faith & works

last SG · 2009-01-21T08:50:34+00:00

To be more accurate, the bible teaches that we are saved by faith and works (what we do or not do after we receive and accept the gift of faith). Salvation d...

Chin Eng SG

Wah....why so excited? I thought you agree that God judge us on our last day? Now, at professing also? If that's your asnwer, I accept (finally got answer) as you said, can be right or wrong or even I don't like.....but this is really the first time you answered.

on the contrary, i'd said it a few times before.....

and even long before the two post below...

... but the crux of the matter is verse 15: God can do and whatever he wants, and if by that it means that just having faith is sufficient, who are you to argue with it? And if you want an answer to the question of how faith without works can save.... the answer is: as long as God is happy about it, what are you going to do? To paraphrase: Not happy? Too bad!

31 Jan: 11:27 pm

Matt 20:15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

1 Feb, 9:45 am

Smarty Boy SG

on the contrary, i'd said it a few times before.....

and even long before the two post below...

31 Jan: 11:27 pm

1 Feb, 9:45 am

Clear example of being oxymoronic....nothing to suggest how faith withoutr works can saves.... and who make the judgement when professing faith.... Yet claimed that answer liao.....

story about workers first is just about God is fair and reward is the same.....nothing to do with my questions....as explained before in details.....

Smarty Boy SG

why do you assume i am excited...???

i have always said that God is the final judge... haven't you been reading? should i also go back and refer to my post??? a few pages back???

my answer has always been quite consistent.... please quote me if i had not been consistent....

so there's nothing in that faith (unproven) and faith (proven) issue afterall???

Consistent? Yes, in beating around the bushes....and still doing so...

and wondering what is salvation = faith leading to good works means......and the role of the works........

no issue to you because you keep reading out of context and playing with words.....

Smarty Boy SG

The way to them apart is from fruits or works.... yet God is the judge....

so at the end of the day, whatever you think you see as fruits or works.... God is still the judge....

basically it means that regardless of what opinion you have another person, it is immaterial, and whatever conclusion you make of that person is pointless, because only God is the judge.

hmm....seems like reading out of context is becoming a habit....

God judge us based on the fruits / works as a result (proof) of our faith as He described in the last judgement......

Who is juding and trying to make conclusions??? Perhaps you and the contention is really to explain:

how faith without works can "saves" as we (maybe again except you) that only true faith in Christ that is proven / bear fruits / works cxan saves.....if you disagree with this (about only true faith saves), then the question is for for you.....if you agree then explains how faith without works can saves.....

and since we agreed (maybe now not...) that God judge us on our last day (and I keep telling you that He validate us on the last day) and based on our works / fruits as described in the last judgement, then who make judgement when we profess our faith....

and you answered only once and I acknowledge it....and later, I will ask you how that works.....

Chin Eng SG

Clear example of being oxymoronic....nothing to suggest how faith withoutr works can saves.... and who make the judgement when professing faith.... Yet claimed that answer liao.....

story about workers first is just about God is fair and reward is the same.....nothing to do with my questions....as explained before in details.....

correct, reward is the same, regardless of how much you work....

or how little, basically, the issue, you can't complain because God will do what he wants.....

Chin Eng SG

hmm....seems like reading out of context is becoming a habit....

God judge us based on the fruits / works as a result (proof) of our faith as He described in the last judgement......

Who is juding and trying to make conclusions??? Perhaps you and the contention is really to explain:

and you answered only once and I acknowledge it....and later, I will ask you how that works.....

actually we have gone through all these rhetorics already....

but, what i am really interested now is: faith (proven) and faith (unproven) is to whom... and how is it done? can man prove to each other? if we are not talking about man, what are we talking about?

yup, i am also repeating my question.....

Chin Eng SG

Know nothing more or don't want to know more......?? Did we not already discussed about this and what the thief has done? Forget?

yeah the thief has done something that deserve death.... the only thing positive, as recorded, is to defend Christ.... aside from that... zilch.

so quite okay what....

i said he has not done any good works.... you say i am judgemental,

you say it is likely he has done good works, and that is not presumptious (judgemental)???

ok assume you are correct, still okay what.... most if not all of us have done anything deserving a criminal death, so no problem....

Chin Eng SG

and wondering what is salvation = faith leading to good works means......and the role of the works........

i am sure you can google if you truly want to find out.... as i'd said, there are plenty of sites promoting both views....

google is your best friend....

but of course, LEARNING may not be the intention.... and googling is not.... ahem... engaging enough....

seriously, the faith (proven) and faith (unproven), i'd tried to find out, i googled, but cannot find anything.... if i can i wouldn't bother you.

Smarty Boy SG

correct, reward is the same, regardless of how much you work....

or how little, basically, the issue, you can't complain because God will do what he wants.....

hmmm......right, more work or less works same rewards....agreed.

No works equal no rewards as there is nothing that says anyone has no works yet has reward.......!!

"God will do what he wants....." when has God has that? Or was it you who said so??

Smarty Boy SG

actually we have gone through all these rhetorics already....

but, what i am really interested now is: faith (proven) and faith (unproven) is to whom... and how is it done? can man prove to each other? if we are not talking about man, what are we talking about?

yup, i am also repeating my question.....

hmmmm. not we but you........

Ok, faith proven by fruits and works = true faith (proven)

faith without fruits / works = faith unproven...... or in James, useless or dead faith!

How can it be done? Do works lah......and to whom? God will validate it on our last day lor...

Go on repeating and answer is the same lah...........and it only shows your true self mah. No problem.....

The difference is - you repeat questions clearly answered.....I repeat questions that was unanswered.

Smarty Boy SG

yeah the thief has done something that deserve death.... the only thing positive, as recorded, is to defend Christ.... aside from that... zilch.

so quite okay what....

i said he has not done any good works.... you say i am judgemental,

you say it is likely he has done good works, and that is not presumptious (judgemental)???

ok assume you are correct, still okay what.... most if not all of us have done anything deserving a criminal death, so no problem....

You said that he has no works but in actual fact he did and it was in the bible.......his last action is about not being silence and passive in the face of need, injustice and exploitation.....and thus he did not deny Christ.

which actually fits perfectly into your church doctrine of:
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."

So, what presumptious (judgemental)??? Can you try talk some sense or not???

It has nothing to do with criminal death......but what you said below......

Smarty Boy SG

quite a good deal if you ask me, just one phrase and kenna saved.... so maybe we all should be like that too. just like the workers who got hired at the end of the day, still rewarded the same way....

seems for the same reward, some don't need to work too hard. The focus are the pay (the reward) - which is the same, and the work to be done (which varies from worker to worker)....

Although no one asked you, you did reveal your thoughts......(hmmmm, why would a true disciple think like that?)

and it is not about good deal or bad deal lah!......But if you want to be clever and thinking work more or less still same rewards, then work less is better deal....then it is your choice....

But there is NO MENTION OF NO WORK GOT REWARD HOR.....

To me that's one way to tell apart if one's heart is truely with Christ....why should you want to work less (and love Christ less) if you are a true believer? If one loves God, one wants to serve and do more...........not less.......(see can prove what....)

And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God. And God will validate our works when He judge us on our last day......

I have said many times that I agreed that salvation is by faith but only true faith that has works to show.......Faith with works is useless / dead! Try proving that dead / useless faith can save leh.....

Smarty Boy SG

i am sure you can google if you truly want to find out.... as i'd said, there are plenty of sites promoting both views....

google is your best friend....

but of course, LEARNING may not be the intention.... and googling is not.... ahem... engaging enough....

seriously, the faith (proven) and faith (unproven), i'd tried to find out, i googled, but cannot find anything.... if i can i wouldn't bother you.

If that ( google is your best friend....) is really what you think, then why are you here?? OH, I forgot, you did mention you intention here before and your actions is proving it......ooops.... actions proving it.....

But answering that question I asked will automatically answer your question on proven faith. So using google as an excuse is pathetic.

Seriously, you are not interested in the answer which you already knew.....it's just your intentions......

Smarty Boy SG

simply illustrated.

if a person goes to church, hears the message of the good news, realises how corrupted and sinful he is, he realises he is helpless, he ask God for mercy for he is a helpless sinner, he is justified.

a person marries a christian, and for the partner's sake, becomes a christian. he doesn't feel he has any faults at all, he just simply become a christian to suit his partner. thus he doesn't feel the need to know God more, and doesn't receive God's love, and without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.

see? both professes, but at the moment of professing, true faith, or false faith is already established (kinda)

it doesn't mean though, the person who professes falsely, is out of God's will though. who knows, maybe one day he will be touched by God, and that leads him to know God more, and it becomes true faith, and that gives him God's love, and with that love, he produces good works and fruits automatically.

This is dumbdumb's example....

vince69 SG

hmmmm. not we but you........

Ok, faith proven by fruits and works = true faith (proven)

faith without fruits / works = faith unproven...... or in James, useless or dead faith!

How can it be done? Do works lah......and to whom? God will validate it on our last day lor...

Go on repeating and answer is the same lah...........and it only shows your true self mah. No problem.....

you guys are really serious on this....

serious, have to read James in context please...

1) God do not need to use our works to validate our faith.... he knows if its true or not from day 1 from the inside of our heart. so this concept of God using our works to jusdge our faith is incorrect. He don't need us to show Him, He already knows. He who numbered the hair on our head, knows about us, more than we know about ourselves.

2) So what is this faith without works is dead all about? read the preceeding verses from James... What James started off is with this, If a brother is hungry or in cold, and he comes to you who have extras; much more than enough. And you reply him, God will provide for you and walk away without lifting a finger to help him. What good is your faith (that God will provide his needs) to him (the brother who is in need) not God. Your faith is therefore as good as being dead, as far as this brother is concern.

3) what about true faith that will bear fruits? correct, if a person truely believe that God will provide, and truely believe, he will also show in his life, what he believe in. BUT, this is not about showing God our works, but showing the people around what we believed in, and in doing so, be a testamony to the world about who God is. We can tell people about God all we wants, but at the end, its our life that will show them who God is.

I like the way Pope Benedict closes his lecure on 26Nov2008,

"Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God's "foolish" love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love. "

Do you have this certainity, that nothing and no one, not even the lack of good works or anything, can separate you from God's love? It is when we are certain, that we are forever loved, an nothing can separate us from God, that we can find the willingness and strength to live concretely the faith that works in love.

Smarty Boy SG

Exactly, both professes faith and you can already see that the second one is not saved ......thus professing faith does not saved.

Yet, he could be saved if there is a change of heart and that he is truely touched by God and if he listen to His Words and act on it later....

For the first guy, we still cannot says that his faith is true....his feelings may change down the line......and then he become unsaved?

But if he truely desires God, he will learn about Him, hear His Words and act on it, then his faith will be proven to be not a spur of moment kind of feeling but real and true faith in God. Then, we can says that he will be saved....

So to determine if one is saved or not at time of professing seems to create saved and unsaved situations..... and uncertainty so as to speak.

Does that make sense to you ?

This is my take....so how do you fit your salvation theory in which of course will answer the part I am asking how can faith (unproven yet) saves.....

And why would God judge at time of professing faith (which there are no bible quote to support)....when you agree that He will judge us on our last day.....

Smarty Boy SG

you guys are really serious on this....

serious, have to read James in context please...

I like the way Pope Benedict closes his lecure on 26Nov2008,

Actually, I am no longer sure if everyone is serious as some is just being personal and a disturbance at best......

I am seriously trying to piece up the salvation theory.....

For James, it simply tell us faith without works is dead or useless.....If you truely have faith, you will have works....and "It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith"

God loves all His creation and that was never doubted and the Pope is right is saying that " It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love. " For God love us first and we are told to live and love each other......

How else to be a witness of Christ or a testimony without works? I agree that "its our life that will show them who God is."

If one claimed to have faith and yet has no work to show, then do you think that the person really have faith in the first place?? And in the last judgement, Jesus told us how He will judge us as the Pope explained in the original article you quoted earlier in this thread.

So, if you can continue from where you left off, I would be happy....

Chin Eng SG

Expounding a new theological theory???

Psalms 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

or are you saying that God cannot do what he wants???

Although no one asked you, you did reveal your thoughts......(hmmmm, why would a true disciple think like that?) and it is not about good deal or bad deal lah!......But if you want to be clever and thinking work more or less still same rewards, then work less is better deal....then it is your choice.... But there is NO MENTION OF NO WORK GOT REWARD HOR

..... actually.... got: http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm, but this one is quite anti-catholic...

Last line in that link:

Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

Real faith will produce good works, but works is not part of the salvation process as can be seen in so many verses.

did i say we should be doing less....??? i said, the thief had a good deal.... we may be in a position to have that kind of deal too.... based on your faith/works combo move.... but i refer to http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm again.

But answering that question I asked will automatically answer your question on proven faith. So using google as an excuse is pathetic.

Seriously, you are not interested in the answer which you already knew.....it's just your intentions......

what so pathetic....?? i check whatever folks here share.... or you mean you don't check? and anyhow hantam.... but don't be shy lah.... you also google for methodist discipline to counter me.... i ever complain or not? but suddenly, decided you are not interested in John Wesley....

fact remains, that the sgforums is a faceless forum, i don't know your credentials, you don't know credentials.... you may be a theological scholar, a disgraced priest, or a cab driver. who knows....? i may be 16 yr old kid, or an 80 yr old man, or a ice cream seller.... again who knows.... eh... actually not true.... about 3 members here know me.

so we don't really have the theological credentials to go too deep, if i want to learn, i can read up, or i can google (which is cheaper). suggesting that we should google first is nothing to be ashamed about.... otherwise how i know that the catholic church also tithe, or that there are disgraced priests who molest choir boys.... or money grabbing pastors....

i googled and found nothing on faith (proven) or faith (unproven).... so how?

unproven to whom and proven to whom...???

Chin Eng SG

Actually, I am no longer sure if everyone is serious as some is just being personal and a disturbance at best......

I am seriously trying to piece up the salvation theory.....

you seriously expect to be able to piece up the salvation THEORY(?) through a forum?

you must be kidding right?

... but you already piece up one theory: faith + works....

... i happen to piece up one theory: faith without works....

with the diversified views that you can dig up via the internet written by REAL Bible scholars, the verdict is still out there!

if you are truly serious, go to a Bible school or at least enroll in a Bible class, even then, each class will be bias towards one view....

at best, in a forum, only opinions are offered. like yours and mine....

as i'd said before, is it important? you believe in Christ, i believe in Christ...

you do good works, i do good works....

you believe good works is part of salvation, i do not....

if God want to pin the last point on us on the day of reckoning, we are not going to be around to enjoy each other's shock....

does it matter to you if i am found to be wrong? so what? it's my business... it's between God and me.

Chin Eng SG

This is dumbdumb's example....

sure.... it's okay, it's just an example....

however i do not agree with the last part.....

... without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.... can be equated to: people with God's love does not produce fruits or good works.....

... i think you once said, that God can inspire non-believers to do good works... but if these people do not love God, they should not be able to produce good works.....

... note that i am not disagreeing with the individual opinions.... but these two opinions are, imo, in conflict. interestingly, i am more incline to go with yours, because i believe everybody (including non-Christian) do good work, and if one need to put a reason to it, then one can say, that God inspires these people to do good work.

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