hey spartan…
christianity does agree wif the importance of filial
piety…however, to christians, God takes precedence over everything
else…of cuz being imperfect human beings, there wil be times when
we fail to put God 1st in our lives…perhaps u may like to noe tat
filial piety is 1 of the 10 commandments in the bible…it is the 5th
commandment…however, do note tat there are 4 commandments above it
n all of them r attributed to God…since christians r suppose to put
God 1st in their lives n tat they r nt to bow to or worship any
other being, offering of incense or going thru the rituals of other
religions is strictly forbidden…
ok, lets nt qn y did God set such strict rules…rather, since God
said it in the bible n since christians r suppose to follow wad God
has commanded, then r we still wrong to put Him ahead of our
parents when He was the One who gave us our parents??? while filial
piety to our parents, isnt filial piety to the God who created us n
gave us our parents even more so impt??? then shldnt we obey Him
over our parents???
Dear despondant (and also referring to the thread by Spartan and
Noahnoah about joss sticks and respect for others),
Bowing and Joss Sticks
not allowed by Christianity? Really?
You have said that God takes precedence above all other things
and that as such, you said Christians are "not to bow to or
worship any other being, offering of incense or going thru the
rituals of other religions is strictly forbidden…"
I'd like to add to this perspective so that we can explore some
possibilities with this joss-stick and bowing practises which many
Protestant Christians (but not most Catholics) are uncomfortable
with.
Christians in the past used joss
sticks too - but they were joss "lumps"! (Baby Jesus was offered
incense too!)
To me, joss sticks holding is a mark of respect - not much
different from giving a toast of wine. Or any different
from offering of lighted candles, from a gift of flowers
or the gift of songs during a Christian funeral or in church.
Many Christians are not aware that in Christian Churches in
the past, incense was popularly used as a church worship tool
in Medieval Christian church and also in current day Eastern
Orthodox Christian Churches in eastern Europe and Russia. Incense
also traditionally called frankincense, is derived from the bark of
a tree and when burnt it gives off a very nice smell. Christians
and the medieval church believed that the rising fragrance and
smoke from burning incense will bring their prayers
heavenwards (certainly many Christians do not belive that
now).
Remember, when Jesus was born, the 3 magi (wise men) from the
east came to him bearing gifts of "gold, frankincense, and
myrrh (Matthew 2:11. In Standard Revised Version of the
bible it is called "frankincense" and in the NIV version it is
referred in the shorter form "incense").
Similarly, joss sticks are also made of frankincense ("incense")
and other nice smelling materials and happen to come in a stick or
a coil form - not in a lumpy form as when the Christian used
it. But the essence of thing is still the same, its just that the
form is different.
So, when a Christian hold the joss stick which is really the
same as incense, just hold it as a mark of respect for the dead and
as a sign of comfort for the family. You know you are not praying
to the dead, so I think there is no need to be too worried.
Afterall, God is omniscient - and he read your heart and your
intention. Remember, God has also said it is what in your heart
that matters.
On the matter of
bowing
Also, some Christians are afraid to bow to the picture of the
dead person especially when at a non-Christian funeral. If a
Japanese bow to you, would you bow back? Of course - its a sign of
respect. Just so, bowing to the picture of the dead is to show
respect and if this means a lot to the family, there is no harm
doing it. It is not being disrespectful of God.
Being respectful to
the dead, even non-Christians is a mark of Christianly
love
In Matthew, a lawyer asked Jesus what is the greatest
commandment. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all
your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is
the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:
'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang
on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
So while loving God is the greatest commandment, the second is
"like it", that means, the second law is just as important as the
first law. Thus, loving our neighbours as we love ourselves is
equally important.
Loving our neighbours does not mean just loving fellow
Christians, it also means loving those who are non Christians -
even if they choose to remain non-Christians.
A funeral is a passage rite. Other major rites of passage
include birth, marriage, death. Christians generally believe that
the dead is now in the hands of God. There is not much the living
can do. Thus, this passage rite is not for the dead, it is for
the living.
So, what does a passage rite do for the living? It helps
them grieve. Allowing the family members to grieve is important in
helping them gaining acceptance of the loss and eventually moving
forward from there. And a critical ingredient to bring to this
passage rite is to give the family comfort, out of compassion, out
of a love that Jesus has called us unto. Thus showing respect for
the dead by expressing his good qualities, treating the place of
funeral with dignity (even if it is a Buddhist or Hindu
funeral) is important too.
Do we really
understand the bible?
What I am about to say in the following paragraphs will very
controversial depending where you are a fundamental or a liberal
Christian. So do take it that this is an intellectual discussion to
provoke critical thinking and consideration. It is not meant to
attack anyone's faith. Afterall, many non-Christians also ask these
questions and as Christians we must be able to respond to this, not
in an angry and defensive attitude, but with logic if we as
Christians want to convince others that Christianity is a viable
choice.
First, where in the bible say one cannot hold joss sticks as a
sign of respect?
Second,why do Christians say the bible says so, and so we must
do this or cannot do this? Sometimes we need to ask ourselves is it
really so? Are we reading the bible too literally or too naively
without considering the historical and cultural biases of the
writers who, inspired by God, are still human can have their own
subjective worldviews?
"Thou Shalt not
Kill" - Really?
One of the 10 commandments Moses received from God says :"Thou
shalt not kill".
Yet, in Exodus, God supposedly killed the first born child of
every Egyptian to force them to release the Jews (Exodus 11:4-6).
After parting the Red Sea to let the Jews pass, God supposedly
closed it up and drowned all the Egyptians. Isn't that killing? Or
is God's law given to Moses mean: "Thou shalt not kill Isrealites
but thou can kill non-Jews?" In Exodus 15, Moses even composed a
song to celebrate this mass murder. Isn't our God a univeral God -
does he love the Egyptians too? Isn't he their God too?
In the book of Numbers chapter 31, God was said to have
commanded Moses to destroy the Midianites. And the Isrealites
killed every men, but they spared the women. But Moses seemed
unhappy and said: " 'Have you allowed all the women to live?'
he asked them. 'They were the ones who followed Balaam's
advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the
LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's
people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman
who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl
who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:
15-18)
Huh? Married ones get killed, not married ones get raped?
Poor girls!
The Role of Women in
The Church - why Christians don't listen to the bible?
In the bible, Apostle Paul said: " ...women should remain
silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be
in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about
something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is
disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (1
Corinthians 14:34-35).
If this is so, then women have to be quiet and keep a low
profile in church, but why do Christians do not obey the
bible? Women sing in church in the choir, they teach in Sunday
school, women pastors given sermons, lead worships. Yet, when
it is convenient, some churches invoke this verse and say that
women cannot be ordained as head of church? Isn't this a selective
reading of the bible when it is convenient?
Do not Eat Food Offerd
to Idols - Who Said?Who Said?
Some Christians refuse to eat food offered to in ancestor
worship or to idols.
But Jesus said: "....Listen to me, everyone, and understand
this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into
him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him
'unclean.' " (Mark 7:14-15)
Again he said: ".....Don't you see that nothing that
enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it
doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his
body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark
7:18-19)
See Acts 15. The church elders and apostles sent a message
through Paul to the believers in Antioch saying: "You are to
abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of
strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to
avoid these things. (Acts 15:29)
The church elders decided to change Jesus' teaching about food
later. So, who should we listen to? The book of Mark or the book of
Acts?
Christian Beware! Be
Aware!
Most Christians ourselves do not realise that Christianity is
not a monolithic whole. A simple question we can ask ourselves is :
whey are there so many denominations and so many independant
churches? It is simply this - throughhout history, Christian
leaders have disagreed on different issues ranging from
contraception, homosexuality, ordination of women, capital
punishment and manifestation of the holy spirit - just to name a
few. There is a spectrum of stance on each of these issues ranging
from fundamental to liberal.
And I think this is a good thing. When the
Christian church became the most powerful religious and
political organisation in Midieval Europe, it controlled all facets
of society and dictated all thoughts. And many, many people
suffered and were burnt at the stakes for so-called wrong
beliefs.
So we as Christians have to be very careful and use our
judgement. Even the bible say that there are false prophets. So we
have to exercise critical thinking even with what religious leaders
tell us.
Many of us do not realise that Christian fundamentalism
mainly from the evangelical churches in USA pushes many
aggressive teachings. Many may not realise that many
fundamental Christian religious leaders in the bible belt of USA
(the farming and cattle communities including Texas) supported
President George Bush and helped bring him to power. Many did not
realise that fundamental Christian leaders supported his invasion
of Iraq because they feel Iraq is a Muslim country. Is this
reflective of Jesus' message of love?
So, do note that many elements of fundamental
Christianity have entered mainstream Christianity. Many
moderate Christians and pastors do not know how to react. Ordinary
Christians want certainty in an uncertain world. Fundamental
Christian leaders give them this certainty by preaching that the
bible is an inerrant world of God.
But is certainty so right? Is being 100% or 200% sure a good
thing? This means we are not open to possibilities and new
evidence. This gives rise to religious dogma - which
is very, very dangerous. Being open does not mean loosing our
beliefs - its means we leave a window open so that we can adjust
our views when new evidence surfaces.
But do note that there is another spectrum of Christianity that
many of us are not so aware of as they are not as aggressive. These
are the liberal Christian thinkers and theologians. Liberal does
not mean wish-washy, no principles or no morals. It means that this
group have a different, not so literal reading of the bible, and
this group is open to scientific evidences. I suggest Christians
read more from this group, and make up their own minds. Most
average church goers are biblically illiterate (they read a
bit here and there and hear a bit here and there) and can't be
bothered with church and Christian history. And they do not
have access to updated, scholarly works on the
bible.
John Selby Spong is a cutting edge liberal
Christian theolgian and Bishop. Read his "Rescuing the Bible from
Fundamentalism". It is a good starting point.
My experience is that hearing both sides of the story gives us a
balance view.
Last Word
You know, the reality is that Christians have got a "bad name"
among non-Christians for being too rigid and disrespectful.
We think sometimes that we are serving as a testimony for God but
it really turns other people away from exploring the faith. So what
kind of testimony is this? This does not have to be so. I firmly
believe that Jesus message of love transcends time, culture, and
even religions.
(Please note I am not referring to all Christians, but using the
term as a generalisation as used by non-Christians commonly).