't asking YOU specifically....

so if anyone one else who can help me understand, please do so.

Still, you did not answer how can a faith (unproven by works yet) can save and how one can claimed to have been saved by such faith?

hmm, i thought i had answered this one....

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

actually gramatically speaking, quite clear.

Smarty Boy SG

nope.... it was an analogy.... like the car and petrol thing, the singaporean and ic thing...

can you quote something that i'd said that was explicitly negative to the catholic church... ?

sensitive? No lah....I never said that your car and ic thing is trying to piant a negative picture but your "creative contract and fine print" thing did.....to me and is not the first time I voice this out.....but first time you denying it.....

If you said you are refering to "a protestant evangelical rally" and not the Catholic Church, then ok.

Smarty Boy SG

i am just asking a question: what is "proven faith"??? let me lighten the burden for you, i am not asking YOU specifically....

when the term is PROVEN FAITH, i'd assume that there is someone to prove, and someone to provide the validation...

so to whom do we prove to? who can validated if one has proven faith? what are the criteria? is it a self declaration - kinda like: i got proven faith because i do good deeds.

as i'd said, i wasn't asking YOU specifically....

Talking about sensitive? I stated clearly that this is not a personal attack so read the reply in context.....

I am not attacking you saying that you are saved etc.....

I am asking about the logic and trying to understand how faith that is yet proven true can saves......and how can one claimed to be saved by such faith.

We did agree (again, maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ (that has fruits or works to show) that saves....

I am not asking you to prove you are saved......I am asking you if that is not a judgement that will be done by God as you agreed?

You can read balance of the my reply (which you did not quote in your reply) to answer the balance questions.

Chin Eng SG

Talking about sensitive? I stated clearly that this is not a personal attack so read the reply in context.....

I am not attacking you saying that you are saved etc.....

I am asking about the logic and trying to understand how faith that is yet proven true can saves......and how can one claimed to be saved by such faith.

We did agree (again, maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ (that has fruits or works to show) that saves....

I am not asking you to prove you are saved......I am asking you if that is not a judgement that will be done by God as you agreed?

You can read balance of the my reply (which you did not quote in your reply) to answer the balance questions.

where did i say you were being personal.... you asked a question about my conversion, and i thought it is only polite to answer, otherwise you think i am avoiding your question... you obviously are thinking about my spiritual standing, afterall you had asked this about me a few times.... so i said, it does not matter what you think (i am not being arrogant, but being a matter of fact)

the text in red above.... we agreed....

so what's the point with the "proven faith" thing?

how to prove? by works, right?

but the proof does not show the heart (the attitude), so it remains unproven, because only God knows the heart, right?

so what's "proven faith", how to prove, to whom to prove to, and who can validate that it is proven....?

footnote: i am not questioning catholic beliefs and practices.... in case i am misunderstood again.

Smarty Boy SG

hmm, i thought i had answered this one....

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

actually gramatically speaking, quite clear.

Of course it has not been replied...I agree with what you have quoted but it does not answer the question.

In simple terms, the Eph 2:8 tell us that we are saved by the grace of God through faith. This grace comes about because of Christ sacrifies on the cross. We all agreed on that and there was never a dispute here. There is nothing we can do (any works) to replace this grace as a result of Christ sacrifies......a gift from God.

I think you must have mistaken that we think good works is used to replace the fact of Christ sacrifies on the cross.....or to replace grace. It is not ........

Salvation is freely avaiable to ALL HUMAN who desires to have them and possible only because of Christ.

To attain salvations, there are conditions (which never changes the fact that it is free and by grace of God) - for you faith alone .... and for me faith and works (which makes that true faith in Christ).

Good works is the fruits of true faith and only such faith (with good works) can saves....

Basically, I agree we are talking about the same thing - that we are saved by our faith in God. The only difference is that we believed that we are saved by true faith (that has works to show) on judgement day.....a process that start when we profess our faith. Or simply, I define what is faith...the true faith that saves....

For your side, professing of faith is enough to saves....and one is saved simply by doing that. I accept that as your view.....no problem.

What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....

Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?

Again, I am not making personal attack or the theory.......I am only trying to make sense and logic out of this....perhaps, something is missing that will piece them up.....and that is why I am asking.

So, my questions remained and I have yet to get an answer .......hope this is clearer now to you.

Smarty Boy SG

the text in red above.... we agreed....

so what's the point with the "proven faith" thing?

how to prove? by works, right?

but the proof does not show the heart (the attitude), so it remains unproven, because only God knows the heart, right?

so what's "proven faith", how to prove, to whom to prove to, and who can validate that it is proven....?

footnote: i am not questioning catholic beliefs and practices.... in case i am misunderstood again.

Understanding problem again and comprehenion problem again.....I said I told you that I am not personal and not attacking anyone in my answer that you response to....

and I think you do get agitated in your reply cause you think I am questioning your personal convictions. I am not.

You agreed that God makes the judgement and so how can one claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement?

Smarty Boy SG

so what's the point with the "proven faith" thing?

how to prove? by works, right?

but the proof does not show the heart (the attitude), so it remains unproven, because only God knows the heart, right?

so what's "proven faith", how to prove, to whom to prove to, and who can validate that it is proven....?

What's the point? No point to you.....but Jesus said in the last judgement that these are citeria to get into sheep or goats.

To me, it is a motivation and inspiration to go on doing good works (loving God) and living a Christian life to the fullest.

Are you doing good works from the heart or is it hair splitting chore to you? If it is hair splitting chore, you will try to avoid them and thus denying Christ.....you may still do perhaps when people are around.....or out of obligation to the church, company whatever....but it is not from your heart. And yes, God will know....

And people around can tell the difference...... like you tell the difference between a sincere person and one that is not.

Why is there a need to validate? Why is there a need to have someone to prove to? Isn't doing good works a commandment of Jesus and isn't that something we need to do as true disciples of Christ? Isn't Christ going to save His true disciples? And isn't doing good works a proof that we have true faith in God? And isn't true faith that saves?

What is so frightening about living a Christian life as true disciple of Christ? Doing good works means sacrifies, pain and discomfort. It means giving (both time and money) and it takes committment. But can it even come close to what Christ has done for us?

And why should works (that will prove true faith) not be a necessary part of salvation?

footnote : you does not necessary means Chin Eng, so read in context.

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