Incest

last SG · 2008-05-14T11:25:44+00:00

if all human descended from adam and eve, then at some point their children must be fucking each other to reproduce. why incest is not allowed then?i think u...

24/7 SG

Icemoon: With regards to "The incest law was passed down even before Moses.", could you show me where it was written?

Icemoon SG

Icemoon: With regards to "The incest law was passed down even before Moses.", could you show me where it was written?

It is not explicitly written in the Bible.

But, and here is where I throw a challenge to the readers, if the incest law was passed down only during Moses' time, then on what basis can we say Lot's daughters commited a sin with their dad?

24/7 SG

It is not explicitly written in the Bible.

But, and here is where I throw a challenge to the readers, if the incest law was passed down only during Moses' time, then on what basis can we say Lot's daughters commited a sin with their dad?

Icemoon: I've read Gen 19, didnt come across the place which said Lot's daughters committed a sin? If i'm not wrong, it was matter of factly recorded by Moses as historical and not labelled a sin till Leviticus.

About where the incest law was written b4 Moses, i'm happy if you refer to me outside of the Bible as well.

At the same time, i wonder what would Judaism say about incest between Adam and Eve? And why does God disallow it (after Adam and b4 Moses)?

Icemoon SG

Wah leow .. must everything be stated in black and white?

Your line of thought is preposterous. The Bible also never record murder as a sin before Cain committed the first murder. IIRC, the only commandment given to Adam in black and white was not to eat from the tree. But clearly, murder is a sin because God told Cain that sin is ready to pounce on him and that punishment was melted out to Cain.

The Jewish position is that Lot's daughters committed a sin. From that sinful act the Moabites and Ammonites were born. These people and the Jews buay gam one.

Icemoon SG

At the same time, i wonder what would Judaism say about incest between Adam and Eve? And why does God disallow it (after Adam and b4 Moses)?

How come you say Adam and Eve got incest leh?

Daisuke-kun SG

in fact, there was a 2nd period of incest. the great flood wiped out all human on earth except noah and his family. the members definitely committed incest in order to procreate.

this makes me thing about D.Grayman now...

damn it.

Icemoon SG

About where the incest law was written b4 Moses, i'm happy if you refer to me outside of the Bible as well.

The short answer, from the Jewish position, is that the commandments did not suddenly come at one shot.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Noahide_Laws/id/1924157

798 SG

if god create human beings, pray ask me who create god?

dumbdumb! SG

if god create human beings, pray ask me who create god?

google? because this question has been asked a million times before.

798 SG

google? because this question has been asked a million times before.

none christians or true followers can answer dat? i'm so disappointed dat many claim to be strong believers. LoL!

Icemoon SG

none christians or true followers can answer dat? i'm so disappointed dat many claim to be strong believers. LoL!

hi, if god needs to be created, then he is not god liao?

satisfied?

dumbdumb! SG

none christians or true followers can answer dat? i'm so disappointed dat many claim to be strong believers. LoL!

look up the meaning of el shaddai

24/7 SG

Icemoon: " How come you say Adam and Eve got incest leh?"

Sorry about that. My bad. Lazy to edit jus now. What i meant was between their children.

" The short answer, from the Jewish position, is that the commandments did not suddenly come at one shot."

How is this an answer at all? Let alone a short answer? So WHY did G-D issue this commandment about incest? Gene pool? He felt like it?

With Cain, GOD had warned him about his anger and premediated murder (upcoming), but he ignored. Clear enuf, that's sin.

With Lot's daughters, no such warning. The only sin i can attribute to them is that they failed to trust GOD enuf. They didnt trust GOD that He would continue their family line so they took things into their own hand. Technically, they did not sin.

Grant it to you, if they did sin, Origen says, ""Where, in all this transaction, can the crime of lust or of incest be proved? How can this be proved to be a vice when the fact was never repeated? I am afraid to speak my whole mind on the subject, lest the incest of these should appear more laudable than the chastity of multitudes." There is a distinction made here by Origen which is worthy of notice; a single bad act, though a sin, does not necessarily argue a vicious heart, as in order to be vicious a man must be habituated to sinful acts.

Hope this reasoning's not too preposterous for you, you asked a question. I'm just questioning your question.

Icemoon SG

How is this an answer at all? Let alone a short answer? So WHY did G-D issue this commandment about incest? Gene pool? He felt like it?

It is a short answer because the issue is not so much about when a particular commandment was enacted, but whether the commandments, as you know it, were issued *first* at Sinai.

Using your reasoning, because you cannot find any mention of the incest law before Sinai, you gather that any kind of incest is not a sin before Sinai.

I find this preposterous, because neither can we find other commandments like "do not commit sexual immorality" or "do not murder" before Sinai. Are you saying it is permissible to fark around with other people's wife before the first mention of God issuing an injunction against adultery?

Furthermore you missed the point in your reply about Cain. The issue is not whether murder is a sin or not. It clearly is. It is laughable that you dismiss any sinful act on the part of Lot's daughter just because God did not warn them like He warned Cain.

Icemoon SG

Icemoon: " How come you say Adam and Eve got incest leh?"

Sorry about that. My bad. Lazy to edit jus now. What i meant was between their children.

I wrote a reply about that in this thread. Page 1.

Sumone3 SG

look up the meaning of el shaddai

Trust me, he won't look it up. He's not here for the discussion. Focus on those who are really here for the discussion's sake.

Creation1656 SG

Originally posted by 24/7:

Lot's daughters made their father drink wine before they lay with him. In fact Lot did not know when his daughters lay down or when they rose. Would Lot lay with his daughters if he is sober?

Icemoon SG

Lot's daughters made their father drink wine before they lay with him. In fact Lot did not know when his daughters lay down or when they rose. Would Lot lay with his daughters if he is sober?

Talking about Lot, his is a case of 一错再错. He made a wrong choice when he abandoned his buddy Abraham to go to Sodom.

Icemoon SG

Something isn't right here.

Since when did God promise them He would continue their family line?

24/7 SG

Using your reasoning, because you cannot find any mention of the incest law before Sinai, you gather that any kind of incest is not a sin before Sinai.

The topic is about incest. I'd say that incest was allowed to happen until the time of Moses, for a very specific purpose that GOD allowed to carry on their family line. This act was only allowed at the early stages of history. Until Moses, i'd say that effects of sin have caused the gene pool to break down and bring about mutations, such that GOD puts a stop to it.

Is it morally wrong during the time of Lot? From our perspective, yes because we live in the time after GOD says no more. From the perspective of Lot's daughters then, it's not morally wrong if it's to carry on the family line since maybe they thought nobody else was around for them to reproduce with and because of the effects of having recently come from Zoar.

But neither is it totally right, because there was enough knowledge about good and evil then (effects of the fruit that Adam ate?) for them to guess that this was morally unacceptable. Is it a common thing? I don't know. Probably because other sources outside of bible would talk about Nimrod and his mother. Does some sort of law exist back then? Certainly! As Joseph declared to Potiphar in Genesis, it is a sin for him to sleep with her.

Technically, was it a sin for Lot's daughters? No, because they thought what they were doing was to repopulate the earth and not for the pleasure, and as Origen said, it was a one off incident and not meant to repeat again such that it becomes a consistent vice. Is it a sin now? Definitely! Because GOD has specifically disallowed it in Leviticus.

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